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Old 2006-08-27, 02:33   Link #301
Syaoran
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Urzu, you could a look at Rosetta Stone, but honestly, apart from pronounciation, you learn nothing. You don't even know why they use a particle or that suffix in verbs i.e. A way better solutions is a class or books such as Genki
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Old 2006-08-28, 15:27   Link #302
Spectacular_Insanity
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While Genki is okay, our class uses Nakama (1), the college level book. For beginners, those in Japanese 1 or 2, its fine, but higher levels should begin to use more Kanji in their readings, and in their writing. I'm in Japanese 3, and although my Spanish is much better (and my Japanese comparable to a 4 year old kid), I offer to help with what I can in this lesson here.

But in my opinion, much more than rudimentary phrases, you can't learn anything from online sources. A proper way to learn is from a qualified teacher (preferably a Japanese native). Our teacher's name is Ito Sensei (Mrs. Ito), and she's very efficient, and doesn't waste time with phrases when learning essential grammar is more important. For instance, particles & sentence structure (syntax).

Not to mention, without a proper instructor, you lose a lot of explanation of inflections and when to use certain forms on the ends of sentences, like yo or ne. A lot gets lost in translation otherwise, as more often than not, direct translations end up not being correct at all.

PS. No offense, and though I hate to say this, but those who study the Japanese language should learn hiragana, katakana, and kanji, or they are not really learning the language. Learning Japanese in romaji is... well... like learning french without accent marks and definite articles. It's just not right.
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Old 2006-08-29, 10:44   Link #303
Doraneko
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Thanks a lot for all the suggestions on J-Dramas. I am going to start with Densha Otoko first, and maybe GTO or Joou no Kyousitsu after finishing that.

On self-learning, I think it is a good idea to attend some basic courses first before getting into that. Because if you have some of the most fundamental concepts wrong, you will have a hard time when you proceed to the intermediate level. Not to mention that it would be very difficult to correct them by that time. For softwares, I really have no idea if there is any decent one out there. But if you want to brush up your pronounciation, a text book set with CDs included can work as well (still nothing can beat learning from a native speaker in class).

I can't really get why there are so many English textbooks on Japanese use romaji instead of hiragana. Frankly romanji is something that is, at most, only useful for your first week of study, and should be thrown away immediately after that. Language is not only about speaking and listening, but also writing and reading. These four components go hand-in-hand with each other. You are only trapping yourself if you try to neglect any of them.

In our city, the basic alphabets are taught in the very first lesson of any language course, and you are required to memorize all of them in 1-2 weeks. Anyone failing to do so probably have to leave and take another language. And of course you can never find one single textbook using romanization as shortcuts for impatient learners.
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Old 2006-09-14, 04:52   Link #304
bluemist
i am the mist
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Japan
http://www.pimsleurapproach.com/
http://www.rosettastone.com/

What do you think of these language learning approaches?

I am quite stuck in my language learning right now. My problem is that in conversations, I can more or less understand what is spoken to me... but when the time comes that I should formulate a sentence to answer back, I can't find any words to say.

Would Pimsleur or Rosetta help me in that? Or do I need another approach? I've been in Japan for over a month now, and I feel like I'm not progressing AT ALL, despite being with mostly Japanese people at the office. I'm literally immersing myself and yet I really just don't get it.

Once again, I can understand them, but I can't talk back. What do I do?
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Old 2006-09-16, 03:08   Link #305
Gibilterra
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As a matter of reality、Education Ministry should edit systematic japanese.
That is because japanese has redundant areas.
By the way I'm studying russian,so people around me regard me rare.
You trying to study japanese?
Oh,you are rare people as me.
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Old 2006-09-16, 16:53   Link #306
CarpeDiem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity
But in my opinion, much more than rudimentary phrases, you can't learn anything from online sources. A proper way to learn is from a qualified teacher (preferably a Japanese native). Our teacher's name is Ito Sensei (Mrs. Ito), and she's very efficient, and doesn't waste time with phrases when learning essential grammar is more important. For instance, particles & sentence structure (syntax).
While learning in a classroom environment definitely has its benefits, I think it's a bit ignorant to say that you can't learn anything but "rudimentary phrases" from online sources. Sites such as The Japanese Page and Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese Grammar are very helpful sites that offer much more than just phrases. The Japanese Page has a very active message board where you can get input from other students, a couple of native speakers, and some JETs. Tae Kim's site has good pages that covers various aspects of Japanese grammar.

実は私、そんなサイトで日本語を勉強しています。私の日本語はまだまだですけど、がんばってい ます。

Quote:
PS. No offense, and though I hate to say this, but those who study the Japanese language should learn hiragana, katakana, and kanji, or they are not really learning the language. Learning Japanese in romaji is... well... like learning french without accent marks and definite articles. It's just not right.
I agree. Not to mention that you end up getting caught in a lot of homophones if you don't have the kanji to help figure out what someone else is writing. Despite being someone who isn't entirely thrilled about learning French, the accent marks and definite articles are aspects that are essential when learning the language because English really does operate illogically. Most ESLs probably have a hard time figuring out how to pronounce English, given the lack of accent marks and pretty arbitrary pronunciation system.

EDIT: Fixed links
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Old 2006-09-21, 21:28   Link #307
gencbiba
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I was interested in learning Japanese, but seeing how hard it may be, I might just give up! Lol.... I'll just go learn a bit more of Italian since I'm not sharp in talking. However, I still am a bit interested in Japanese so I'll ask this... I'm only interested in speaking, and not much reading, so, is it possible to learn to speak simple phrases in a short amount of time? I think once I learn the basics, I can learn everything else myself by studying.
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Old 2006-09-21, 23:19   Link #308
raikage
日本語を食べません!
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gencbiba
I was interested in learning Japanese, but seeing how hard it may be, I might just give up! Lol.... I'll just go learn a bit more of Italian since I'm not sharp in talking. However, I still am a bit interested in Japanese so I'll ask this... I'm only interested in speaking, and not much reading, so, is it possible to learn to speak simple phrases in a short amount of time? I think once I learn the basics, I can learn everything else myself by studying.
I don't see why not.

My local community college does offer a course dedicated to just being able to speak.
Granted, you won't learn much, but it's something.
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Old 2006-09-22, 03:37   Link #309
rio
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To gencbiba-san

>I'm only interested in speaking, and not much reading, so, is it possible to learn to speak simple phrases in a short amount of time?


i am going to write my notion of the language and how it may be for you .


i don't exactly know whether you will speak Japanese in a short amount of time.
but, speaking japanese is far easier than reading that.


in japan, many people from other countries can speak japanese fluently, but,
reading is an another problem.
there are people who cannot read or write kanji much, even they have lived in japan
for 16 years or so but they can speak japanese fluently.
and actually, there are also people who can read and write japanese fluently too.

i think that depends on how well you are interested in the language, or how well they
want to acquire the language.


i think japanese language seems very difficult, but to be able to speak it is not so difficult.
because i think once you can get used to the structure of the language, you will be able to speak
that easily because there are few exceptions of structure of the language.


as for reading , it is extreamly difficult, even for japanese (especially for children )
so if you don't want to learn that , i think you don't need to do that absolutely.

but, in my opinion, i think learning reading that would enlarge your world and outlook remarkably.

japanese language places great importance on the writing system.
the 3 writing systems of japanese makes japanese japanese.
those are a key of japanese language and are its identity.
so the systems have a great influence on speaking of it naturally.

when japanese people speak,
they imagin the characters, such as kanji and katakana , hiragana
because there are a lot of word written by kanji or with hiragana which has same pronouciation and different meaning(each kanji has its own meaning)
and words of foreign things and people and slangs which are written by katakana.
such things are needed because of not only the problem of necessity,
but also japanese culture and japanese sense of values.

so only speaking or listening the language would enable you to watch anime( talk)
roughly and you can enjoy it
but it does not give you all of values of the anime and images of the words the characters are
having the meaning in that exactly.

so perhaps only speaking japanese will cause some trouble for you in the future(this is only my expectation )


the reason why i wrote my notion of this language is that i want you to know the fact now.


but that is only my personal notion, so how you take that is up to you.

but i really wish you would be able to enjoy what you do in japanese.

ganbatte kudasai. good luck~=☆



∮if you have something which are incomprehensible
or anything, please say it and ask me.

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Old 2006-09-22, 12:02   Link #310
gencbiba
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To tell you the truth, I come from a multi-lingual family so I don't think learning how to read would be a problem. My family can speak Chinese, Russian, Italian, French, German, and Arabic... Not that I'm trying to boast or anything, I'm just stating that I think I would have a pretty good chance to learn quickly since I've been exposed to many languages over my years.
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Old 2006-09-25, 09:46   Link #311
Spectacular_Insanity
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The only thing with that is... how will you be able to formulate sentences without knowing basic grammar construction?
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Old 2006-09-25, 12:26   Link #312
Kyuusai
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There are many gaijin who get by in Japan able to speak fairly well but being nearly completely illiterate, kanji-wise.

Nonetheless, don't sell yourself short. Yes, learning kanji is a big job, but it's not the nightmare people make it out to be. On top of that, one can become semi-literate with a fairly small number of kanji.

And if you learn the radicals and study them in context, you'll find it's much, much easier to memorize than it initially seems. Just by themselves, it would be very, very hard, but as you recognize their patterns and are able to map it to the spoken language, the rocky road becomes a good bit smoother.

But even if you decide to shun kanji, at least learn kana. It's not that hard, and it will pay off tremendously.
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Old 2006-09-28, 04:26   Link #313
DingoEnderZOE2
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I would like to know a simple question about a Japanese phase. Can the Phase "Kanpai" be used before biting into a meal instead of drinks? I saw it on tv once with two Gaijins saying it and I was wonder if thats right.
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Old 2006-09-28, 16:05   Link #314
martino
makes no files now
 
 
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Has anyone managed to pick up some Japanese(spoken) just by watching anime or other stuff spoken in Japanese?

I've have watched about 330 hours(~14 days) of anime in Japanese and by now I'm able to understand the meanings of simple sentences. For example I just shut my eyes while watching for a few seconds, listen to what they're saying and then play it back while watching the subs. I can usually get the basic meaning of the sentence, up to a certain level. Long sentences are just impossible for me to get. Myself I know Slovak, Italian, English and a bit of French and Latin. I never really had problems studying a foreign language. It's more my motivation that fails me. Is it possible to learn Japanese(I mean just on a basic level) whithout actually knowing the writing(kanji and the other ones)?
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Old 2006-09-29, 09:46   Link #315
Spectacular_Insanity
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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Sometimes I can, but usually its only a few words here and there, and sometimes when the adjectives are conjugated into the more complicated tenses like the volitional I get lost and confused.
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Old 2006-09-29, 13:18   Link #316
Furudanuki
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Edit: Please disregard post - I was able to find a source for the info I needed.
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Last edited by Furudanuki; 2006-09-29 at 17:35.
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Old 2006-09-29, 14:10   Link #317
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino
Has anyone managed to pick up some Japanese(spoken) just by watching anime or other stuff spoken in Japanese?
I don't know about actually picking it up, but after watching for a while I have been able to grasp some basic knowledge (very very basic) and can identify words and occasional phrases, and in some cases even be able to predict the general idea of what is being said. Oddly enough I've even noticed some similarities in some words to words of the same meaning in my language, tamil, but it's probably just a coincidence.
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Old 2006-09-29, 20:04   Link #318
Ziv
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how do you spell the word for "save me"? is it "taskite"?
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Old 2006-09-30, 00:22   Link #319
rio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziv
how do you spell the word for "save me"? is it "taskite"?

"tasukete" desu.

たすけて
助けて。


"tasukete kudasai" is a formal way of that.
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Old 2006-10-01, 05:10   Link #320
Bloodseeker
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1. Its frustrating waiting for groups to translate Japanese games.

2. The best way to solve these kinds of problems is to eliminate the middle man.

There have been a few times where I was slightly tempted to learn Japanese under that thought process, but really, I don't think that it would be worth it to dedicate hundreds of hours mastering a language that I'm never going to use outside of anime, manga, and videogames. Not only that, but living in a community where not a whole lot of people speak it as their primary language would make it MUCH harder to learn. And I wouldn't be able to make any money off of it either, seeing as how Japanese translators aren't exactly in high demand...

The only way that I'd take the time and effort to learn the language is if either myself or one of my close friends or family members moved to Japan. (which actually isn't as unlikely as it sounds... my mom is about to retire and she's looking for another job; she loves Japan, and has talked about looking for work over there on more than one occassion; I doubt that she'll even look, but if she does look and decides to take a job over there, I'll probably live over there for six months or so and try to learn the language)

Last edited by Bloodseeker; 2006-10-01 at 16:43.
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