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Old 2006-08-19, 09:45   Link #61
Gundam Pilot
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"Mobile Suit Gundam" had existed in Japan for over 25 years(1979-2004)! This is one of the Gundams!

There are a lot more of them but in different styles!
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Old 2006-08-20, 07:42   Link #62
NeonZ
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Gundam... It's just an action series with giant robots which usually features a militaristic theme for its designs and factions. I wouldn't classify any of the tv series as a "war drama". The OVAs usually are closer to that genre (or, at least, to war series in general), but they are held back by the set up of the tv series.

There just isn't a demand for that kind of series, and, the target audience of those tv series, in America and Japan, probably really doesn't care about that theme. Gundam's success is quickly explained because it isn't really about war, it's about the characters and robots. War is just a way to get robots around while avoiding Super Robot-type plots.

Only after Eva, Gundam-type series seem to have noticed that a real war isn't necessary to avoid becoming a Super Robot show...

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A funny story though is that the attack just happened when Eva was airing, and I think Anno had to slightly change part of the story to avoid too much similarity.
I don't think that's right... Looking at the original summaries of Eva's episodes, I don't see any episode which is similar to that incident.

Most of the episodes which were cut seem to have been eliminated because they were too much "Super Robot"ish, though that's just my conjecture, but it does seem to common link between the cut episodes and scenes, especially in Eva's second half. Stuff like Asuka never having visited an amusement park before, Evas suddenly flying around to fight against an Angel, Unit-01's upgraded armor, and Shinji saving Asuka several times...
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Old 2006-08-20, 08:19   Link #63
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Only after Eva, Gundam-type series seem to have noticed that a real war isn't necessary to avoid becoming a Super Robot show...
Patlabor came before Eva did, and Eva is basically a Super Robot show anyway (Orgnaisation uses the Evas to fight unknown monsters that attack or apparently attack Earth one or two at a time; if that's not Super Robot, I don't know what is...)

The thing about Gundam is it GAVE BIRTH to the Real Robot genre; no Gundam and all shows would pretty much be still Super Robot shows. War fit the bill nicely for the pattern, and basically, apart from terrorist or special op (eg. police) type plots and can be adapted to different situations like a rebellion against an empire or prince of a destroyed kindgom claiming back his land (L-Gaim, Panzer World Galient), or being pursued by your former employer after being betrayed/conspiracy (Votoms) are a couple of things that have been done in the war setting.
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Old 2006-08-20, 08:46   Link #64
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Patlabor came before Eva did, and Eva is basically a Super Robot show anyway (Orgnaisation uses the Evas to fight unknown monsters that attack or apparently attack Earth one or two at a time; if that's not Super Robot, I don't know what is...)
Actually, that's my point. Eva took a Super Robot-style plot, and but gave it a RR-style execution, avoiding the classification of "Super Robot" in the public's eyes.

I'm not saying that Eva was the first to do it. There had been Real Robot-style series before Eva without wars, and series which constantly used Super Robot elements in a RR-style plot (like Dunbine), but only after Eva it seems to have become common place. I mean, currently, Gundam seems to be the only giant robot series which has traditional wars with traditional technology- the technology doesn't have some weird alien/magical/ancient origin- of course, Gundam's technology isn't realistic either.
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Old 2006-08-20, 10:28   Link #65
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If Eva has RR execution, Zeorymer must be as Real-Robot executed as you can get, which incidently predates Eva as well...
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There had been Real Robot-style series before Eva without wars, and series which constantly used Super Robot elements in a RR-style plot (like Dunbine), but only after Eva it seems to have become common place.
What sort of themes have become commonplace and were not before Eva was released (something more specific than 'RR' and lacking war, as I can think of more from before than after)? And what's a Real Robot plot?
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I mean, currently, Gundam seems to be the only giant robot series which has traditional wars with traditional technology- the technology doesn't have some weird alien/magical/ancient origin- of course, Gundam's technology isn't realistic either.
Dragonar, Dougram, Votoms, L-Gaim? (well, the last one is a bit mystical in appearance of some areas; it's similar to Star Wars in many ways). Patlabor has 'traditional' tech, but no wars. FMP is a bit mystical with the black tech and whispered, so that's not included. My list is by no means exclusive, but the ones I have thought of from my memory.
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Old 2006-08-20, 13:08   Link #66
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If Eva has RR execution, Zeorymer must be as Real-Robot executed as you can get, which incidently predates Eva as well...
Buh...? The only thing Zeorymer has that is anything like a RR show is angst. The characters still yell the name of their attacks, the robots only use special weapons designed only for them(without any considerations about mass production), there's even the old "mad scientist creates robot to conquer the world", the opening theme plays when the main robot is fighting... Besides the angst, Zeorymer is nothing like a RR show.

I'm not saying that Eva created anything completely new, unrelated to anything released before, and that newer series are copying it. No. However, mecha series have changed.

I mean... Look at RahXephon, Aquarion, Fafner and Eureka 7... There's hardly any series that can be considered a pure RR show anymore. Everything is mixed with other elements. Even Macross, which used the ancient technology plot, had alien enemies and a musical focus was more like Gundam than the lastest mecha series.

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What sort of themes have become commonplace and were not before Eva was released (something more specific than 'RR' and lacking war, as I can think of more from before than after)?
It's not that they became commonplace, they existed even before Eva, just with different asthetics.

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And what's a Real Robot plot?
The classic RR plot has war, mass produced suits and armies. Of course, even Gundam doesn't really stay close to that concept everytime.

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Dragonar, Dougram, Votoms, L-Gaim? (well, the last one is a bit mystical in appearance of some areas; it's similar to Star Wars in many ways).
Isn't that exactly my point? Those series are older than Eva (well, at least, Dragonar and L-Gaim are, I know nothing about Dougram and Votoms).

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Patlabor has 'traditional' tech, but no wars.
I wouldn't call Patlabor "traditional" either. It is its own thing.

FMP actually is comparable to Gundam. Well, at least, the episodes I've watched. Sure there are some mysterious elements and some weird technologies, but Gundam has its newtypes too. If those strange elements don't become the focus of the show later on, then it's actually a good example of fairly "pure" RR show (even though it's not particularly based on Gundam either, just like every other current mecha series).

Last edited by NeonZ; 2006-08-20 at 15:17.
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Old 2006-08-21, 14:25   Link #67
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You're pretty much right about Zeorymer, that was a bad example. I guess Dancougar would be better, where the heroes aren't kids but military people with a very gritty appearance, but it is a very hot-blooded Super Robot show. Maybe the J9 series where the whole setting is very 'real' except for the main characters and villians and their respective robots.

I must bring up, however:

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but only after Eva it seems to have become common place.
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It's not that they became commonplace, they existed even before Eva, just with different asthetics.
---
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I mean, currently, Gundam seems to be the only giant robot series which has traditional wars with traditional technology- the technology doesn't have some weird alien/magical/ancient origin- of course, Gundam's technology isn't realistic either.
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Isn't that exactly my point? Those series are older than Eva (well, at least, Dragonar and L-Gaim are, I know nothing about Dougram and Votoms).
You seem to contradict yourself, although if you mean in recent times then it's not much to judge things on.

Of these: RahXephon, Aquarion, Fafner and Eureka 7.

RahXephon is clearly a super robot, as is Eureka 7. RahXephon is Yuusha Raideen anew, Eureka 7 is a giant robot on a flying skateboard with a mysterious girl who crashes into the main character's house. I can't really comment on Fafner or Aquarion, so I'll leave it as two. There have been new shows of the old Super Robot classics too.

Your point about FMP seems to hold true, so you can say that that is a recent 'hard' Real type, although with a comedy plot. There is also GaoGaiGar, which is very much a Super type, along with Betterman which is in the same Universe. Also, there is Godannar which is definitely a Super Robot show. On the real side again, we have Gasaraki. Then there is the (very) Super Robot show, Gear Fighter Dendoh.

It seems that most modern shows are Super Robot, with a couple of 'hybrids' and a few Real Robot shows including the latest Gundam. This is very similar to what was around before; all in all, mecha series haven't changed that much at all post '96 in that light. There have always been more Super Robot shows than Real Robot shows, even in 80s though they really pushed it in that decade.

Mystical elements don't push a show into either being Real Robot or Super Robot anyway, it's in the plotline and presentation. Same with angst, where I hear it was in Super Robot before Gundam and others were made, in the series Daimos.

Anyway, I think we've digressed too far from the original topic; to me, Gundam is the beginning of the Real Robot genre but there's a bit more to it than that.
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Old 2006-08-21, 15:01   Link #68
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Other than the philisophocal and psyco-semantic elements, I thought what EVA brought to the Super ROBOTs genre that's different from Gundam was that it humanized the Robots for the first time and in the context of a waring machine it gave them somewhat of a soul seperate from the association with the pilot exclusively. It also brought a strict physiological element to the mecha that has never quite been duplicated.
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Old 2006-08-21, 16:32   Link #69
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On the super/real robot discussion:

The 2 separate types of mecha are quite clear cut in the past, but recently the wall between them has started to break down. Even SRW has officially recognised 'hybrids' as a type of mecha along super and real.

Its either super robot anime getting more realism or real robots getting more advanced and exotic technologies.

Even pilots themselves are changing. Super pilots are hot blooded, while reals have angst, but now hot bloodedness and angst may be found in both types of anime or be absent from both.

Those characteristics of super and real robots are starting to become cliches and because of that, the entire mecha anime has started to evolve into something that's no longer divided by super or real robots.
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Old 2006-08-21, 19:58   Link #70
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I agree with C.A. Outside of Super Robot Wars, there should really be no distinction between Super Robots or Real Robots; the distinction should simply be how relatively realistic the mecha are in their respective series.
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Old 2006-08-22, 13:05   Link #71
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I would say that's juat about true on the RR/SR divide, but don't go on like it's something recent that's evolving. Shows have always been in between the two extremes, but the 'real' extreme was defined by Gundam (the first one), even though it had a load of super elements to sell the kits.

Angst and a dark plot were in things like Daimos and Zambot 3 long before these newer series.

The newer shows look flashier, more mysterious and all of these things; that's to be expected of more developed and recent animation and design techiniques.
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Old 2006-08-24, 22:16   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
If the topic is not given much attention, then how can the story be said to have a significant connection to it?
I don't get you point here. Just beucase a story doesn't put too much attention into exploring certain aspect to it doesn't mean such an aspect does not exist. Neither eva nor Victory spend exceptional amount of time exploring the themes I raised. But they are certainly there. The fact that they are floating in the background in both series is just part of their similarities.

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I think that these themes are either extremely generalized or aren’t particularly similar to Evangelion at all.

1) either extremely generalized.

Define your measurement for "extremely".

According to the oxford dictionary a theme can be defined as:

theme

• noun ... 3 an idea that recurs in or pervades a work of art or literature. 4 ...

So according to defintion 3. They are themes that occur in both seires.

2) aren’t particularly similar to Evangelion at all.

The human instrumentality projects return people into LCL where their minds and body will be connected. Returning into something equivalent to the womb.

The Angel Halo is a psychoframe that would in a sense enable all minds to connect and understand each other. But with the effect of returning people's mind into an infant state.

I can't see how more similar you can get without being an exact copy.


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Nonsense. You originally made the claim that “They also have similarity in reflecting some of the social psyche present at that time in Japan” without offering any further evidence to show how these correlate to each other.
Well I can now see that.

1. You made yourself look more knowledgeable about Japan than you really are.
2. You are too lazy to even bother reading the short articles I posted to get a general idea of what I am talking about.

Sure I guess I can read for you as well.

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10 years after Aum sarin attacks, pseudo-religions thriving in Japan


Noriko, a Shinnyoen adherent in her 30s, says she joined the movement while going through severe depression, from which she was saved by a visit to group's temple in Tachikawa. She describes the movement as "true blue Buddhism," and distinguishes it from Soka Gakkai, the giant lay Buddhist group founded in 1930 that is behind the ruling bloc's New Komeito party.

"I cannot even remember my mental pain in those times," Noriko says. "I would have committed suicide if I hadn't found this teaching. The deep loneliness I had from childhood completely disappeared."

Noriko says she respects Shinto because it is the "heart of the Japanese people," but is focused on practicing Shinnyoen meditation twice a month to remove bad karma in her life. "Now, every morning I wake up with a peaceful heart like a silent lake without ripples," she says. "I never thought I'd live to see the day."
Now the most vivid imagery of this kind of loss of purpose in life is the portrayal of the physickers or something like that. The masses of people that are "praying" within the angel halo. Notice how Uso comment that they are brainwashed. They brainwashed themselves into volunteering and accepting their position in the Halo to fulfill their spiritual need.

Another connection perhaps would be people like Katejina who, although serverly underdeveloped, has shown that she is in fact a lonely girl that just wants attention from people and to depend on. This is shown plainly in the final fight between Chronicle, Uso and her.

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In Japan, Spirituality Search can Lead to Cults

These assumptions have been shattered. Unemployment and economic uncertainty have created feelings of betrayal and insecurity that have led large numbers of Japanese on a search for spiritual guidance. In some cases, the search has led to membership in a cult.

"In Japan moral precepts have collapsed," said Masahiko Nakamura, a psychology professor at Ehime University. "Parents have lost authority. Teachers cannot control their students. Older people have naught to cling to. Nothing has replaced the old spiritual education since the war, and no one has taught us about God or the power behind mankind. The Japanese are lost. We don't have the Christian belief that God is watching over us," he said.
Pretty much what UC 0153 is kind of like. Waring states, failing and corrupted federation.

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http://www.aarrgghh.com/no_way/japWork.htm


Japan has a new word for the '90s — karojisatsu, suicides from overwork.....

Oddly enough, they rarely blame their companies, Tamaki said. Instead, they leave behind notes apologizing for not having done better.

Tadashi Shimonaka, 46, was typical.

Shimonaka clocked at least 80 hours of overtime a month at Hitachi Zosen, a shipbuilder.

The firm had been slashing the workforce for years, and Shimonaka had no choice but to work alone on its rudder-design project. He often complained of chest pains and told his wife the overwork was killing him.

One Monday in March 1993, he left for work as usual. His drowned body was found on a nearby beach two days later.
As you could see, many people then are in fact under quite a lot of pressure and suffered from depression. Notice how all the people , Zanscare and Uso and company mentioned that they are fighting for a peaceful place to live and die. I guess Tomino is overworked too. Like always , social mentality are often reflected in the popular media. V gundam is just one of them.

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What part of my assertion do you see as overgeneralized?
The fact that you base your opinion on the charater of Tomino based on hearsay and excrepts that maybe quoted out of context. I would have agreed more if you say Tomino is smug or arrogrant. But he is hardly and angry old man yet. A lot of things he said are in fact insightful. And the fact that you claim to base your view of him on his work, makes me wonder how many of his work have you really seen besides gundam.
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Old 2006-08-24, 23:07   Link #73
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
I don't get you point here. Just beucase a story doesn't put too much attention into exploring certain aspect to it doesn't mean such an aspect does not exist. Neither eva nor Victory spend exceptional amount of time exploring the themes I raised. But they are certainly there. The fact that they are floating in the background in both series is just part of their similarities.
My point is that if neither work pay much attention to a topic, then it cannot count as a significant common point between them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Define your measurement for "extremely".
By "extremely generalized", I mean a common theme that cannot be easily shared by a completely different show in a completely different genre; for example Sailor Moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
The human instrumentality projects return people into LCL where their minds and body will be connected. Returning into something equivalent to the womb.

The Angel Halo is a psychoframe that would in a sense enable all minds to connect and understand each other. But with the effect of returning people's mind into an infant state.

I can't see how more similar you can get without being an exact copy.
If that's your best example, then I'm afraid that your theory has a very flimsy foundation. The Angel Halo's effect was supposed to be a means for making people remember peace, while the human instrumentality project was supposed to be the ultimate end of eliminating individuality. There's nothing beyond a vague similarity between the two.

<SNIP lots of stuff>

Those correlations are extremely vague and can be applied to any number of other shows or other periods of history. You have yet to give me any compelling reason to think there's anything more to it than that.


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Originally Posted by flamingtroll
The fact that you base your opinion on the charater of Tomino based on hearsay and excrepts that maybe quoted out of context. I would have agreed more if you say Tomino is smug or arrogrant. But he is hardly and angry old man yet. A lot of things he said are in fact insightful. And the fact that you claim to base your view of him on his work, makes me wonder how many of his work have you really seen besides gundam.
Sheesh, is this what this is all about? I never even characterized Tomino as an angry man; I called him bitter.

Based off of what I know of Tomino, his works, and the like, I would very much stand by that initial assessment. While he seems to have mellowed over the last few years, I haven't seen anything to make me revise my impression.

I don't really see what difference it makes exactly how many works of his I've seen, or how insightful Tomino is to having an impression of the man. To elaborate, I don't necessarily judge a man by his work per se, but I do judge a director by what he manages to put on screen. In this regard, I liked some of what he did, and I disliked some of what he did; as far as anime goes, isn't that all that's really important?
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Old 2006-08-25, 02:47   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
My point is that if neither work pay much attention to a topic, then it cannot count as a significant common point between them.
Had I ever said anything about "significant". You seem to always keep that word around. I say they share a few common themes and similarities. I am not sure why you think they are "significantly" similar

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By "extremely generalized", I mean a common theme that cannot be easily shared by a completely different show in a completely different genre; for example Sailor Moon.
Then you just agreed with me that they are common themes. As they're in a pretty similar genre.

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If that's your best example, then I'm afraid that your theory has a very flimsy foundation. The Angel Halo's effect was supposed to be a means for making people remember peace, while the human instrumentality project was supposed to be the ultimate end of eliminating individuality. There's nothing beyond a vague similarity between the two.
You mean the theory of them sharing a few common themes? Well it seems like you once again agree there is a similarity. Although you like to put unquantifiable qualifiers like "vague" that would have really litte basis to debate on other than "I think that way becuase I want to", since obviously you dont' bother producing any good counter point. I think they are not just "vaguely", especially when the psychology under both idea is quite similar. I think they are "quite" similar in that regard.

Even their motives are quite similar, to reduce human race to a lasting peace, an "evolved" unity either in the form of psychowave merging people's mind or in the physical form of LCL

Quote:
<SNIP lots of stuff>
Those correlations are extremely vague and can be applied to any number of other shows or other periods of history. You have yet to give me any compelling reason to think there's anything more to it than that.
What "more" do you think there is. If you read back and I have already iterated many times, my point has always been that V gundam reflect some of the mentalities people of that period. This is not a proof where "My point is valid IF and ONLY IF (V gundam shows this and this AND it happens in the 90s)" . In fact, what you just said here already implies your agreement with my point-that it does have correlation. No one can "prove" what V gundam is about when they are not the author. V gundam is not a social commentary, it won't say "I think people are spiritulaly unfulfilled in the 1990's Japan" on the screen.

Certainly a large number of shows will apply. As I have said, popular media reflect the people's mentality. V gundam is just part of it. Eva is another part of it and so are many more. Again what particularly do you find that a problem here?


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Sheesh, is this what this is all about? I never even characterized Tomino as an angry man; I called him bitter.

Based off of what I know of Tomino, his works, and the like, I would very much stand by that initial assessment. While he seems to have mellowed over the last few years, I haven't seen anything to make me revise my impression.

I don't really see what difference it makes exactly how many works of his I've seen, or how insightful Tomino is to having an impression of the man. To elaborate, I don't necessarily judge a man by his work per se, but I do judge a director by what he manages to put on screen. In this regard, I liked some of what he did, and I disliked some of what he did; as far as anime goes, isn't that all that's really important?
Honestly I don't care much for Tomino, but I keep on raising this to point out your tendency to generalize stuff while not really trying to know what it is. Is fine that you don't care or dont' want to learn about something, but don't talk like you know a lot about them. If I don't know about something and want to talk about it, I will go learn about it. Or, I dont' talk about it at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonZ
I don't think that's right... Looking at the original summaries of Eva's episodes, I don't see any episode which is similar to that incident.

Most of the episodes which were cut seem to have been eliminated because they were too much "Super Robot"ish, though that's just my conjecture, but it does seem to common link between the cut episodes and scenes, especially in Eva's second half. Stuff like Asuka never having visited an amusement park before, Evas suddenly flying around to fight against an Angel, Unit-01's upgraded armor, and Shinji saving Asuka several times...
I think that was from one of the interview with Anno, Although I am not sure if he acutally had changed something, my memory is abit fuzzy. But I am certain that censorship was a concern during production due to the Aum incident.
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Old 2006-08-25, 07:42   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Had I ever said anything about "significant". You seem to always keep that word around. I say they share a few common themes and similarities. I am not sure why you think they are "significantly" similar
In that case, where does "I find it interesting how similar V gundam is to Evangelion" come from?

And if you didn't think that there were only insignificant similarities between Victory and Evangelion, then what's the point of bringing it up in the first place? I could probably find that kind of commonality between Victory and Sailor Moon, or Rose of the Versailles, or Nausicaa, or any number of other shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Honestly I don't care much for Tomino, but I keep on raising this to point out your tendency to generalize stuff while not really trying to know what it is. Is fine that you don't care or dont' want to learn about something, but don't talk like you know a lot about them. If I don't know about something and want to talk about it, I will go learn about it. Or, I dont' talk about it at all.
I still haven't seen any reason to doubt my assessment of Tomino as "bitter". If you have a problem with my statements, then you should try attacking my arguments, rather than go about it in this roundabout way.
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Old 2006-08-25, 15:12   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
In that case, where does "I find it interesting how similar V gundam is to Evangelion" come from?

And if you didn't think that there were only insignificant similarities between Victory and Evangelion, then what's the point of bringing it up in the first place? I could probably find that kind of commonality between Victory and Sailor Moon, or Rose of the Versailles, or Nausicaa, or any number of other shows.
That just nitpicking on syntax. Fine if you want to do that I can as well.

I used the quantifier "How", to designiate that there exist similarities between them. But that statemetn does not indicate how much similarities are there. As long as there exist similarties that is beyond the trivial, I believe that statement is still considered true.

Also the you might want to define "significant" abit. I generaly don't like this sort of qualifiers beucase they mean different things to different people. Must it be MSG-SEED kind of similarities for 2 shows to be "significantly" similar? If that is the case, then I have nothing to argue with you about. In my dictionary, SEED is pretty much half a clone.

I am not quite sure how V gundam and Eva, both having the main plot driver being an organization that is bent on creating a new order through mechanisms that will reduce people into an infant state of mind to unite them can have the same level of correlation as say V gundam to Sailormoon.

I would really like to see you point out similarities between Victory And Sailor Moon in any meaningful ways other than how some of the girls dressed skimpily? Or cite other similarities between those aforementioned titles and V gundam. Give me some insight.


Quote:
I still haven't seen any reason to doubt my assessment of Tomino as "bitter". If you have a problem with my statements, then you should try attacking my arguments, rather than go about it in this roundabout way.
Is just better to point it out in action
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Old 2006-08-26, 17:00   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
I used the quantifier "How", to designiate that there exist similarities between them. But that statemetn does not indicate how much similarities are there. As long as there exist similarties that is beyond the trivial, I believe that statement is still considered true.
Normally, when someone says "It's interesting how similar A is to B", they're talking about significant similarities between the two. After all, it's hardly "interesting" to find insignificant associations between things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Also the you might want to define "significant" abit. I generaly don't like this sort of qualifiers beucase they mean different things to different people. Must it be MSG-SEED kind of similarities for 2 shows to be "significantly" similar? If that is the case, then I have nothing to argue with you about. In my dictionary, SEED is pretty much half a clone.
It's not my definition that's really in question. It's how you justify saying "A is similar to B". If you're not even trying to claim that there's any significant (read meaningful) similarities between them, then does it not render your entire argument moot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
I am not quite sure how V gundam and Eva, both having the main plot driver being an organization that is bent on creating a new order through mechanisms that will reduce people into an infant state of mind to unite them can have the same level of correlation as say V gundam to Sailormoon.
Your interpretation is incorrect. Seele in Eva was trying to eliminate individuality, while the real leaders of Zanscare were just in it to gain power and to stifle dissent.

My point is that there aren't any real similarities between Sailor Moon and Victory. I'm sure that if I tried hard enough, I could find some convoluted argument to show some, but that's called desperation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Quote:
I still haven't seen any reason to doubt my assessment of Tomino as "bitter". If you have a problem with my statements, then you should try attacking my arguments, rather than go about it in this roundabout way.
Is just better to point it out in action
Actually, this is a tactic normally just used by people who don't have any real arguments themselves.
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Old 2006-08-28, 15:03   Link #78
flamingtroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Normally, when someone says "It's interesting how similar A is to B", they're talking about significant similarities between the two. After all, it's hardly "interesting" to find insignificant associations between things.
Well I find the point I raised interesting enough. Funny you still have
provide any read arguments . You cliam that those "insignificant" similarities can be found in various other show. Why don't you show me how it is?

Quote:
It's not my definition that's really in question. It's how you justify saying "A is similar to B". If you're not even trying to claim that there's any significant (read meaningful) similarities between them, then does it not render your entire argument moot?
Well it seems like my "significance" is different from your significance, so I try to not use such a word. Significance is in the eye of the beholder. It is based on their knowledge and experience regarding the subject in discussion. To me, the similarities I point out is significant enough. Therefore, I use the word "some" to be as quantifiable as possible throughout the argument . My arugment isnt moot, beucase my arguement was never "there was 'significant' similarities" in whatever you want as "significance".

If you dont' find the significance, then I don't see why you have to
1. force such a word into my argument and make straw-man arugments.
2. response and OBJECT to a topic that isn't of any significance to you as if you are saying "no your significance is invalid beucase I don't find signficance in it"


Quote:
Your interpretation is incorrect. Seele in Eva was trying to eliminate individuality, while the real leaders of Zanscare were just in it to gain power and to stifle dissent.
Are you trying to make a joke here? "interpretation is incorrect" is almost an oxymoron. What makes your "interpretation" anymore correct?

Just to entertain you with more evidence anyway,

The main architect of Angel Halo, the old guy that was pulling the strings at the back, such as putting Maria as a puppet figure such, has already spoken his real intention in the show near the end, which almost has the same vibe as Lorenz of Seele. Even in Eva we see various people using the situation to achieve thier various objectives. I could look up the episodes and quote them, if that is really needed.

Quote:
My point is that there aren't any real similarities between Sailor Moon and Victory. I'm sure that if I tried hard enough, I could find some convoluted argument to show some, but that's called desperation.
Of course it will be convoluted, beucase that entire statement is just an empty slippery slope, that doesnt even have much of a basis to build on. And even if you did find non trivial similarities, that does not invalidate the statement that Eva is similar to V gundam. So in essence, your "point" is no point at all.

Quote:
Actually, this is a tactic normally just used by people who don't have any real arguments themselves.
It works for hypocrites who pretend they know what they are talking about, and can only cite as much as stardestroyer.net can offer.
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Old 2006-08-28, 16:57   Link #79
Demongod86
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Why the bashing on SD Gundam Force? Chibi Wing Zero is absolute winsauce, and that's that!
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Old 2006-08-29, 22:27   Link #80
4Tran
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I finally found it! This link sums up most of my arguments in an amusing format:
http://www.eyrie.org/~dvandom/misc/Gundam.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Are you trying to make a joke here? "interpretation is incorrect" is almost an oxymoron. What makes your "interpretation" anymore correct?
It's entirely possible for an interpretation to be incorrect. Obviously, one that isn't supported by the evidence is of questionable worth at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
The main architect of Angel Halo, the old guy that was pulling the strings at the back, such as putting Maria as a puppet figure such, has already spoken his real intention in the show near the end, which almost has the same vibe as Lorenz of Seele. Even in Eva we see various people using the situation to achieve thier various objectives. I could look up the episodes and quote them, if that is really needed.
This is incorrect. Kapatie wasn't interested in any of that touchy-feely stuff; he was just in it for power and control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingtroll
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Actually, this is a tactic normally just used by people who don't have any real arguments themselves.
It works for hypocrites who pretend they know what they are talking about, and can only cite as much as stardestroyer.net can offer.
Excellent. You've just illustrated my point perfectly.
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