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Old 2006-09-13, 16:49   Link #1
arias
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FFXII sequel announced

Well suprise suprise. Squeenix has begun ruthlessly milking its series. The commercial drive has begun, and I fear it will never get back.

http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q3-2006/091306a.html

Not that I wouldn't buy it if it weren't a good game. But.. sigh.

Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2006-09-13 at 17:31.
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Old 2006-09-13, 16:57   Link #2
wsheit
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Not sure who's right here, but IGN has reported that the "sequel" you mention is actually a prequel for the DS:

http://ds.ign.com/articles/732/732509p1.html
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Old 2006-09-13, 19:50   Link #3
arias
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I'm suprised my topic was edited.... oh well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wsheit
Not sure who's right here, but IGN has reported that the "sequel" you mention is actually a prequel for the DS:

http://ds.ign.com/articles/732/732509p1.html
My guess is that my side is right. Although developing an FFXII spinoff for the DS would be clever considering its consumer base, the important thing is, they spent FIVE years shaping FFXII. I won't be suprised if the budget is rather huge (Wikipedia cites it as having the same budget as FFX, which is possible due to less CG cut-scenes). The best way to exploit this is to make an FFXII sequel on the PS2..

Models, worlds, textures and all can be easily reused without additional cost, and all they need is design new content. Even their hard-worked on battle system can be kept perfectly in place. Easy money.

In contrast, working on a DS title would mean creating up from scratch.
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Old 2006-09-13, 20:02   Link #4
wsheit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
I'm suprised my topic was edited.... oh well.




My guess is that my side is right. Although developing an FFXII spinoff for the DS would be clever considering its consumer base, the important thing is, they spent FIVE years shaping FFXII. I won't be suprised if the budget is rather huge (Wikipedia cites it as having the same budget as FFX, which is possible due to less CG cut-scenes). The best way to exploit this is to make an FFXII sequel on the PS2..

Models, worlds, textures and all can be easily reused without additional cost, and all they need is design new content. Even their hard-worked on battle system can be kept perfectly in place. Easy money.

In contrast, working on a DS title would mean creating up from scratch.
I went to RPGamer's actual profile for Revenant Wings and they also mentioned it being for DS- so the only thing at dispute now is whether it's a prequel or a sequel.
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Old 2006-09-13, 22:09   Link #5
arias
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I guess we'll wait for the dust to clear before saying anything definitive..

except that Squeenix are milking it. Putting on their farmer's gloves. Pulling a Nintendo. Squeezing blood from stone.
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Old 2006-09-14, 00:23   Link #6
IchiKyo
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What they have done to FFXII... It's made for Kids? O_o
A little making on SD and they will be for the Future Kingdom Hearts 3...

Seriously this is a Big Spoil Inside
Now we learn that Vann and Penelo are really Survive on FFXII :/
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Old 2006-09-14, 11:10   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IchiKyo
What they have done to FFXII... It's made for Kids? O_o
A little making on SD and they will be for the Future Kingdom Hearts 3...

Seriously this is a Big Spoil Inside
Now we learn that Vann and Penelo are really Survive on FFXII :/
NO! the IGN news item mentions that this is likely a PREQUEL because the characters look much younger.

And arias- I don't think they're milking anything until I play it. FFX-2 would probably qualify as milking it, but all of the newer FF7 projects DON'T qualify as milking it IMO because they all legitimately add to the world and story of FF7
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Old 2006-09-14, 11:11   Link #8
IchiKyo
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Ah that now change all my mind
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Old 2006-09-14, 13:22   Link #9
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsheit
NO! the IGN news item mentions that this is likely a PREQUEL because the characters look much younger.

And arias- I don't think they're milking anything until I play it. FFX-2 would probably qualify as milking it, but all of the newer FF7 projects DON'T qualify as milking it IMO because they all legitimately add to the world and story of FF7
The newer FF7 projects don't qualify as milking it because they add legitimately? Of course they do. They milk FF7 because it was their most successful Final Fantasy -ever-, selling almost 10 million copies worldwide. By your standards, it's just saying that these new works are relatively good despite being "milked" products.
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Old 2006-09-14, 13:35   Link #10
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
The newer FF7 projects don't qualify as milking it because they add legitimately? Of course they do. They milk FF7 because it was their most successful Final Fantasy -ever-, selling almost 10 million copies worldwide. By your standards, it's just saying that these new works are relatively good despite being "milked" products.
I agree with arias on this one.

The milking of FF7 is almost legendary by now.

Going back to topic...

Eventhough I dont have a DS, I am pretty interested in knowing more about this title. Let's just hope is a prequel and not a sequel.
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Old 2006-09-14, 13:36   Link #11
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Yes, the new FF 7 spin offs and Advent Children are definately cash cows riding on the FF 7 success. I don't want to be like a troll, but I'm blunt about my opinion on FF 7: it is not the least in the series, nor, IMO, is it the best in the series, but I do definately think it is way over rated. I think many westerners think it is the pinnacle of J-RPGs because for many of them, it was the first RPG they ever played or spent a significant amount of play time with, and it blew them away and such (as should your first RPG ).
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Old 2006-09-14, 15:09   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
The newer FF7 projects don't qualify as milking it because they add legitimately? Of course they do. They milk FF7 because it was their most successful Final Fantasy -ever-, selling almost 10 million copies worldwide. By your standards, it's just saying that these new works are relatively good despite being "milked" products.
"milked" typically has a negative connotation because it is usually applied to cases where a success is folllowed by all types of content in all types of media. While FF7 satisfies this requirement, it is also implied in "milked" that the corporation rushes so much to put out merchandise and sequels that the said sequels and whatnot suck. Can you really think of any case where someone has said that something was milked and the resulting products turned out to be good?

When I think of the term "milked", the first thing that comes to mind for me are those crappy games that always seem to accompany big budget hollywood movies.
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Old 2006-09-14, 17:17   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsheit
"milked" typically has a negative connotation because it is usually applied to cases where a success is folllowed by all types of content in all types of media. While FF7 satisfies this requirement, it is also implied in "milked" that the corporation rushes so much to put out merchandise and sequels that the said sequels and whatnot suck. Can you really think of any case where someone has said that something was milked and the resulting products turned out to be good?
While Dirge of Cerberus wasn't exactly "rushed"...the feedback on the game so far has been less than stellar from almost all but the most hardcore of FFVII fans who believe that game is the holy grail.

As for FFVII: AC...while it won't win any awards for storytelling or whatnot, I did find it enjoyable. That and we've yet to see how the rest of the projects turn out: they could all end up scoring big, but they could also all end up striking out (or a mixture of both). So...while I don't want to actually use the term 'milking', it is quite obvious that Square-Enix is trying to capitalize on the popularity of the FFVII franchise. But, it's not like they're the first company to try to do that...so as long as the material that comes out is actually competent, I'll be fine with that.
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Old 2006-09-14, 17:19   Link #14
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsheit
"milked" typically has a negative connotation because it is usually applied to cases where a success is folllowed by all types of content in all types of media. While FF7 satisfies this requirement, it is also implied in "milked" that the corporation rushes so much to put out merchandise and sequels that the said sequels and whatnot suck. Can you really think of any case where someone has said that something was milked and the resulting products turned out to be good?
Of course, and it's highly debatable whether the products that came after FF7 were good. Dirge of Cerberus, Advent Children had their fair share of detractors. "Milked" is more of an intention to make money than anything else, and ride on the success of an established franchise or series or game. That is what's happening with the Final Fantasy series..

What you're talking about -- the resulting quality, is more of a product from the milking process than anything else. Some people milk hastily and come out with rushed products and some milk slower because their development teams are rather large (Dirge of Cerberus obviously had to be built from ground up --- the same with AC).

You're obviously misguided.
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Old 2006-09-14, 17:44   Link #15
wsheit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Of course, and it's highly debatable whether the products that came after FF7 were good. Dirge of Cerberus, Advent Children had their fair share of detractors. "Milked" is more of an intention to make money than anything else, and ride on the success of an established franchise or series or game. That is what's happening with the Final Fantasy series..

What you're talking about -- the resulting quality, is more of a product from the milking process than anything else. Some people milk hastily and come out with rushed products and some milk slower because their development teams are rather large (Dirge of Cerberus obviously had to be built from ground up --- the same with AC).

You're obviously misguided.
bah....our disagreement is one of degree, not type

As to whether DoC and AC were good or not: I don't see how anybody can think that AC isn't a beautiful film.

DoC isn't going to win any awards, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it added narrative depth to the already established story. Certainly, it's easy to say that DoC is far superior to the crap that typically gets churned out to cash out on a licence.
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Old 2006-09-14, 17:57   Link #16
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wsheit
bah....our disagreement is one of degree, not type

As to whether DoC and AC were good or not: I don't see how anybody can think that AC isn't a beautiful film.

DoC isn't going to win any awards, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it added narrative depth to the already established story. Certainly, it's easy to say that DoC is far superior to the crap that typically gets churned out to cash out on a licence.
Enough of a degree separation to form type.

A small nudge is degrees away from a brutal punch. But I won't be getting away with it anytime if I punched your mantits.


AC being graphically beautiful had nothing to do with its content.. I don't think I ever raised a point about anyone contesting its beauty. It being a good film is a different concern entirely.. As for DoC. Well, think of Pokemon. Pokemon Silver, or Gold, or Emerald or whatever variation which is most recent is obviously a milking of the Pokemon series, wouldn't you agree? If you don't then the conversation ends here.. if you do, then it's obvious that none of the later variations are crappy poo poo compared to the original, but it's still an obvious nipple pinching milk pumping exercise.

Let's have an additional test.

If FFVII didn't do well in sales, would all of these have come out? Would the producers be content to draw upon the thickness and goodness of what formed FFVII's core to creae more spin-off products for something that sold, say, only 200,000 copies worldwide?
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Old 2006-09-15, 00:22   Link #17
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How many years has it been since the release of ff VII? Quite a few, eh?

Milking a product's success means to quickly release a whole bunch of related products that capitalize on a success while it is still hot. (It is done immediately since popularity is usually fleeting.) As a result most of the secondary products are sub-standard, but their quality has nothing to do with the accusation of "milking." Once the original product's popularity wans, then the secondary products are simply forgotten.

In this case, FF7 was released many years ago. Despite those years, it is still hot and fans have been calling for more ever since. To release related products now is not called "milking a cash cow," it is called "bowing to fan pressure." If they were "milking" it as some of you say, then these products would have been released long ago, before FFVII withstood the test of time.
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Old 2006-09-15, 00:32   Link #18
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
In this case, FF7 was released many years ago. Despite those years, it is still hot and fans have been calling for more ever since. To release related products now is not called "milking a cash cow," it is called "bowing to fan pressure." If they were "milking" it as some of you say, then these products would have been released long ago, before FFVII withstood the test of time.
I don't think your analysis is right at all.

Square did not have an attitude of producing direct sequels or related games to existing standing products.. however, things have changed since they became Squeenix and the Enix president took over as Preisdent of Squeenix. Remember, FFX seemed to have been designed as a standalone with an ambiguous ending, but it was the first ever game to have the milking process start on it.

It makes sense that the regime change saw the tit milking come in at full speed. That's why they're only milking FF7 retroactively. Perhaps creating AC the movie would be bowing the fan pressure, but capitalizing on that along with the FFVII handphone game, FFVII: Core Crisis for the PSP, and Dirge of Cerberus? That's not bowing to fan pressure; that's profit maximizing. It's also why Squeenix is considering producing episodic material to squeeze profits, and why FFXIII is going to have so many lines of product that are drawn upon a single shared "myth".

Remember, I'm not accusing SQUARE of milking, but SQUEENIX.



P.S. FFVII was created by Squaresoft. Not Square-Enix.

Edit: I got my facts wrong; the Square president went on to become the Squeenix president. What remains is my thrust that the milking happened only after FFX. And guess what, the Square president Yoichi Wada joined in 2000, the year of FFX's release.

http://www.square-enix.com/jp/company/e/officer/

Last edited by arias; 2006-09-15 at 03:29.
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Old 2006-09-15, 14:33   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Of course, and it's highly debatable whether the products that came after FF7 were good. Dirge of Cerberus, Advent Children had their fair share of detractors. "Milked" is more of an intention to make money than anything else, and ride on the success of an established franchise or series or game.
This pretty much sums up my opinion.

It seems to me that perhaps SE realized that even in the post-FFVII era, their seventh is still arguably their biggest success in terms of popularity. Maybe they were hoping to repeat that with the succeeding Final Fantasies, but eventually when they looked back at their past creations, they went "Well, there's that FFVII we made back then, you know..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Square did not have an attitude of producing direct sequels or related games to existing standing products.. however, things have changed since they became Squeenix and the Enix president took over as Preisdent of Squeenix. Remember, FFX seemed to have been designed as a standalone with an ambiguous ending, but it was the first ever game to have the milking process start on it.
Perhaps this is just hearsay, but wasn't it because of Sakaguchi that direct sequels (or something similar) of Final Fantasies weren't pursued? I heard that from a creative perspective, he thinks of Final Fantasy as one whole series made up of different and separate stories, hence why sequels back then weren't the common thing. Now that he's gone, that option is available for SE, especially after their first movie venture. Actually, even if he's still part of SE I suspect that milking some of the previous works would eventually cross his mind anyway, seeing as how it seems to be a profitable success so far.
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Old 2006-09-15, 14:50   Link #20
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FFX was NOT milked. People demanded more because they wanted a happy ending. They questioned the ending and wanted more of Yuna (and Tidus). And so they got it. Frankly, I think the game was almost as deep storywise as FFX and did have its heartjerking moments, but other than that, it really was quite cute. Yuna was nothing short of beautiful, Rikku was more hyperactive than ever, and Paine provided some form of darkness to an almost otherwise YAAAAAAAAAAY YUNA GOGOGO game. I mean so long as you play it for the continuation of a great story, you would NOT be disappointed. Frankly, I'm a sucker for a tidus/yuna story, because Yuna always did deserve a happy ending after all that she'd gone through.

FF7 AC was beautiful, yes, but after all the flash was over, I stepped back and said "so...what the hell did that movie achieve?"

And the answer more or less was a big nothing. There wasn't so much as a Cloud x Tifa development, with almost every other character taking an absolute back seat, some not even having their names mentioned more than once. It was just a big GOGO CLOUD KICK ASS LAWLAWLZ movie, though while it lasted, it was hella enjoyable... (70:00 to 84:12 or something is just 14 of the best movie minutes I have EVER seen).
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