AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Air

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-08-25, 06:38   Link #61
Rengemaru
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the Garden...
Age: 29
Personaly I was considering buying the Blu-ray edition of AIR but since I still don't know Japanese and chances that getting an English sub are slim, I dropped the idea and planned on buying a DS lite >.>;
__________________
Grains of Knowledge:
Life requires a high demand of the mighty M skill.
Rengemaru is offline  
Old 2006-08-28, 03:09   Link #62
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
It's not worth buying, the difference is marginal at best. Throwing more bitrates doesn't automatically make it better when the studio in question still doesn't know how to optimise the encoding process.

Plus I don't want to support Blu-ray when it is pretty clear that at this moment in time Blu-ray technology is still a lot of empty promises which has yet to delivered (50G movie disks, h264 encoding etc) and is just trying to make money off ignorant people.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-28, 10:03   Link #63
andiyar
wingéd prettygirl
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to andiyar Send a message via MSN to andiyar
@ houkoholic

On the one hand (assuming you've bought the LE/other DVDs) I am in complete agreement. However, for those of us who have yet to buy Air in any form, I suggest you look hard at the comparative pricing. True, this presupposes that such of us will be buying a Blu-ray player. But, if you think that the anime industry, both R2 & R1 (for the current regions) won't adopt HD, well... think again.

Personally, I have every intention of getting a Blu-ray drive for my computer, simply because of the backup potential. No, I won't be buying one until media and drives are at a more suitable price point. But then, that's what I said for DVDs as well, and I picked up an external DVD burner for my laptop a year or two ago (16x RW-DL) and can now buy disks for what, fifty cents each Australian. Blu-ray will hit that point too, you can count on it. It'll just be a matter of time.

Oh, and in reference again to the pricing - Air on Blu-ray (for slightly better video, box set) is costing ~¥30000. Air on DVD (without the pretty art box, nor the 'extra HD footage') was ¥5700 or so for the limited editions. Multiply that out, and you'll see the 'saving' inherent here.

Admittedly, I can see that people with the DVDs would have effectively no reason to buy AIR on Blu-ray without a proper HD encode. But, for those of us who don't yet have it, and who fully intend to invest in Blu-ray in the not too distant future - well, from that perspective, it's not a bad idea.


-Andiyar
__________________
"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"
andiyar is offline  
Old 2006-08-28, 10:58   Link #64
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
andiyar

I know anime is going HD just like all other shows, but that is not a reason to blindly support BR IMNSHO. Especially after seeing BR demos like AIR, GitS etc at the Tokyo Anime Festival in person I definitely do not see the cost/benefit in becoming an early adopter and supporter of BR.

I also know perfectly well that the BR set is cheaper than the DVD collection, but I'm just not willing to support BR due to the reasons I've stated in my previous post. I do not want half-ass beta-like products to get my money and win market share (and in turn the format war) period. Currently all reviews points to HD-DVD being the superior (better and more efficient VC-1 codec vs mpeg2 on BR, and more space with dual-layer 30G vs 25G BR disk) AND being a cheaper format (cheaper player at almost half the price) to support, and I really wish anime companies would try to release their contents on the (currently) cheaper and (currently) better HD-DVD and that's the stance I'm going to take - by not buying any BR product until they can show to me that it is the superior format which they have been preaching and not the other way around. Until then, I'll stick with DVD and my up-converting DVD player.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 04:21   Link #65
andiyar
wingéd prettygirl
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to andiyar Send a message via MSN to andiyar
Quote:
I know anime is going HD just like all other shows, but that is not a reason to blindly support BR IMNSHO. Especially after seeing BR demos like AIR, GitS etc at the Tokyo Anime Festival in person I definitely do not see the cost/benefit in becoming an early adopter and supporter of BR.
Points granted. I don't 'blindly' support Blu-ray, I support it rather less than blindly - but most definitely not in an early adopter sense. I won't be getting any Blu-ray hardware until sometime in 2007 at the earliest.


Quote:
I also know perfectly well that the BR set is cheaper than the DVD collection, but I'm just not willing to support BR due to the reasons I've stated in my previous post. I do not want half-ass beta-like products to get my money and win market share (and in turn the format war) period.

Which is fair enough. However, in regards to your previous posting (about the lack of 50GB disks and the lack of H.264 support)

• VC-1, which you're citing as better and more efficient, is in no way AVC. VC-1 should never have happened. It's only included in the HD spec of both formats (yes, it's in both) in order to have Microsoft on board, as they kicked up as stink... wow, nearly two years ago? about the lack of a WMV-based codec in the HD selection. And, since my opinion of WMV is, oh, very very low, I could care less about a lack of VC-1. Now, a lack of AVC support... that would make me rather irate. But neither Blu-ray nor HD-DVD lack AVC.

• 50GB disks are definitely available. In movie format? I'm not sure as of yet, so I'll grant you that. But looking back at the launch of DVD - how long was it before dual-layer DVD's became available at all, let alone widespread? It definitely took a while. And Sony is shipping DL-Blu-ray media right now. If they can provide it to the home market, I'd be rather surprised if the studios/content producers can't get their hands on it.

Quote:
Currently all reviews points to HD-DVD being the superior (better and more efficient VC-1 codec vs mpeg2 on BR, and more space with dual-layer 30G vs 25G BR disk) AND being a cheaper format (cheaper player at almost half the price) to support, and I really wish anime companies would try to release their contents on the (currently) cheaper and (currently) better HD-DVD and that's the stance I'm going to take - by not buying any BR product until they can show to me that it is the superior format which they have been preaching and not the other way around. Until then, I'll stick with DVD and my up-converting DVD player.

I'm actually curious here, as a search and a memory think (~_^) can't turn up the answer: are any HD titles (HD-DVD specifically) authored in VC-1/AVC yet? As in available market titles, not upcomings or demoes? I honestly can't remember. I'm sure that Blu-ray isn't yet, I seem to recall that the disks released so far have been MPEG-2. Which is quite capable of doing HD video, it just requires a great deal more disk space. I assume that a proper encode set will be released in the near future, unless Sony really are trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The current player lineup and its cost, as you have touched on, aren't exactly reassuring.

But then, as I stated earlier, I'm not specifically an early adopter. Yes, I'm buying Air on Blu-ray (unless I change my mind vis-a-vis the HD issue - in either sense, I'll pick up Kanon HD, which I'll bet will be Blu-ray, not HD-DVD), so in that sense I'll be buying a Blu-ray device of some kind. Which kind? As I mentioned before, guaranteed I'll buy a Blu-ray burner for my computer. And that's a point in Blu-ray's favour, every single large computer manufacturer is currently in the BDA. Will that help Blu-ray in the home entertainment space?

Perhaps. It's more likely for those who watch their movies on their computers to want to be able to watch them on the TV too, I'd guess. Especially if Sony does manage to pull a nice trick with the PS3, which is a somewhat chancy issue. But there'll be, in the not-too-distant future, millions of PCs shipping with Blu-ray burners built in. And that comes down to how I see Blu-ray at the moment - I view it primarily as a data storage/backup medium, with the added bonus of being able to play HD content with it. In that regard, it's superior to HD-DVD.

*shrug*. Your mileage may vary. But I'll be buying Air on Blu-ray in October, simply because I will be Blu-ray capable at some point in the near future, and as such, it makes sense for me to buy it in this format rather than pay the extra hundred thousand odd yen for the R2 DVDs.


-Andiyar
__________________
"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"
andiyar is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 05:06   Link #66
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by andiyar
• VC-1, which you're citing as better and more efficient, is in no way AVC. VC-1 should never have happened. It's only included in the HD spec of both formats (yes, it's in both) in order to have Microsoft on board, as they kicked up as stink... wow, nearly two years ago? about the lack of a WMV-based codec in the HD selection. And, since my opinion of WMV is, oh, very very low, I could care less about a lack of VC-1. Now, a lack of AVC support... that would make me rather irate. But neither Blu-ray nor HD-DVD lack AVC.
Well except for the whole "Microsoft is EVIL DRM" thing, HD video done in WMV is actually very very nice. I was surprised how much better looking HD video is compressed in WMV as compared with say, DivX. For example, videos avaiable via XBox Live for the XBox 360 are done in WMV, and they do look very good.

Quote:
• 50GB disks are definitely available. In movie format? I'm not sure as of yet, so I'll grant you that.
Dual layer 50GB BD-R are available, but dual layer BD movie disk are not. Sounds silly I know since you would expect pressing ROM disks will be easier than making writable disk, but that's actually how it is right now.

Quote:
But looking back at the launch of DVD - how long was it before dual-layer DVD's became available at all, let alone widespread? It definitely took a while. And Sony is shipping DL-Blu-ray media right now. If they can provide it to the home market, I'd be rather surprised if the studios/content producers can't get their hands on it.
Yes, but at that time DVD wasn't trying to win a format war.
My beef is that Sony is using "but our format is *going* to be better" tactic to stomp out the other format while not actually delivering what it claims it can do *as of this current moment*, whereas something better is actually available right now. It would be a real shame when something better and cheaper loses out because of empty promises which they may or may not deliever in the future. I mean I don't see how greedy companies would have any incentive to produce better products when there is no competition in the market place. On the same token and hypothetically speaking, if Blu-Ray wins on hype alone, I don't see them moving onto dual-layers and new codecs anytime soon, just like how Sony came out and said mpeg2 is good enough.

Quote:
I'm actually curious here, as a search and a memory think (~_^) can't turn up the answer: are any HD titles (HD-DVD specifically) authored in VC-1/AVC yet? As in available market titles, not upcomings or demoes? I honestly can't remember. I'm sure that Blu-ray isn't yet, I seem to recall that the disks released so far have been MPEG-2. Which is quite capable of doing HD video, it just requires a great deal more disk space. I assume that a proper encode set will be released in the near future, unless Sony really are trying to shoot themselves in the foot. The current player lineup and its cost, as you have touched on, aren't exactly reassuring.
And this is the real kicker. Currently all HD-DVD titles are encoded in VC-1, whereas BR are all done in mpeg2. The majority of these HD-DVD titles are also released on dual layer 30G disks, whereas BR are still on single 25G disks, so HD-DVD right now actually has both a more efficient codec AND more space compared with BR releases. This is entirely the reason why all video reviews comparing the same title released on HD-DVD and BR has HD-DVD coming out on top in the video quality department. BR really needs to deliever on their promise of AVC/h.264 and dual layer very soon for movie releases to conivince me that it is indeed not just relying on hyped specs to win the format war.

Quote:
But then, as I stated earlier, I'm not specifically an early adopter. Yes, I'm buying Air on Blu-ray (unless I change my mind vis-a-vis the HD issue - in either sense, I'll pick up Kanon HD, which I'll bet will be Blu-ray, not HD-DVD), so in that sense I'll be buying a Blu-ray device of some kind. Which kind? As I mentioned before, guaranteed I'll buy a Blu-ray burner for my computer. And that's a point in Blu-ray's favour, every single large computer manufacturer is currently in the BDA. Will that help Blu-ray in the home entertainment space?
I really hope that won't be the case. IMO the storage angle should be separated from the movie format angle. I want HD content be released on the format which is better suited to deliver it at the right cost and quality, and as I pointed out now, HD-DVD is the way to go.

Currently I really wish that Kanon will get the HD-DVD treatment due to the reasons I've already stated, because I'm seeking for the best quality possible to watch these shows. Unless, again if BR delievers on their promised spec of dual-layer AVC, but that is just still a big "if" and "when".

Quote:
Perhaps. It's more likely for those who watch their movies on their computers to want to be able to watch them on the TV too, I'd guess. Especially if Sony does manage to pull a nice trick with the PS3, which is a somewhat chancy issue. But there'll be, in the not-too-distant future, millions of PCs shipping with Blu-ray burners built in. And that comes down to how I see Blu-ray at the moment - I view it primarily as a data storage/backup medium, with the added bonus of being able to play HD content with it. In that regard, it's superior to HD-DVD.
My reasoning is exactly the opposite because I'm viewing it from purely the HD content angle. Hence my complete opposite stance from you. Though I completely understand where you're coming from and I respect that.

Quote:
*shrug*. Your mileage may vary. But I'll be buying Air on Blu-ray in October, simply because I will be Blu-ray capable at some point in the near future, and as such, it makes sense for me to buy it in this format rather than pay the extra hundred thousand odd yen for the R2 DVDs.
I love AIR, and I'm perfectly willing and financially capable and ready to double dipping on BR AIR if it comes to it. It's just that BR as a movie format cannot convience me to do so right now and I'm voting with my wallet. As I said, not going to buy beta-like products.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 05:28   Link #67
andiyar
wingéd prettygirl
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to andiyar Send a message via MSN to andiyar
@ houkoholic

I completely understand where you're coming from. Thanks for a very cohesive and well articulated response, 'tis always a pleasure to read them. And as I hope you've gathered, I'm not exactly happy with Sony's treatment of the Blu-ray medium either. I see potential there, and I wish they'd follow through with it. In terms of data storage and such (which is the kicker for me at this point), sure, they've got something going. In terms of HD video?

Wait and see is the approach I too would nominally recommend. Depending on the personal situation, of course.

Interesting to note as well has been Sony's reactions (and lack thereof) to the HD 'revolution', especially in regards to MPEG2vs VC-1/AVC (oh, and for the record, it's not so much a generic Microsoft-DRM-Evil-Empire hate for me, it's more the way they pushed it... and the bad experiences I've had with WMV in general in the past). Yep, sure, MPEG-2 can look damn good. But the kicker is, of course, that AVC/VC-1 can look just as good, if not better... with a hell of a lot less bitrate/storage. This might not be an issue to a lot of consumers, sadly, as quality is often a neglected thing - look at the way people treat HDTV, for instance, with many consumers apparently unable to see much of a difference, if at all, between 720p & 1080; not to mention the online music stores of the iTMS et al distributing horribly compressed music that makes me cringe, yet most people are perfectly fine with...

I suppose, as with most things, the voting with your wallet as you are doing is the way to go. I'm still hoping for a Blu-ray/HD-DVD combo drive at some point that is also an upscaling DVD player. Otherwise? Well, go with what I need most.


-Andiyar
__________________
"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"
andiyar is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 07:25   Link #68
zalas
tsubasa o sagashite
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Send a message via ICQ to zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic
Dual layer 50GB BD-R are available, but dual layer BD movie disk are not. Sounds silly I know since you would expect pressing ROM disks will be easier than making writable disk, but that's actually how it is right now.
Um... what?
The AIR BD set comes on 50GB dual layer BluRay discs, you know.
__________________
~Yoda is waiting in the air~ | HAVEN | encubed: visual novel translation news site
zalas is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 07:27   Link #69
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
Um... what?
The AIR BD set comes on 50GB dual layer BluRay discs, you know.
Where's the source?

AIR BD doesn't come out until November 1st, until I see physical proof that they're dual layer BD, it doesn't exists *as of now*.

EDIT: After googling, the only place which I saw the mention of dual layer 50G is amazon jp. I do not see such mention of 50G disk on the AIR official site, Pony Canyon or any other news such as Impress Watch and online vender's site. Needless to say I'm very skeptical at this point
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 07:40   Link #70
zalas
tsubasa o sagashite
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Send a message via ICQ to zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic
Where's the source?

AIR BD doesn't come out until November 1st, until I see physical proof that they're dual layer BD, it doesn't exists *as of now*.
Source: Amazon site
Quote:
Originally Posted by amazon
2層の50GBという大容量は、コンパクトかつスタイリッシュなパッケージングを実現。
By the way, the text Amazon uses is from the manufacturer, so unless the manufacturer is purposefully trying to deceive you, I'd say they're dual layer discs. Of course it doesn't exist at the exact precise moment I'm writing this post, because it has yet to start shipping.

EDIT: The main AIR site does claim average 40Mbps for the main feature. Assuming each episode is 25 minutes, we get 14*25*60*40,000,000/8 = 105GB. The main features are contained on 3 discs, and hence, we get approximately 35 GB per disc, which would not fit on a single layer disc.
__________________
~Yoda is waiting in the air~ | HAVEN | encubed: visual novel translation news site
zalas is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 07:53   Link #71
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
Source: Amazon site

By the way, the text Amazon uses is from the manufacturer, so unless the manufacturer is purposefully trying to deceive you, I'd say they're dual layer discs. Of course it doesn't exist at the exact precise moment I'm writing this post, because it has yet to start shipping.
Or you know maybe Amazon made a mistake?

Like I said, I can't even find a mention of 50G disk on Pony Canyon's site itself, you can't find BD AIR in their November release line-up and heck punching in the disk code doesn't even bring up a product hit. Likewise all other reputable online venders does not mention this at all. I'm not convince that this one and only one source is proof that it is indeed 50G. Unless you're saying that Amazon is so special that they're the only one who have access to manufacturer text while nobody else has.

Eitherway It's even more disappointing if they have 50G to work with and still come up not much better than the DVD as I've seen and other Japanese people can attest to, just further proves the format is not mature enough to support.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 08:09   Link #72
zalas
tsubasa o sagashite
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Send a message via ICQ to zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic
Or you know maybe Amazon made a mistake?

Like I said, I can't even find a mention of 50G disk on Pony Canyon's site itself, you can't find BD AIR in their November release line-up and heck punching in the disk code doesn't even bring up a product hit. Likewise all other reputable online venders does not mention this at all. I'm not convince that this one and only one source is proof that it is indeed 50G. Unless you're saying that Amazon is so special that they're the only one who have access to manufacturer text while nobody else has.
So are you saying the main AIR website made a mistake? According to my calculations in my previous post, you can't fit 40Mbps average bitrate for 14 episodes onto 3 single-layer discs.

Quote:
Eitherway It's even more disappointing if they have 50G to work with and still come up not much better than the DVD as I've seen and other Japanese people can attest to, just further proves the format is not mature enough to support.
Not really, it just proves that we don't have sufficiently large amounts of high definition materials yet, not that the format isn't mature enough. You're confusing information and the storage medium. It's like saying that 500GB hard discs are not a mature format because hardly anyone has managed to fill them up properly. Unless, by format you mean high definition animation in general. I, for one, would be looking forward to seeing high definition disc releases of theatrical features, which would have the proper high resolution materials.
__________________
~Yoda is waiting in the air~ | HAVEN | encubed: visual novel translation news site
zalas is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 08:35   Link #73
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
So are you saying the main AIR website made a mistake? According to my calculations in my previous post, you can't fit 40Mbps average bitrate for 14 episodes onto 3 single-layer discs.
Actually it could very be as I just found this interesting piece on impress watch which exactly addressed the dual layer issue in a BD conference which took place today.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060829/bd1.htm

Matsushita's storage device specalist who is the technical spokesman respresenting the group specifically said that dual layer ROM disk should appear on the market at around Christmas, this goes in direct conflict with the AIR BD box release date of November 1st. More interesting is that Yokujin Densyokai, the group which sponsers and produces AIR AND Pony Canyon were part of the conference but does not correct such a statement.

So either:
1) BD AIR will be delayed till Christmas, if the Christmas release claim is true.
2) AIR official site's claim is false and just PR gimmick, if the Christmas release claim is the truth.
3) Matsushita's own spokesman was wrong and made a balant mistake.

Either way you take it, if you look at the overall picture with all these conflicting reports and claims, it certainty doesn't introuduce any consumer confidence.

*EDIT* Looks like 1 is the case. BD AIR is officially delayed for one month because of "technical issues"
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...60829/pony.htm

Quote:
Not really, it just proves that we don't have sufficiently large amounts of high definition materials yet, not that the format isn't mature enough. You're confusing information and the storage medium. Unless, by format you mean high definition animation in general.
No because I'm just talking about AIR and just AIR alone. AIR broadcasted on BS-i (which is an HD broadcast) was absolutely amazing and blows the DVD away anyday, and if what the BR camp is claiming is true, then BD AIR should look just as good if not better. Yet it is not the case and it just looks barely better than DVD as reported by many Japanese fans and confirmed by myself personally. So one has to question why this is so if free-to-air BS-i running on terrestrial airwaves working on less bandwidth can get it to look absolutely amazing but why a supposedly commerical source to be put on BD can't get it right. Something has to be wrong somewhere and right now it looks like it's the tools for BD, whether it is authoring tools or the players or the manufacturing process, are the ones to blame, and this is exactly the sign of an immature format.

Last edited by houkoholic; 2006-08-29 at 09:19.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-29, 23:04   Link #74
zalas
tsubasa o sagashite
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Send a message via ICQ to zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic
No because I'm just talking about AIR and just AIR alone. AIR broadcasted on BS-i (which is an HD broadcast) was absolutely amazing and blows the DVD away anyday, and if what the BR camp is claiming is true, then BD AIR should look just as good if not better. Yet it is not the case and it just looks barely better than DVD as reported by many Japanese fans and confirmed by myself personally. So one has to question why this is so if free-to-air BS-i running on terrestrial airwaves working on less bandwidth can get it to look absolutely amazing but why a supposedly commerical source to be put on BD can't get it right. Something has to be wrong somewhere and right now it looks like it's the tools for BD, whether it is authoring tools or the players or the manufacturing process, are the ones to blame, and this is exactly the sign of an immature format.
I have the DVDs. The "high definition" broadcast didn't appear to have any more details than a properly upscaled image from the DVD. Furthermore, any encode of the broadcast was suffering from color problems. And if I remember correctly, AIR BD was to be encoded using MPEG2, which is a very mature codec, and is the same codec used by high definition digital television. The only reason you'd have aliasing like that in the final image would be through upsampling of a lower resolution source (e.g. a standard definition source).
__________________
~Yoda is waiting in the air~ | HAVEN | encubed: visual novel translation news site
zalas is offline  
Old 2006-08-30, 03:09   Link #75
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
I have the DVDs. The "high definition" broadcast didn't appear to have any more details than a properly upscaled image from the DVD. Furthermore, any encode of the broadcast was suffering from color problems. And if I remember correctly, AIR BD was to be encoded using MPEG2, which is a very mature codec, and is the same codec used by high definition digital television. The only reason you'd have aliasing like that in the final image would be through upsampling of a lower resolution source (e.g. a standard definition source).
The AIR DVD was known to have compression issues to begin with. That was the reason people were excited about the BD release in the first place, in hope that it fixes these problems.

Also let me guess, did you by any chance obtained the HD source off the internet, which obviously had gone through another compression process which would degrade the picture quality? Because off the air BS-i AIR was really quite a fair bit nicer than the DVD if you watch it as it was, SD source up-converted or not, it was done well. This was the reason that the Japanese fans were disappointed about the BD AIR because most agreed that it looked barely better than the DVD.

Yes, BD AIR would be encoded in MPEG2, which is a mature codec, but what about the other parts of the equation I've mentioned which also factors into the overall maturity of the format - the players and the manufacturing process, both are being held up right now (as evident by the BR group having to hold a conference to instill consumer confidence that they're on target on delivering what they promised). No matter how you try to spin it, the fact of the matter is that BD has only been out for a few months as players only just began to hit the streets, plus the first of these players are riddled with hardware problems, it is an immature format and there is no arguments you can make against this fact.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-08-30, 14:33   Link #76
zalas
tsubasa o sagashite
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Send a message via ICQ to zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic
The AIR DVD was known to have compression issues to begin with. That was the reason people were excited about the BD release in the first place, in hope that it fixes these problems.
Yeah, poor Misuzu's forehead ;_;

Quote:
Also let me guess, did you by any chance obtained the HD source off the internet, which obviously had gone through another compression process which would degrade the picture quality? Because off the air BS-i AIR was really quite a fair bit nicer than the DVD if you watch it as it was, SD source up-converted or not, it was done well. This was the reason that the Japanese fans were disappointed about the BD AIR because most agreed that it looked barely better than the DVD.
Yes, I was watching that rip on the internet, so I can not say for sure exactly what the BS-i stream was like. See, now we are at an impasse. Unless someone can obtain the original MPEG2 stream on which AIR was broadcast and rip a frame out of it and compare it with a frame on the DVD on a high quality monitor, we wouldn't be able to tell which was better quantitatively.
Now, when you said that the BS-i version was a ton better than the DVD version, I had thought you meant that the BS-i version was from some mysterious HD source. Even a bad rip of that would've captured at least some (albeit noisy) detail from the HD that wasn't in the DVD release. However, if it was from a SD upconvert, the bad rip would then probably look poorer than the DVD, due to the fact that the bad rip of the upconvert would be travelling through 2 lossy channels (BS-i, ripper), while the DVD would be travelling through only 1 lossy channel (DVD encode). If the original source were HD, the DVD would've traveled through two lossy channels (downconvert, DVD encode). Furthermore, if the original source were only SD, then of course BS-i would have a much better time fitting the same material onto a bitstream more than twice as wide (assuming 20Mbit stream for BS-i).

Quote:
Yes, BD AIR would be encoded in MPEG2, which is a mature codec, but what about the other parts of the equation I've mentioned which also factors into the overall maturity of the format - the players and the manufacturing process, both are being held up right now (as evident by the BR group having to hold a conference to instill consumer confidence that they're on target on delivering what they promised). No matter how you try to spin it, the fact of the matter is that BD has only been out for a few months as players only just began to hit the streets, plus the first of these players are riddled with hardware problems, it is an immature format and there is no arguments you can make against this fact.
The whole discussion seemed to have been focused on picture quality/storage size from the way it was going, so I did not realize you are now thinking of other problems with BluRay. I agree that there are problems with BluRay in terms of actual logistics, but that's not what we were arguing here. As BD is a digital format, a physical manufacturing process and/or authoring process should have little to nothing to do with the quality of the video stream, as long as the video stream is correctly etched onto the disc, bit by bit. Thus, the only reason AIR BD would look terrible would be in the video encoding chain, and thus it's either 1) the source, 2) the upconverter or 3) the MPEG2 encoder. The only part that actually is part of the BluRay spec would be the MPEG2 encoder. The rest has nothing to do with BluRay itself, and would've been the same had it been HD-DVD.
__________________
~Yoda is waiting in the air~ | HAVEN | encubed: visual novel translation news site
zalas is offline  
Old 2006-08-30, 23:07   Link #77
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
Now, when you said that the BS-i version was a ton better than the DVD version, I had thought you meant that the BS-i version was from some mysterious HD source. Even a bad rip of that would've captured at least some (albeit noisy) detail from the HD that wasn't in the DVD release. However, if it was from a SD upconvert, the bad rip would then probably look poorer than the DVD, due to the fact that the bad rip of the upconvert would be travelling through 2 lossy channels (BS-i, ripper), while the DVD would be travelling through only 1 lossy channel (DVD encode). If the original source were HD, the DVD would've traveled through two lossy channels (downconvert, DVD encode). Furthermore, if the original source were only SD, then of course BS-i would have a much better time fitting the same material onto a bitstream more than twice as wide (assuming 20Mbit stream for BS-i).
I doubt there was actually a HD source, otherwise you would think that BD AIR would have used it instead of upconverting from a SD source, no?

You've pointed out why the BS-i broadcast looks better than DVD, and by the same argument, BD AIR should at the very least look just as good as the BS-i broadcast assuming that 1) they use the same source (which is very likely) and upconverted it correctly 2) BD has a higher bitrate and more bandwidth to work with. But the result is contrary according to reports, with BD AIR sitting somewhere inbetween the BS-i and DVD.

Quote:
The whole discussion seemed to have been focused on picture quality/storage size from the way it was going, so I did not realize you are now thinking of other problems with BluRay. I agree that there are problems with BluRay in terms of actual logistics, but that's not what we were arguing here. As BD is a digital format, a physical manufacturing process and/or authoring process should have little to nothing to do with the quality of the video stream, as long as the video stream is correctly etched onto the disc, bit by bit. Thus, the only reason AIR BD would look terrible would be in the video encoding chain, and thus it's either 1) the source, 2) the upconverter or 3) the MPEG2 encoder. The only part that actually is part of the BluRay spec would be the MPEG2 encoder. The rest has nothing to do with BluRay itself, and would've been the same had it been HD-DVD.
I guess I should elaborate on the complaints towards BD AIR. While the aliasing artifacts is and can be attributed to upscaling, there are also instances where pixelisation is occuring in various high motion scenes. The most obvious of this is when during the opening scene where Mizusu is spinning around, the the DVD version pixelation was very obviously occuring for the whole of Mizusu's character while the BS-i version don't have this issue, so this shouldn't be a converting issue but rather a bitrate issue. When I was looking at BD AIR I specifically paid attention to this scene and the stream they were showing had pixelisation in it (though yes, not as bad as the DVD), while it may be just due to that stream being poorly encoded, it's not exactly encouraging when you supposedly have 40M/bits to throw at the process (actually they even showed the bitrate bar and it clocks at 40M/bits) and still have such simple compression artifacts.

Also don't forget that there's also the *decoding* chain where image degration can occur. Not all signal processors are made equal.
houkoholic is offline  
Old 2006-09-02, 03:38   Link #78
zalas
tsubasa o sagashite
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Send a message via ICQ to zalas
Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic
You've pointed out why the BS-i broadcast looks better than DVD, and by the same argument, BD AIR should at the very least look just as good as the BS-i broadcast assuming that 1) they use the same source (which is very likely) and upconverted it correctly 2) BD has a higher bitrate and more bandwidth to work with. But the result is contrary according to reports, with BD AIR sitting somewhere inbetween the BS-i and DVD.
*sigh* I guess this is one more argument supporting the "Lots of Japanese media companies can't encode, especially Pony Canyon (who will be producing the new Kanon DVDs as well -_-)."

Quote:
I guess I should elaborate on the complaints towards BD AIR. While the aliasing artifacts is and can be attributed to upscaling, there are also instances where pixelisation is occuring in various high motion scenes. The most obvious of this is when during the opening scene where Mizusu is spinning around, the the DVD version pixelation was very obviously occuring for the whole of Mizusu's character while the BS-i version don't have this issue, so this shouldn't be a converting issue but rather a bitrate issue. When I was looking at BD AIR I specifically paid attention to this scene and the stream they were showing had pixelisation in it (though yes, not as bad as the DVD), while it may be just due to that stream being poorly encoded, it's not exactly encouraging when you supposedly have 40M/bits to throw at the process (actually they even showed the bitrate bar and it clocks at 40M/bits) and still have such simple compression artifacts.
Well, it's not really pixellation per se. But it is mosquito noise (ringing) and yes, it's resulting from bitrate starvation. I was indeed hoping the BD release would resolve this issue, but I'm guessing they screwed up the upconvert process and/or using the encoder *again* orz
My guess is that their upconvert created too much high frequency noise/errors, and thus totally killed the encoder. For example, those alias edges have *got* to be ugly to compress.

Quote:
Also don't forget that there's also the *decoding* chain where image degration can occur. Not all signal processors are made equal.
This is why I prefer to do comparisons before any post processing, so I can look at the raw, decoded stream. The decoded output before post processing should be pretty standard across all decoders, as the bitstream format and decoding process is well defined. This removes all the unnecessary doubt regarding the post processing, and shows you exactly what information is actually there and what got blown away.
__________________
~Yoda is waiting in the air~ | HAVEN | encubed: visual novel translation news site
zalas is offline  
Old 2006-09-09, 21:33   Link #79
Shakugan no Shana
Zoroastrian
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: United States
Age: 27
*Finished Pre-Ordering AIR Box 初回限定生産 (Blu-ray Disc)* Oh well... It is worth it. I know for sure I'll say it was a stupid move. But I'll love it for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andiyar
Okay. Well, Standard Definition and High Definition are referring to the quality of the masters that the disks are encoded from, and to the final quality of the video on the disks. The primary thing to consider here is pixel resolution - AIR is a show broadcast in an aspect ratio of 16:9. In standard definition, this means the picture is 720 pixels wide by 480 pixels high - this is considered standard for NTSC television and DVD. (For PAL the height is instead 576 pixels, and there's a lot of fun involving FPS etc. Let's not go there tonight ^_^). In high definition, as Blu-ray is meant to be and as you'd expect a Blu-ray version of AIR to be, the resolution is somewhat higher. The minimum resolution for high definition is 1280 pixels wide by 720 pixels high, with progressive scan - this is referred to as 720p HD video. HD also refers to 1080i and 1080p video - which are interlaced and progressive scan, respecively, and boast a resolution of 1920 pixels wide by 1080 pixels high.

Additionally, HD video allows a far higher bitrate than SD video - basically (though perhaps not perfectly accurate...) the more bitrate, the better, at least assuming we're using masters and codecs that will benefit from the increased bitrate.

I've 'pinched' a chart from Wikipedia that might help illustrate what I'm talking about with resolution at any rate:



Okay, so ignoring the blue stuff on the right (We shouldn't but for the sake of this we will) the original source for the AIR disks on Blu-ray will be the yellow bit on the chart, plus the little orange bit on the left - where it says 480p - in terms of screen resolution. A true HD master would be either the dark orange part (720p) or the red part (1080p). As you can see, the image size is enormously increased, and in terms of HD video, the greater the resolution, the better the quality.

What they've announced they are doing with the AIR masters is taking a 480i/p image and upscaling it to (assumedly) 720p, that is encoding the master to a higher resolution than it was originally intended to be seen in. And they've said this will look great etc etc, but... it's still a 480i/p master. Basically, they're cheating and not actually providing real high definition video for this AIR set. Which is very disappointing, considering that Blu-ray is intended as a high definition format.

As to the cancellation of preorders... you know, i wouldn't be incredibly surprised. Imagine, you're a Japanese fan who has bought the LE R2s, and has snapped up a Blu-ray player (or will be snapping up a PS3) for your high-def anime fix. AIR is coming out, so naturally you'll get another copy - hey, it's AIR, and it's HD! Oh wait... it's not really. It's in fact the same, but altered slightly so it might look, oh, 10% better. Give or take. And it's another 300,000 yen, after you've already dropped 7000 yen per volume for seven volumes.

I can see my reaction right there. And I'm wondering now too - the bitrate is reported to be averaging around 40mbps, which is very nice, should eliminate those issues Pony Canyon had with compression artifacts in the original releases, which I've heard were a bit poorly mastered - insufficient bitrate, perhaps. So that's fine... but the lack of a proper HD master, meaning upscaling causing possible problems in itself?

I may need to rethink this. If I'm paying for a PS3 or Blu-ray player, I'm looking for fantastic video. Not for 'hey, somewhat better than DVD!' video.


-Andiyar
Yeah, I know. Even though, if you haven't realized, "Not All HDTV's are at full 1080p". Most are Fake to be honest, as in HDTV that appears with Specs "1080p". You can test them out yourselves in a BestBuy store or anything TechStore, you'll see the big difference between fake 1080p and real 1080p. There are a very few numbers that supports the best High Definition Quality, an example is this Top HDTV 46" BRAVIA™ XBR® LCD Flat Panel HDTVKDL-46XBR2(Which is the HDTV I have). But without a doubt, I still want this Air Set, since it is like.... my most favorite anime of all you can say. <3

Last edited by Shakugan no Shana; 2006-09-09 at 21:51.
Shakugan no Shana is offline  
Old 2006-09-18, 09:27   Link #80
PILMAN
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Maybe it's just me and I don't want to talk about technology I don't know a lot about as to be honest I don't know all the technical specs regarding bluray and hd dvd. I think both have a LOT of hype right now and i'm really waiting to see which technology takes off. Currently the war is sounding a lot like Betamax vs VHS. Yeah Betamax was superior in a few ways but it wasn't really cost effective. Also I remember during the VHS war we had a really nice Pioneer Elite Laserdisc player. I remember the quality of the video was very very clear but the discs were huge and not very cheap. I don't know what happened to the technology but it never became a standard at least in the US.

What i'm wondering is how either HD players could benefit myself, I really don't think it will if my primary viewing is Anime. I've seen the screenshots and realize it can't really represent how media would look on a regular hdtv. I myself am running I believe a 2nd generation Plasma display, it's a EDTV display 42" by Samsung with DVI therefore it's not truely HD. While I get HDTV channels from Dish and they are very colorful and vibrant (and my satellite box is set to 1080i) I believe this is actually scaled down to 480p so my tv is able to fit the resolution on the screen. It looks better than dvd quality in ways but even then it's a significant improvement. I've seen new generation plasma displays with HDTV content playing on them and it blows me away how clear it is even close up to the screen, with mine you walk up to it and you can see the pixels but from a good viewing distance it still looks as clear as any modern day plasma display.

Now with anime, i've noticed anime will really look good even on a regular CRT as it seems like there is little worry about skintone and realism as a real human compared to a drawing. I've watched anime in 16:9 through dvd upscaled and it looks very clear and vibrant, i'm sure anime will look better on hd dvd and bluray but the question is will it really be a noticeable difference? I'm sure the new anime coming out and stuff like Air would look better. I'm wondering if either player is even worth an investment with my current tv or if i'm just better off buying a new tv with a player within 2007.

One large marketing gimmick it seems especially at walmart are "HDTV ready tv's" which aren't truely HD, rather they downscale the signal. I bought my tv in early 2003 however so at the time I didn't really know about that though I bought mine at circuit city.
PILMAN is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.