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Old 2004-01-13, 18:02   Link #21
JAppi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
When does a series of posts become meaningful conversation?
When does a conversation become a discussion?
When does a discussion become an argument?
When does an argument become heated?
When does it all get out of control?
When should action be taken?
Should a user be banned? For how long?
Should their posts be removed?
We should think of how this applies to this thread. Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match? Were they having a dicussion or a heated argument? It all depends on your definitions of things like that. Is AG3's comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by AG3
Trying to cool things down might have worked if the habitual flamers were capable of rational thought, which they usually don't seem to be.
A flame? Should he be banned from the forum for a day or two? Hell since he's a vetran he should be banned for the slightest thing resembling a flame! Atleast that's what someone else thought in his post.

Scolding a flamer/troll does absolutly nothing. It just lets them know that someone has responded to their post and that they can post another flame/troll post.

Trolls/Flamers tend to only flame in certain threads. These threads are usually mindless threads that don't fall under the category of "Meaningful conversation." or threads that have progressed past meaningful conversation into the area of heated discussions. So the best solution is to try and keep everything a "Meaningful Conversation" If a thread recieves a flame counter it with some "meaningful conversation." Keep this in mind and you too can help fight forum fires.
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Old 2004-01-13, 18:14   Link #22
Worldestroyer
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I agree with JAppi, don't fan the flames of forest fires by talking to a Flamer. Like he said, they usually just want to gain attention and them selves are mently fucked up to start with. But then there are the flamers who are so fed up with horribly stupid posts and threads that they just respond and try to stop the people from talking. Or to show their displeasure with the Post/thread.

BTW: if i see 1 more Dbz Vs. Naruto thread, i think i'm going to go insane
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Old 2004-01-13, 23:19   Link #23
diabolistic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammie
awww.... that was really nicely put.

maybe we should use my 3 warning rule that I use with my students?

1. 5 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod
2. 10 min timeout on AS: pm from a Mod plus 1 day ban
3. no recess or freetime on AS: pm from a Mod plus 3-5 ban

lol... this is only a joke!!

In the old country, the teachers took the deliquent child to the town square and flogged him to within an inch of their lives

(also a joke... please don't research what country i'm from ^^; )

My own views are.. i guess, a little harsh.
bad behavior should be handled with quick and direct punishment.

don't even bother with temporary bans, and jump straight to permbans.
if they want to rejoin animesuki, they should send you an email expressing first their apologies, and second, the reason to why they should be allowed back into the forums.

and dealing with flame wars..
unless they are directed at me i try to ignore them, otherwise,.. there IS a pm function that allows me to convey my personal opinions concerning the offender's mother, extended family, and sexual orientation.. though in all honesty, i haven't been a victim of a flame war yet (phew).
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Old 2004-01-13, 23:38   Link #24
Keitaro
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I say animesuki needs more mods, the more the better. Their are times when not a single mod is online for hours, sometimes even a whole day. Not like the current mods are not doing their jobs but they're just isn't enough of them to stop/prevent flame wars and enforce the current forum rules. But like what NoSanninWa said about having other forum members fighting the flames and helping to enforce the rules is also a good solution. I'll go with either just as long as the animesuki forums stays flame free.
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Last edited by Keitarou20; 2004-01-13 at 23:51.
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Old 2004-01-13, 23:44   Link #25
Kaka
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Hmmm.........personally I think animesuki is kind of a nice place with not too many flammings............(well......yeah, I haven't been here for a while ^^bbb) so I guess it isn't necessary to get more mod.

and i can see many flammers are gathering in anime.mircx.com's new forum........
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Old 2004-01-14, 10:01   Link #26
Megane
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First of all, I'd like to apologise if any of my contributions on these forums fall under the flamebait (or outright flaming) category. I was pretty surprised when JAppi said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAppi
Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match?
I had never considered my posts to be flames, but perhaps I'm working with a different definition of flame here? I know that quite often I continue along a line of discussion that may best be left alone. I realise that sometimes I'm not very sutble, a little heavy-handed with my words. I don't make a habit out of challenging other people's opinions, but I like to see topics evolve, to branch out slightly from the original premise.

Yes, it's something I've done with this thread. I took the side of the extreme liberal, fearing any form of oppression that may result from an increase of thread lockdowns or user bans. I thought it would be interesting to question those who had posted, to make them really think about not just the fact that perhaps there was an increased level of flaming, but also to think about the ramifications brought about by any change. I'm not trying to push anyone into an argument, I like to think I am very suggestive with my opinions, rather than pretending that the case I put forwad is an invincible structure.

All in all, it was only a bit of intellectual fun. You'll probably find me not to be so opinionated in real life. Now, if this behavior is frowned upon, I'll stop it. With all this talk of both mods and users spotting an increase in flaming, the problem must be worse than I had originally observed. Perhaps what I need, is an absolute answer to the question JAppi asked indirectly (if I read his post right), what is a flame?

Hopefully some of the posts in this thread will provide good material towards deciding when one crosses over the line and enters flame-territory. Perhaps that's another reason why I've been a little forward wih my replies, because I wanted to make people realise that it isn't obvious (at least to me) what constitutes a flame or not. By replying with a little attitude, I've tried to get as close to the border of sensible discussion as possible.

So for now, I bow to my fellow forum members and stand down from my soapbox. I offer my apologies if at any point anyone felt I ruined the mood, and I leave the floor open for others to tear my ramblings to bits :D
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Old 2004-01-14, 10:41   Link #27
Cammie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAppi
We should think of how this applies to this thread. Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match? Were they having a dicussion or a heated argument? It all depends on your definitions of things like that. Is AG3's comment



A flame? Should he be banned from the forum for a day or two? Hell since he's a vetran he should be banned for the slightest thing resembling a flame! Atleast that's what someone else thought in his post.
All we are doing is expressing our opinion. I like that Megane sticks to what he believes.. In all fairness I like debating with him because it gives me a reason to post a response. LOL... its all in good fun, right Megane?

JAppi I'll just ignore.... because I know you like to start flames.

Last edited by Cammie; 2004-01-15 at 12:29.
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Old 2004-01-14, 10:59   Link #28
Megane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammie
All we are doing is expressing our opinion. I like that Megane sticks to what she believes.. In all fairness I like debating with her because it gives me a reason to post a response. LOL... its all in good fun, right Megane?
...
Ah, more evidence that not everyone agrees on what a flame is. It pleases me that someone else thinks my posts are non-harmful. I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person, and I'm glad at least one person in the world likes debating with me
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Old 2004-01-14, 11:07   Link #29
dragonz20
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Megane,

you didn't start a flame war here. All you started was a good spirited debate. We (I and Cammie) were only questioning where you were coming from to better understand what you were trying to get at.

now Jappi is different. you have a tendency to jump into a thread and post some rude comments without providing decent feedback. you're one of the reasons why this thread was started. a good example is this:

"Why the hell does this thread still exist?
Shouldn't it be obvious? Buying bootlegs or downloading licensed anime makes you a leeching fuck. If you are a leeching fuck, you should probably kill yourself.
Thank you.
That is all the thread needs to contain! Not 5 pages of moraliy bullshit!"


This was posted by Jappi in a thread that was eventually closed a little bit later. I was actively posting on this thread so that pissed me off a bit. And from what I hear, you've done this numerous times and I've seen at least one other person in here posting his frustration over your flaming tendencies. Regardless of whether the thread was getting stale or not, you have no right to be rude even if you wanted to get the thread closed. I admit, I've also been rude to others but that was during an argument. i was basically fighting back. you jump into an argument and start to flame for no reason. you are only 14 but there are many young posters in here as well and they are nowhere near as bothersome as you are. if you want to post a comment do it but don't pepper it with your cursings and force the thread to be closed by a mod.

as for your comments. who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation? that's opinionated. i may see it as meaningful and you may not based on interest. if you are not interested, stay out of it. but obviously from my example, it was interesting enough for you to enter the thread, read it and then post a comment. if the thread has been draggin' on for a while with no progress then either the mod will close it themselves or it will simply die. but don't put in your worthless flaming two cents in it... so i found it very humorous and ironic for you to be posting in this thread since you are one of the problems we are referring to.
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Old 2004-01-14, 11:20   Link #30
Keitaro
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Interesting.... how a thread about flamers turned into a flame.

Edit: For the punk who gave me a bad rep in this thread, go ahead and give me 50 more bad reps cuz I dont care. :fingers:
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Last edited by Keitarou20; 2004-01-17 at 00:54.
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Old 2004-01-14, 11:26   Link #31
dragonz20
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no one flamed. i was restating an event that happened. and i politely pointed out that jappi had been annoying recently and he's a habitual flamer. i didn't cuss him out in anyway. this is not flaming. this subject is a gray area in need of further discussion...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Keitarou20
Interesting.... how a thread about flamers turned into a flame.
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Old 2004-01-14, 11:48   Link #32
Keitaro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
no one flamed. i was restating an event that happened. and i politely pointed out that jappi had been annoying recently and he's a habitual flamer. i didn't cuss him out in anyway. this is not flaming. this subject is a gray area in need of further discussion...
you maybe right but I can see the potential for a flame war.
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Last edited by Keitarou20; 2004-01-14 at 14:57.
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Old 2004-01-14, 14:46   Link #33
JAppi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
First of all, I'd like to apologise if any of my contributions on these forums fall under the flamebait (or outright flaming) category. I was pretty surprised when JAppi said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAppi
Notice how cammie and megane started to push this thread into a flame match?
I had never considered my posts to be flames, but perhaps I'm working with a different definition of flame here? I know that quite often I continue along a line of discussion that may best be left alone. I realise that sometimes I'm not very sutble, a little heavy-handed with my words. I don't make a habit out of challenging other people's opinions, but I like to see topics evolve, to branch out slightly from the original premise.
Well, I never said you were pushing it to a flame. I'm sorry. I wasn't very clear. I interpreted your definitions as a flow chart for forums.

Series of posts > Meaningful Conversation > Arguement > Heated debate > Flame heaven > Mass naked child events

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAppi
Yes, it's something I've done with this thread. I took the side of the extreme liberal, fearing any form of oppression that may result from an increase of thread lockdowns or user bans.
You are absolutly correct, closing more threads won't stop flames. The flames will still be there. They will just be more threads with flames in them. AFAIK the mods don't like locking threads anyways. I remember NoSanninWa saying once in the channel that whenever he locks a thread it reminds him that someone just doesn't get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
All in all, it was only a bit of intellectual fun. You'll probably find me not to be so opinionated in real life. Now, if this behavior is frowned upon, I'll stop it.
Me too, sometimes I like to start long winded discussions just because I like nested quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
what I need, is an absolute answer to the question JAppi asked indirectly (if I read his post right), what is a flame?
That is the question! And no the answer is not 42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megane
Hopefully some of the posts in this thread will provide good material towards deciding when one crosses over the line and enters flame-territory. Perhaps that's another reason why I've been a little forward wih my replies, because I wanted to make people realise that it isn't obvious (at least to me) what constitutes a flame or not. By replying with a little attitude, I've tried to get as close to the border of sensible discussion as possible.
It should be left entirely up to the mods, this *is* their forum and they should get the final say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
Megane,

you didn't start a flame war here. All you started was a good spirited debate.
But when will this debate cross the line into flame territory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
We (I and Cammie) were only questioning where you were coming from to better understand what you were trying to get at.
You shouldn't be deciding what other people are thinking. It will result in flames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
now Jappi is different. you have a tendency to jump into a thread and post some rude comments without providing decent feedback. you're one of the reasons why this thread was started. a good example is this:

Example removed
I find that offensive. You are flaming me. Do not try and belittle me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
I was actively posting on this thread so that pissed me off a bit. And from what I hear, you've done this numerous times and I've seen at least one other person in here posting his frustration over your flaming tendencies.
Whoop dee doo! One whole person! I also get tons of positive feedback. Infact I have a whole fanclub of people who think I'm god like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
I admit, I've also been rude to others but that was during an argument.
So I can be rude to you right now and somehow it's okay? Why can't I just jump into the arguement and insult people? Is that any different at all then insulting people in the arguement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
you are only 14
/me points at the profile button. You might wanna check your math again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
but there are many young posters in here as well and they are nowhere near as bothersome as you are.
It's been established before, the age of the poster really has no bearing on whether or not they are capable of posting garbage. Bfdd who has been banned from the forum for posting flames is signifigantly older then me.

if you want to post a comment do it but don't pepper it with your cursings and force the thread to be closed by a mod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
as for your comments. who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation?
And what gives you the right to decide what's a meaningful conversation and what's not a meaningful conversation? My string of curse words can be seen as a meaninful converstation to some people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
but don't put in your worthless flaming two cents in it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
as for your comments. who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation?
So, who are you to decide what is a meaningful conversation? You said that my posts are worthless. That is a flame. You directly insult me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonz20
I found it very humorous and ironic for you to be posting in this thread since you are one of the problems we are referring to.
Once again you flamed me. What makes you think you're so much better then me and you're allowed to flame me?

It is pointless for us to debate this. It *is* in the end up to the moderators to decide what is appropriate and what is not appropriate.

Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2004-01-14 at 16:16. Reason: Bizarre double-spacing was irritating to look at
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Old 2004-01-14, 15:21   Link #34
dragonz20
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I don't even know why I bother with you sometimes...

My whole point about meaningful conversation is that when there are several people posting and debating in a thread, one should not jump in and throw useless comments full of curses (as you have been doing) for the sole purpose of closing the thread. so if people A, B, C are chatting away and person D jumps in and post "you guys are morons. it should be blah blah blah and that's it. why do you all bother to continue jawing away pointlessly.. this thread should be closed!!!" , then that's outright flaming and you have done that. to those people, it was a meaningful conversation in that thread and it's not fair to them. you forced the topic to be closed because of your post. so if you don't value the topic of the thread and then avoid it. if you think your behavior can be considered meaningful conversation then urrr.. yeah okay...

anyway, if you aren't going to contribute to a thread, then don't flame. you have done that. as for me flaming you in this thread. i don't think so because the topic is about habitual flamers and i am just stating that you have done this before... i can even pull out the thread you've done it in.. you haven't posted anything in that thread except that one lone flaming post.

and for the age comment, i meant it as in you are 14 (or whatever you are i don't really care) but it shouldn't matter because there are people younger or older who can behave properly in AS and you haven't done that. it's not my problem if you lack english comprehension.

edit: and just to prove myself, goto this closed thread here. tell me exactly how many post in this entire thread you have made... it's one... then tell me what the contents of your post were. it's the example i posted a bit earlier. i rest my case.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...0&page=1&pp=20
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Last edited by dragonz20; 2004-01-14 at 15:38.
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Old 2004-01-14, 16:21   Link #35
Vulkar
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come on Jappi and Dragonz20. No need to get hot-headed and point fingers at each other. It's taking away from the purpose of the thread, which is to discuss habitual flaming and what can be done about it. Deciding who does or does not flame specifically isn't really the forum member's job. It breeds arguments and probably should be left to the people with any real authority here: the moderators. However, if you wish to continue accusing each other of flaming why don't you do it through private messages.
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Old 2004-01-14, 16:21   Link #36
AG3
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Please, I didn't make this thread to let people argue over who have done what, or to discuss whether they were justified or not. I made this in hopes that people might consider their own role in the forum society. Your intention may certainly not be to start a flamewar, but that might well be the end result if you let tensions gradually build up.

Sometimes it's just better to leave a "discussion" well alone, even if you feel like you haven't said everything you want to. If you fear that your "opponent" might think less of you for "fleeing" the topic, know that almost every sensible member will think higher of you for being the person to show some common sense. Some people just can't be argued with no matter how much in the right you are, and the trick is to know when further discussion is futile.

Even if it feels like a loss to you, having avoided another flamewar will leave the forums a more enjoyable place for everyone else.
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Old 2004-01-14, 16:42   Link #37
NoSanninWa
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Hey people! Time to take a moment out for a reality check. All of a sudden people are arguing over who said what. I think that JAppi was just being tactlessly sarcastic as usual. Unfortunately sarcasm is a difficult art on the internet and JAppi's can be hard to understand. (Although I agree that he was pushing for a temp ban with that quote dragonz20 brought up.)

Megane made an interesting point about how arguments turn to flames. JAppi was just pointing out how that related to the current thread. He wasn't saying that Cammie and Megane were flaming each other, just that it could be misconstrued that way. Of course now things really are edging toward flames. We are entering the heated argument part of the cycle.

Nobody has actually leveled any flames here, but if we are going to discuss flaming we should try to recognize the early part of the cycle so that we can stop it. I think that everyone actually agrees on the point, but you are arguing over the exact words. Listen to what AG3 just said and simply ignore the non-existant problem. Don't allow communication to break down like this.
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Old 2004-01-14, 18:59   Link #38
JAppi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Hey people! Time to take a moment out for a reality check. All of a sudden people are arguing over who said what. I think that JAppi was just being tactlessly sarcastic as usual. Unfortunately sarcasm is a difficult art on the internet and JAppi's can be hard to understand. (Although I agree that he was pushing for a temp ban with that quote dragonz20 brought up.)

Megane made an interesting point about how arguments turn to flames. JAppi was just pointing out how that related to the current thread. He wasn't saying that Cammie and Megane were flaming each other, just that it could be misconstrued that way. Of course now things really are edging toward flames. We are entering the heated argument part of the cycle.

Nobody has actually leveled any flames here, but if we are going to discuss flaming we should try to recognize the early part of the cycle so that we can stop it. I think that everyone actually agrees on the point, but you are arguing over the exact words. Listen to what AG3 just said and simply ignore the non-existant problem. Don't allow communication to break down like this.

Thank you NoSanninWa, that is exactly what I meant. I don't really have anything else to say, but it's nice that atleast one person understood what I meant.
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Old 2004-01-14, 19:09   Link #39
durrem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Megane made an interesting point about how arguments turn to flames. JAppi was just pointing out how that related to the current thread. He wasn't saying that Cammie and Megane were flaming each other, just that it could be misconstrued that way.
Actually, when I was reading through that series of posts, that little pending flamewar alarm was going off in my head as well....
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Old 2004-01-14, 19:23   Link #40
Superchop
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Flamewars always depend on the people, the main reason is that people always want other people to see things the way they themselves see it (whether it's true or false)...and most of the time they never take into consideration that other people have their own opinions (again...whether it's true or false)....and with this continued stubborness they keep going on and on about the same thing....and it usually doesn't take long for things to take a wrong turn cause of the stubborness to keep on going...it's very rare to see someone give in or just walk away...

Another reason for flamewars is that sometimes people act very sarcastic (kinda like JAppi) and with that sarcasm other people take it the wrong way and always think it's some kind of insult...and with that they immediately have to argue or say something which usually is just as worst as the comment made by the sarcastic individual...now it's a bit hard to tell when a person is being sarcastic with writing but for the most part we can't take everything everyone says seriously...even though it's obvious when someone really isn't sarcastic...but with those we can't go in ranting and raving...if anyone needs to say anything they should just walk in defending the subject at hand like normal with no insults...and if the person keeps on going then it's a lost cause to keep on arguing and the defending person should just step aside...but like i said...the stubbornness kicks in and sometimes people can't just turn away until they change the other person's mind (something that very rarely happens)

*sigh* i guess that's all i wanted to say...there have been a few more flamewars then there have been in the past...but most of the time they're ended very quickly...
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