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Old 2006-08-31, 01:01   Link #21
Dark Steno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiseiseki
The yesu believers are infidils that must be converted to the Desu cult ~desu. There is only one Desu and her name is Suiseiseki ~desu.

Now I wonder if desu will be kept when the anime is licensed in the US.
I think, no.
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Old 2006-08-31, 01:09   Link #22
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan
Translating a word in a translation is not localization and is not arrogant. It's doing your job as a translator.

If anything, using words from multiple languages for 'flavor' when the characters use one language is what annoys me. I couldn't stand the constant use of Engrish in Black Lagoon when the characters speech in Japanese was already supposed to actually be English... same with people who write fanfiction always putting random Japanese phrases in the character's mouths even though they write their dialogue primarily in English.

Gah.

Oh no all them Del Ray translators are going to be out of a job!

Actually your stance intrigues me....

Out of context do you get annoyed when you go to restaurants and see dishes named "chow mein", "korma" and "sushi"

imho language of an anime/manga is suppose to convey over a story that the author wants to share with us (and make a buck too ), a characters little quirks are part of the story and if a translator takes that away then they are doing more then translating as they are changing a character and therefore changing the story.

Japanese have lots of quirks in their language which can't be translated via language or local understanding (girl nick names suffixes for example).

For someone to believe that desu is unacceptable to the western market to me says that they believe that market is closed minded and stupid which it most defiently not. It would be even worse now if they decided to keep in unyuuu and nano, because even through they have kept my favorite character "in character", they would have just rubber stamped Sui as a "yesu" to a lot of the western readers.

Just going back to the food example I could imagine going to an Indian restaurant and asking for a curry... The chicken one with which is kinda spicy and coconuty.... but wait curry that word isn't English, nor is beef or pork etc etc as they are adopted words form other countries, but they are in the dictionary... nooo my head hurts...

The usage of yes on the end of a statement when I read it is like underlining and bolding, or just plain stupid. ie "The lack of desu is stupid yes?", [STUPID]"I am eating pizza yes"[/STUPID], desuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu is a quirky usage of desu

Last edited by grey_moon; 2006-08-31 at 01:39.
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Old 2006-08-31, 01:24   Link #23
rooboy
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I'm not sure precisely what you're referring to - they haven't kept any of the idiosyncratic speech in Negima or Tsubasa Chronicles. I can't really speak for Nodame Cantabille, Pastel, Gacha Gacha, xxxHOLiC, Othello or Genshiken because I've never read any of them in Japanese (though I am reading them in English). I've looked all through my copy of Air Gear and the most I can find is they stuck a note in the end about why they translated one instance as "this way". But they did translate it.
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Old 2006-08-31, 02:44   Link #24
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiseiseki
Now I wonder if desu will be kept when the anime is licensed in the US.
~ yesu!
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There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.
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Old 2006-08-31, 03:02   Link #25
Mincemaker
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Well, if they really had to translate ~desu, I am glad they translated it to 'yes'. After all, ~desu does sound and does mean 'yes' or 'is it' after all. Though I'm am annoyed that they don't keep the ~desu, but still.....'yes' is still better than anything they could come up with.

'Yes' is still ok. '~yesu' can just go to hell.
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Old 2006-08-31, 03:18   Link #26
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mincemaker
Well, if they really had to translate ~desu, I am glad they translated it to 'yes'. After all, ~desu does sound and does mean 'yes' or 'is it' after all. Though I'm am annoyed that they don't keep the ~desu, but still.....'yes' is still better than anything they could come up with.

'Yes' is still ok. '~yesu' can just go to hell.
"です DESU is the state-of-being verb in Japanese. It means "is" or "are". です DESU is the dictionary form of the state-of-being verb, meaning it is only appropriate in present tense, positive, and polite context. A seperate form is required to say "is not" or "was" or to more casually express "is"."

Therefore a true translation would have to put is(u) or are(u) in the middle to a sentence.....

This issue is(u) that everyone uses desu, but Sui uses desuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu which is(u) her thing and when people use yesu they are playing on the fact that when you hear desu it sounds like des (no u), so Sui would say it like yesu with a u.....

Last edited by grey_moon; 2006-08-31 at 03:56.
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Old 2006-08-31, 04:00   Link #27
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon
Oh no all them Del Ray translators are going to be out of a job!

Actually your stance intrigues me....

Out of context do you get annoyed when you go to restaurants and see dishes named "chow mein", "korma" and "sushi"

Just going back to the food example I could imagine going to an Indian restaurant and asking for a curry... The chicken one with which is kinda spicy and coconuty.... but wait curry that word isn't English, nor is beef or pork etc etc as they are adopted words form other countries, but they are in the dictionary... nooo my head hurts...
Yes, we absorb names for things that are not named in our language, because we need a way to refer to the named objects once they enter our cultural awareness (foods are common because they are likely to be exclusive to a culture). But as numerous people have pointed out in this thread, desu is a part-of-speech that doesn't even have a real meaning besides adding declarative emphasis, so including it in an English sentence is ridiculous. I think you're wrong about this te yo.

Quote:
imho language of an anime/manga is suppose to convey over a story that the author wants to share with us (and make a buck too ), a characters little quirks are part of the story and if a translator takes that away then they are doing more then translating as they are changing a character and therefore changing the story.

Japanese have lots of quirks in their language which can't be translated via language or local understanding (girl nick names suffixes for example).
Suiseiseki has the (relatively minor) quirk of having idiosyncratic speech, so they gave her idiosyncratic speech in the translation. They didn't change anything, they translated it. And Suiseiseki emphasizing her 'desu's is not 'part of the story.'

That's why honorifics are often left in manga: it's a clear-cut expression of factors (familiarity and politeness) that in the equivalent English would just be expressed in tone. They're often important to understanding dialogue that would have to be changed considerably (to incorporate obvious levels of politeness and familiarity) to have the same impact in English, so they're left alone.

However, if you take away 'desu' every thing Suiseiseki says still has the exact same meaning.

Quote:
For someone to believe that desu is unacceptable to the western market to me says that they believe that market is closed minded and stupid which it most defiently not. It would be even worse now if they decided to keep in unyuuu and nano, because even through they have kept my favorite character "in character", they would have just rubber stamped Sui as a "yesu" to a lot of the western readers.
I believe that the market for manga translated from Japanese to English probably doesn't read Japanese with great speed or comprehension and would like to read their manga in English. And yes, I think they want the characters to be every bit as enjoyable in translation, but I don't think that Suiseiseki is diminished by the translation of a verbal quirk that doesn't have a meaning in the first place.

Quote:
The usage of yes on the end of a statement when I read it is like underlining and bolding, or just plain stupid. ie "The lack of desu is stupid yes?", [STUPID]"I am eating pizza yes"[/STUPID], desuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu is a quirky usage of desu
Well, since emphasizing 'desu' is just affirming what went before, 'yes' makes a little sense, but I agree that it doesn't sound that great. Adding the appropriate form of 'it is' would fit more types of statements, but...

Screw it, I spent all this time typing this, and now in the process of reasoning out the last sentence I come to agree with you. Even if it has no real meaning, it's the same as the honorifics, it allows you to explicitly emphasize something when in English you just depend on tone. Long live '~desu'.

*Sigh.*
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Old 2006-08-31, 09:10   Link #28
Lost
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Wait.. what am I saying. yesu wont be a 4chan meme. It will be an Animesuki meme!! I demand the creation of a yesu~ banner!



J/k.

------

In anycase, thinking over on it just now, maybe I'm over reacting. For lovers of RM, nothing will really take desu~ away. Desu has characterised and made Suiseiseki for us, and nothing can change that or take it away or replace it fully in our hearts (insert 21-gun salute). Interestingly, however, I pictured Suiseiseki saying 'yes' in the tone and way she says 'desu' (no it wasnt yesu~). Kikaifan said something about tone; and yes the same tone can be used for different words.

Like I said earlier, my only fear is for those for whom the translation is the first contact with Rozen Maiden.
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Old 2006-09-01, 06:56   Link #29
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
I want one too!! Does she come with batteries included? Or will I have to wind her up?
I'll kiss her ring.... wait that sounds bad doesn't it....

Bit of a rewind back to the TP and yesu fiasco... I don't want RM to do badly so I have decided to buy the butchered version and then write to them politely explaining to them my feelings in regards to changing desu to yes.... Maybe if we all do this we would be supporting RM, but also let them know of the immense distress it has caused
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Old 2006-09-01, 08:33   Link #30
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon
Bit of a rewind back to the TP and yesu fiasco... I don't want RM to do badly so I have decided to buy the butchered version and then write to them politely explaining to them my feelings in regards to changing desu to yes.... Maybe if we all do this we would be supporting RM, but also let them know of the immense distress it has caused
Are you serious about writing to them? Coz I wouldn't mind joining in with you.
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Old 2006-09-01, 09:33   Link #31
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
Are you serious about writing to them? Coz I wouldn't mind joining in with you.
Very serious, but I will ensure that I have purchased a copy from them first and I will do my best to be constructive and polite.
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Old 2006-09-01, 09:43   Link #32
Blablabla
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lol
You wil ask them to take off the "yes" or to put back the "desu" ?

In the french manga there's no problem they didn't add anything to Sui's words, Ayu did in their fansubs...
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Old 2006-09-01, 10:08   Link #33
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blablabla
lol
You wil ask them to take off the "yes" or to put back the "desu" ?

In the french manga there's no problem they didn't add anything to Sui's words, Ayu did in their fansubs...
Hmmm... Actually I realise that they won't change the print on the request of one, or even many fans, but I hope that it will influence any decisions they make in the future... I think I just found the basis of my letter...
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Old 2006-09-01, 10:37   Link #34
Lost
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Lol SET! Wait till I get my copy too tho.
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Old 2006-10-07, 02:25   Link #35
Lost
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Volume 1 release 05/2006 Volume 2 release 09/2006
Click for larger images. And sorry, I only have the EL translated covers.

Created by Peach-Pit
Published by Gentosha Comics, Inc.
Serialized in Comic Birz
Translated by TOKYOPOP to English

There are currently only 2 volumes out in English; while the manga in its native language has 7 volumes out.
Release Dates for the Volumes (source):

Vol. 1 - 24 March 2003
Vol. 2 - 24 December 2003
Vol. 3 - 24 September 2004
Vol. 4 - 24 December 2004
Vol. 5 - 24 August 2005
Vol. 6 - 24 January 2006
Vol. 7 - 24 September 2006
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I wonder if its possible to move the posts relating to the Manga into this thread? I remember some good discussion on TP's translation querks. (lemme just find the posts)

Last edited by Lost; 2006-10-07 at 10:21.
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Old 2006-10-07, 05:54   Link #36
Kineas
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Are there Mandarin translations available for the manga?
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Old 2006-10-07, 09:50   Link #37
Lost
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Yes, there are Mandarin translations available! Riker should know more about how many and where to get them. There are also German, French, Thai and Italian translations. XD

I stumbled upon this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSam View Post
Rozen Maiden is serialized in the seinen(young men's) manga magazine Comic Birz.

Rozen Maiden is a seinen manga/anime; a manga/anime aimed at young men.
For now there are 6 volumes released of this manga.
Here are the covers:



Genre: Seinen, Action, Comedy, Drama

Last edited by Lost; 2006-10-07 at 10:21.
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Old 2006-10-08, 02:06   Link #38
Jekyll
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Oh, wow, finally Rozen Maiden has its own forum!

Anyway, there's an old thread for the Rozen Maiden manga. Maybe it should be merged into this one.
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Last edited by Jekyll; 2006-10-08 at 02:30.
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Old 2006-10-08, 03:40   Link #39
Choki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kineas View Post
Are there Mandarin translations available for the manga?
yup theres mandarin translation~from volume 1-6 ^^
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Old 2006-10-08, 06:23   Link #40
BonBon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Therefore a true translation would have to put is(u) or are(u) in the middle to a sentence.....
When this whole 'Desu~ must live!' thing was blowing up, I suggested that perhaps they should 'translate' desu~ by having 'That's how it is-u~' on the end of sentences. The suggestion didn't go down very well!
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