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Old 2004-01-13, 05:26   Link #1
AG3
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Habitual flaming

I've noticed that flaming has become an increasing problem on the AnimeSuki forums. It really bugs me how many good threads are locked due to flamewars started by habitual flamers, people who seem simply unable to carry on a civilized discussion with anyone who doesn't agree 100% with them. And it bugs me even more that these habitual flamers aren't dealth with. Several of them blatantly disregard the rules concerning flaming/insulting/harassment because they KNOW they are unlikely to be banned, especially if they have been members for a while. I don't want to criticize the job the moderators do here, but I think locking the thread while letting the flamers continue to roam is a little bit too simple.

My personal opinion is that temporary banning of habitual rulebreakers should be used, and maybe delete some of the offending posts, even if it might make some threads look a bit strange. Locking the threads while letting them continue to sour the enviroment is going to make things progressivly worse as the number of members on the forums increase. Unless there is a firm stand against this kind of thing, AnimeSuki will eventually be abandoned by any decent person out there since it will only be a run-down forum of whiners and flamers like much of the rest on the web.

This is a pretty bleak picture I'm painting here, but all the old-timers must surely have noticed the trend. There's no reason to think it will get better all by itself. The moderators might not want to come across as tyrants who ban people who don't fully agree with them, but I think that you are a bit too lenient at times. Just because a person has been a member for some time doesn't mean that he should be excempt from the rules. Quite the contrary, IMO, members who've been around a while have an increased responsibility to behave according to rules and common decency, to set examples, and as such they should be treated more firmly when they willingly break rules than the newbies do.


I'm not looking to make enemies here, or to point fingers and make holier-than-thou speeches at people. Nor am I trying to blame the mods for the current state of the forums (believe me, I don't envy you your un-paid, low perk job) But I think AnimeSuki is seeing a negative trend which should be reversed before it gets even worse, before it chases away almost every decent person on the web and invites all the undesirables to take over.

Maybe I'm just getting old....

Anyway: Please deal with repeating flamers (and repeating trolls, they're not any better) before you lock valid and interesting threads.
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Old 2004-01-13, 05:45   Link #2
ato
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Hmmm, I tend to agree with AG3 in this matter. Flamebaiting has become pretty much expected behaviour from several persons who are quite frequent posters on the board. And as much as one would think that sensible persons would ignore them, that just isn't the case.

Maybe a policy change (the rules are already there, it would seem) to impose a time limited bad for blatantly inflammatory posts, combined with a mandatory deletion of the post itself would do the trick?

In any case, I do think that the mods here do a fantastic job of keeping the forum clean of crud. This is, by far, the best kept forum I have ever frequented, and my continuing presence is a testament to that fact, hehe. A little stricter enforcement of the "no flaming (or flamebaiting)" rule is really all that is needed
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Old 2004-01-13, 09:28   Link #3
Cammie
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I'm so glad you brought this topic up... I just started posting again and have noticed quite a lot flamewars starting. I enjoy reading a good debate when done tackfully without insulting one anothers views. There has been some excellent topics made and then closed because a flamewar starts.

I believe there needs to be some sort of limit to this "flamebaiting".
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Old 2004-01-13, 10:20   Link #4
dragonz20
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I agree... something has to be done and quickly. One thing the mods can do is instead of locking up the thread, they can simply edit out the flaming post and then PM the poster with a warning of a temporary ban if he violates it again in that specific thread. If this poster is flaming in multiple threads, then the mods can take extreme measures (temporary or permanent ban).

Do we have enough mods anyway? maybe it's because we don't have enough mods.
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Old 2004-01-13, 10:32   Link #5
Megane
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What exactly is everyone asking for here? For the moderators to broaden their definition of what a flame is? I don't think that we're in any danger of stepping onto a "slippery slope" where the filtration of flamebait becomes censorship which results in tyranny, but some of you are asking for what is perhaps a redefinition of the already fuzzy critera for flaming.

When does a series of posts become meaningful conversation?
When does a conversation become a discussion?
When does a discussion become an argument?
When does an argument become heated?
When does it all get out of control?
When should action be taken?
Should a user be banned? For how long?
Should their posts be removed?

That's a lot of questions, and perhaps I haven't been frequenting the forums enough, but I've not really noticed such a huge increase in the amount of flaming to warrant asking all of these.

[EDIT]I just re-read my post and I thought that I would just add that I'm all for the continued security of this community, but that I get a little ruffled whenever there is talk of post-deletion. I don't want anything taken too far and posts/threads getting deleted because someone stepped over the line briefly. I'm more in favour of "cooling-off" periods of a few days to a week myself. Or are we talking about real problem causers, those whose only intent is to insult, and to ruin a thread once things have not gone their way?
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Last edited by Megane; 2004-01-13 at 10:42. Reason: added EDIT
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Old 2004-01-13, 10:40   Link #6
Cammie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
What exactly is everyone asking for here? For the moderators to broaden their definition of what a flame is? I don't think that we're in any danger of stepping onto a "slippery slope" where the filtration of flamebait becomes censorship which results in tyranny, but some of you are asking for what is perhaps a redefinition of the already fuzzy critera for flaming.

When does a series of posts become meaningful conversation?
When does a conversation become a discussion?
When does a discussion become an argument?
When does an argument become heated?
When does it all get out of control?
When should action be taken?
Should a user be banned? For how long?
Should their posts be removed?

That's a lot of questions, and perhaps I haven't been frequenting the forums enough, but I've not really noticed such a huge increase in the amount of flaming to warrant asking all of these.
Megane not to be disrespectful here but its common sense?
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Old 2004-01-13, 10:45   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammie
Megane not to be disrespectful here but its common sense?
Thankyou for your polite comment, but if it was so obviously common sense, then by your arguing that something needs to be done, are you saying that the moderators lack this common sense?
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Old 2004-01-13, 11:10   Link #8
Flash_Squirrel
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A stand-alone post.

It's scary, I was talking about this same thing with NoSanninWa this morning, and I see that someone else noticed this flamewar "problem".

My idea is, if my opinion counts at all, that while we don't have big flamewars, the quick act against the little ones makes this forum so peaceful.

My point of view on this problem is that while it's a good thing to give some days of rest to the more abitual flamers (read: 1 or max 2 days of ban to cool down a little.) it's also good to close the hread for a few days.

The main point here is to show that, while flaming is a bad thing, it's not something only moderators have to fight with. If you are discussing on a thread and suddendly someone start some name-calling, you (you user) should be the first one to throw some water to the fire. Try to lighten a little the discussion, to avoid "hot" topics (there are gajillion of examples of "hot topic") or try to "scold" a little the flamers. Then the moderators will take action if the war keeps up.

The moderators are not enough ( 6/8 active moderator against 7.600 members is a little too much ) when you turn your head the other way instead of trying to lighten the mood yourself.
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Old 2004-01-13, 11:21   Link #9
dragonz20
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apparently it not just us but the mods who have noticed this problem. no one said this problem would be easily solved or there aren't any issues to deal with. and just because the mods haven't brought this up to the forum doesn't mean they aren't aware of it. they were probably discussing it among themselves as Flash_Squirrel pointed it out and deciding on an appropriate course of action.

and btw, i guess I was right about animesuki needing more mods. It's tough to find the right person to be a mod so I do appreciate all the work all of you have been doing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
Thankyou for your polite comment, but if it was so obviously common sense, then by your arguing that something needs to be done, are you saying that the moderators lack this common sense?
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Old 2004-01-13, 11:32   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash_Squirrel
...
The moderators are not enough ( 6/8 active moderator against 7.600 members is a little too much ) when you turn your head the other way instead of trying to lighten the mood yourself.
Sorry, but I can't help but point out that that's either a manipulation or a misinterpretation of the figures we are dealing with. It has already been pointed out in the Deleting Users thread that the number of active users hovers around 500. It's with this value that we have to consider whether or not we need more moderators.
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Old 2004-01-13, 11:36   Link #11
Cammie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
Thankyou for your polite comment, but if it was so obviously common sense, then by your arguing that something needs to be done, are you saying that the moderators lack this common sense?
Megane? just by reading other members post you call tell? did you read what Flash_Squirrel said? I have no idea what you are trying to start with me? But if you like a full explaination please pm me and I can break it down step by step.
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Old 2004-01-13, 11:39   Link #12
dragonz20
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Aren't you being a little nitpicky?.. It hovers around 500 @ one time but some come and go and some stay and read. some post and leave... regardless of whether or not all 7600 are actively posting, that's still a lot of of people to watch. 7-8 mods is not even close to enuff because this forum is active almost 24/7.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
Sorry, but I can't help but point out that that's either a manipulation or a misinterpretation of the figures we are dealing with. It has already been pointed out in the Deleting Users thread that the number of active users hovers around 500. It's with this value that we have to consider whether or not we need more moderators.
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Old 2004-01-13, 11:45   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
7-8 mods is not even close to enuff because this forum is active almost 24/7.

Since this board generates a lot of activity it's up to us, this board's community, to report specific problems.
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Last edited by TheAvsFan; 2004-01-13 at 12:24.
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Old 2004-01-13, 12:04   Link #14
Megane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
Aren't you being a little nitpicky?.. It hovers around 500 @ one time but some come and go and some stay and read. some post and leave... regardless of whether or not all 7600 are actively posting, that's still a lot of of people to watch. 7-8 mods is not even close to enuff because this forum is active almost 24/7.
Yes, I am. I just like to see numbers abused as little as possible. They have feelings too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammie
Megane? just by reading other members post you call tell? did you read what Flash_Squirrel said? I have no idea what you are trying to start with me? But if you like a full explaination please pm me and I can break it down step by step.
Sorry Cammie but it appears you have misunderstood what I said. I'll try and put it a little simpler:

You suggested that there is too much flaming, and that the mods are not dealing with it properly.
I am saying that the mods have not changed the way they act recently.
If you are suggesting that the mods change the way they act towards flaming, or change what they classify as a flame, then they must consider the questions I stated above.
If it is very obvious (common sense) as to how to deal with flaming, and if you think that the mods are not dealing with flaming properly, then it might be concluded that your statement says that the mods lack common sense.

I'm sure however that this isn't what you mean, but I think that you might be underestimating how hard it is to judge where a thread will go, and that it might not be so easy to say if a post is flame or not, if it borders on heated discussion.
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Old 2004-01-13, 12:45   Link #15
Cammie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
Yes, I am. I just like to see numbers abused as little as possible. They have feelings too!



Sorry Cammie but it appears you have misunderstood what I said. I'll try and put it a little simpler:

You suggested that there is too much flaming, and that the mods are not dealing with it properly.
I am saying that the mods have not changed the way they act recently.
If you are suggesting that the mods change the way they act towards flaming, or change what they classify as a flame, then they must consider the questions I stated above.
If it is very obvious (common sense) as to how to deal with flaming, and if you think that the mods are not dealing with flaming properly, then it might be concluded that your statement says that the mods lack common sense.

I'm sure however that this isn't what you mean, but I think that you might be underestimating how hard it is to judge where a thread will go, and that it might not be so easy to say if a post is flame or not, if it borders on heated discussion.
When did I say that the Mods weren't doing their jobs? I see where you are going with this. But you need to understand, that I'm not saying that any of the Moderators are slacking or not doing their job. All I was saying is that there has been lots of flamewars lately being started. (please read Flash_Squirrel comment again) You need to relax and not read to much into what I am writing and assume? and the comment was not towards you but to what I've noticed since I started posting again on AS. Again, this is one of best forums I've been on! I'm very partiality to AnimeSuki for my own reasons.
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Old 2004-01-13, 13:11   Link #16
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yes.. i've come to realize that maybe we have to be a bit more active too in reporting these problems. this can impact this forum negatively too though. what if everyone starts pm the mods everytime they encounter something they believe to be a problem..? they'll be flooded w/ requests that may be just deadends. well i do love this forum and i am just trying to ensure that it stays as one of the best.

and megane,

we have been very clear about this. people will jump into threads for no other reason than just to flame without adding useful comments. we are just saying that there is a problem and that even the mods have acknowledged it and we are just inquiring or letting the mods know. This section is after all: The forum and site feedback. in no way did anyone of us state that the mods are doing a bad job. don't start implying anything. we just care a lot about this forum...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAvsFan
Since this board generates a lot of activity it's up to us, this board's community, to report specific problems.
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Old 2004-01-13, 13:18   Link #17
Hunter
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It's true and sadly obvious that the flaming has increased very badly lately and I notice that it's usually always by the same people.

And to banish one or two days even if I think that it must be done but isn't sufficient, that 'heals' only the symptoms.

When it's the whole threads that should be closed, it must be done quickly.
Same for a post which need to be erased or edited because if not the whole thread is dead.

And for that there isn't much solution, people must report the problems to the mods.
Because they can't find all the flame in all the thread all the time even with more people.

Also Flash_Squirrel is right, trying to "scold" a little the flamers can be a good thing exept that many people who try to scold/cool up/whatever end up taking part in the flame wars, whitout speaking ot the hey-you're-not-a-modo-shadup! reaction.
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Old 2004-01-13, 16:17   Link #18
NoSanninWa
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First of all I'd like to thank everyone here for making their opinions known. I don't think that we mods are likely to post much in here because we are having our own discussion in private. I am telling you this because I want you to know that we are paying a great deal of attention to what you are saying, so please continue. As Flash_Squirrel has said, we care about this problem and are trying to decide how serious it is and what to do about it. Your words here may influence our decisions.

As for forum members helping to cool down flaming, please remember never to attack the flamers. Merely request that they cool things off, or else try bringing the conversation back to the topic. Never confront a flamer or you will be dragged into the argument. Keep this in mind and you too can help fight forum fires. Thank you very much if you want to try.

Just one final note. People have expressed doubt about the usefulness of a temporary ban in cooling down flames. My usual reaction to flamers is a two day ban and a polite PM explaining why. I usually get one of two responses to this. Either the flamer appologizes and tries to do better or else he says "FU, I'm quitting your stupid forum for good, you biased nazi." (actually it can get nastier than this) Either way the problem is solved, although the second response does hurt my feelings. Of course this doesn't solve all problems, but that is what permanent bans are for.
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Old 2004-01-13, 16:35   Link #19
Cammie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
First of all I'd like to thank everyone here for making their opinions known. I don't think that we mods are likely to post much in here because we are having our own discussion in private. I am telling you this because I want you to know that we are paying a great deal of attention to what you are saying, so please continue. As Flash_Squirrel has said, we care about this problem and are trying to decide how serious it is and what to do about it. Your words here may influence our decisions.

As for forum members helping to cool down flaming, please remember never to attack the flamers. Merely request that they cool things off, or else try bringing the conversation back to the topic. Never confront a flamer or you will be dragged into the argument. Keep this in mind and you too can help fight forum fires. Thank you very much if you want to try.

Just one final note. People have expressed doubt about the usefulness of a temporary ban in cooling down flames. My usual reaction to flamers is a two day ban and a polite PM explaining why. I usually get one of two responses to this. Either the flamer appologizes and tries to do better or else he says "FU, I'm quitting your stupid forum for good, you biased nazi." (actually it can get nastier than this) Either way the problem is solved, although the second response does hurt my feelings. Of course this doesn't solve all problems, but that is what permanent bans are for.
awww.... that was really nicely put.

maybe we should use my 3 warning rule that I use with my students?

1. 5 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod
2. 10 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod plus 1 day ban
3. no recess or freetime on AS: pm from a Mod plus 3-5 ban

lol... this is only a joke!!
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Old 2004-01-13, 17:41   Link #20
AG3
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I think it's a very fine line for a Mod to walk, between "oppressing" the forum users and merely maintaining order.

All the forum users, not only the mods, have a responsibility to help make this an enjoyable place to hang out. Flaming is only as big a problem as we let it be, really. When someone flames, the best thing to do is just ignore the whole thread (or just the person flaming). If no one is willing to aknowledge the existence of the offending post(s), the flamer will hopefully have the presence of mind to realize he/she is wasting energy. Trying to cool things down might have worked if the habitual flamers were capable of rational thought, which they usually don't seem to be.

I'll admit that ignoring flamers is easier said than done. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've been tempted to tell moronic posters a thing or two. But as I'd only make things worse (see "lack of rational thought in flamers" above), it'd be a wasted effort, and a counter-productive one. Talking sense into habitual flamers isn't easy. The problem isn't what you are saying to them, the problem is that they aren't listening. They don't want to.

As the saying goes, action speaks louder than words.
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