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Old 2006-09-29, 01:13   Link #261
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by miss rave
So wait Chiyo stated that Sasori didn't avoid the last attack on purpose, not hesitation .. yet you still wana argue it was? ....
Yes, because it was coming out of Chiyo's mouth, who has no idea what was going on with Sasori, not Sasori's.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:16   Link #262
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Yes, because it was coming out of Chiyo's mouth, who has no idea what was going on with Sasori, not Sasori's.
No it's Kish telling you something through Chiyo.

It's like Yondaime telling Kakashi that the he couldn't see the Iwa nins counter, it didn't come out of Kakashi's mouth but it's very obvious -.-.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:24   Link #263
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss rave
No it's Kish telling you something through Chiyo.

It's like Yondaime telling Kakashi that the he couldn't see the Iwa nins counter, it didn't come out of Kakashi's mouth but it's very obvious -.-.
It doesn't change the fact that it was coming from Chiyo's mouth. If Kishi would have wanted to make sure that was the case, he could have used Sasori's mouth not Chiyo's. If Sasori had some reason to not kill Chiyo, which should be something important, he could have said that before dying, since he had enough time to talk.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:27   Link #264
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
It doesn't change the fact that it was coming from Chiyo's mouth. If Kishi would have wanted to make sure that was the case, he could have used Sasori's mouth not Chiyo's. If Sasori had some reason to not kill Chiyo, which should be something important, he could have said that before dying, since he had enough time to talk.
Said what? that he didn't avoid it on purpose? he wouldn't admit that he thought women were pathetic and called Chiyo more pathetic when he learned she spent all that time developing the jutsu that could make him a real.

Chiyo said it because it was best told by her, she made the attack she knew what Sasori could of done. But knew he didn't.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:29   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Hesitation does not always refer to a conscious decision of not attacking, it is more like in between. For instance, noticing something out-of-blue might surprise the person, and stop him for a brief moment - it is not something he might have wanted to do. And that moment might be the deciding factor in such a fight. (This might also answer your question, Airaku. The reflexes doesn't have to happen in a defending way. Even a moment of freezing would count as a reflex, leaving you open for attacks. It is not something that you can control and synchronize with your goal.)

I think such a moment of carelessness can make perfect sense, if you compare the opponents in that fight. Compared to Chiyo, Sasori was lacking in experience. So, when the fight reaches its final stage, and the fighters are at their limits, the one with less experience would be more susceptible to make mistakes.
I remember when Naruto went on the mission to the wave country, in which he first encountered actually combat between ninjas. The demon brothers ambushed Team 7, Naruto was caught off guard and froze up, but such an incident rarely happened again. I understand now that this is an example of the kind of hesitation you are referring to, but can you seriously compare Sasoriís experience to that of a genin? Being an S-rank criminal, surely he has developed some nerve.
Quote:
Despite Chiyo's words, it is really difficult to assume that emotionless Sasori, whose main desire was killing Chiyo since the beginning of the fight, and who has the upperhand at that last minute, would change his decision and way of fighting for the sake of Chiyo. It is really hard to believe.
Itís not that hard to believe since a lot of emotion drama was exchanged during the course of that battle. Itís kind of a trend really; in almost every major Naruto battle hasnít there been at least one character that had a change of heart at some point.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:41   Link #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss rave
Said what? that he didn't avoid it on purpose? he wouldn't admit that he thought women were pathetic and called Chiyo more pathetic when he learned she spent all that time developing the jutsu that could make him a real.

Chiyo said it because it was best told by her, she made the attack she knew what Sasori could of done. But knew he didn't.
If Sasori were to be the old Sasori, the one Chiyo knew, I would have bought her comment, assuming that Chiyo knew Sasori in and out. But, that wasn't the case. Maybe Chiyo assumed Sasori is not a person that would make a mistake, but it is not enough for me. Everything in that fight told us Sasori would have "definitely" preferred killing over death.

Also, if what you say were to be true, admitting that he gave up on his life would be easier than making that decision (which would involve a significant emotional change in his character, although for me it is not likely).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airaku
I remember when Naruto went on the mission to the wave country, in which he first encountered actually combat between ninjas. The demon brothers ambushed Team 7, Naruto was caught off guard and froze up, but such an incident rarely happened again. I understand now that this is an example of the kind of hesitation you are referring to, but can you seriously compare Sasori’s experience to that of a genin? Being an S-rank criminal, surely he has developed some nerve.
Naruto froze quite long, and the opponents were chuunin. In Sasori's case, everything is at a higher level. The hesitation period should be very short, but that should also be the case for the impact of their skills, i.e., the amount of time required for Chiyo to obtain the upperhand should be small as well.
Quote:
It’s not that hard to believe since a lot of emotion drama was exchanged during the course of that battle. It’s kind of a trend really; in almost every major Naruto battle hasn’t there been at least one character that had a change of heart at some point.
But, that shouldn't be the case for a puppetified human, who wasn't exposed to the kind of talk Naruto gave to Zabuza.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:48   Link #267
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
If Sasori were to be the old Sasori, the one Chiyo knew, I would have bought her comment, assuming that Chiyo knew Sasori in and out. But, that wasn't the case. Maybe Chiyo assumed Sasori is not a person that would make a mistake, but it is not enough for me. Everything in that fight told us Sasori would have "definitely" preferred killing over death.

Also, if what you say were to be true, admitting that he gave up on his life would be easier than making that decision (which would involve a significant emotional change in his character, although for me it is not likely).
Sasori changed in like the last minute. He attacked Chiyo on purpose and didn't avoid on purpose. What Sasori was at the start was different to what he was at the end. Chiyo said that because she knew Sasori could of avoided it he saw her attack.

Admitting that he gave up on his life? what life? he admitted he wasn't a puppet nor a human, killing and dying to him didn't seem to matter at all.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:56   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss rave
Sasori changed in like the last minute. He attacked Chiyo on purpose and didn't avoid on purpose. What Sasori was at the start was different to what he was at the end. Chiyo said that because she knew Sasori could of avoided it he saw her attack.

Admitting that he gave up on his life? what life? he admitted he wasn't a puppet nor a human, killing and dying to him didn't seem to matter at all.
I didn't see any difference. He lost and behaved accordingly instead of continuing to bark like a dog. And, for your Chiyo comment, that is why I said, the Sasori Chiyo was basing her opinions on was not the Sasori she actually knew. And that is one of the reasons I don't trust her opinion.

If killing or death wouldn't have mattered to him, he would have given up at the beginning. Even an emotionless person should have a goal to achieve that would force him to avoid getting killed.
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Old 2006-09-29, 02:00   Link #269
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I didn't see any difference. He lost and behaved accordingly instead of continuing to bark like a dog. And, for your Chiyo comment, that is why I said, the Sasori Chiyo was basing her opinions on was not the Sasori she actually knew. And that is one of the reasons I don't trust her opinion.

If killing or death wouldn't have mattered to him, he would have given up at the beginning. Even an emotionless person should have a goal to achieve that would force him to avoid getting killed.
It's not her opinion ok, it's kish telling you something. Chiyo wasn't all .. oh i never expected he would do that, she just stated what happened. Chiyo wanted to even bring Sasori back from being a puppet.

His goal at the start was getting new puppets but through the fight something made him change which is proven at the end since he let Chiyo's attack hit him.
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Old 2006-09-29, 02:45   Link #270
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@Sazelyt
I just re-read chapter 274 and it seems like what you‘ve said about Sasori being distracted may be narrowly possible, but now that I have admitted this it’s too difficult for me to continue arguing otherwise. Ganbatte miss rave, I quit.
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Old 2006-09-29, 03:02   Link #271
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss rave
It's not her opinion ok, it's kish telling you something. Chiyo wasn't all .. oh i never expected he would do that, she just stated what happened. Chiyo wanted to even bring Sasori back from being a puppet.

His goal at the start was getting new puppets but through the fight something made him change which is proven at the end since he let Chiyo's attack hit him.
It is Chiyo's opinion, which is for sure open to mistakes. No matter how much Kishi forces a character to say something, unless it is a first-hand information, especially in a situation like the one we are discussing, it is open to mistakes. And, I thought, Chiyo was planning to bring Sasori's parents back to life. I think she learned what Sasori has become at the beginning of that fight.

I don't think something powerful enough for a puppetified person, like Sasori, happened during that fight to change his way of things, especially when he is considered to have the advantage at the last minute.

Anyway, this discussion can go back and forth till eternity, with neither of us changing the opinions (Rurik knows this well, since we had a similar discussion on the same subject).
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Old 2006-09-29, 07:43   Link #272
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
It is Chiyo's opinion, which is for sure open to mistakes. No matter how much Kishi forces a character to say something, unless it is a first-hand information, especially in a situation like the one we are discussing, it is open to mistakes. And, I thought, Chiyo was planning to bring Sasori's parents back to life. I think she learned what Sasori has become at the beginning of that fight.
It's not open for mistakes. There is no Chiyo or Sasori opinion which matter more, Kish gave the readers the info that Sasori saw the last attack but chose not to re-act to it, the one that should of lost the fight is her but Sasori lost on purpose then even gave them information about the spy.

She developed the jutsu to bring Sasori back to life as she stated plus she had the puppet parents for years.

Quote:
I don't think something powerful enough for a puppetified person, like Sasori, happened during that fight to change his way of things, especially when he is considered to have the advantage at the last minute.
There was alot of the flashback where Sasori makes his parents hug him as puppets which is kinda symbolic to the way he died in their arms. He wanted them to hug him once more in a way.

Quote:
Anyway, this discussion can go back and forth till eternity, with neither of us changing the opinions (Rurik knows this well, since we had a similar discussion on the same subject).
^^'.

Last edited by Rachy; 2006-09-29 at 07:55.
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Old 2006-09-29, 07:45   Link #273
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Anyway, this discussion can go back and forth till eternity, with neither of us changing the opinions (Rurik knows this well, since we had a similar discussion on the same subject).

Hahahahahaha, I will never forget that one..after all it was the first time I debated against you.....
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Old 2006-09-29, 11:55   Link #274
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by miss rave
There was alot of the flashback where Sasori makes his parents hug him as puppets which is kinda symbolic to the way he died in their arms. He wanted them to hug him once more in a way.
This is like Oro wanting to kiss the hands of his sensei to show his respect, meaning I won't believe if I don't see it or I've been told the intention. You should give another try to the theories.
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Old 2006-09-30, 11:07   Link #275
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n
I regard it as Chiyo's demonic plan being successful.
It's very possible the reason Sasori didn't move whereas he had seen the attack and could have dodged was the sight of his parents coming to "hug" him but I don't think it was Chiyo's plan simply because she said she didn't know why he didn't move.
If she had done that in purpose she would have explained her cunning plan.
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Old 2006-09-30, 13:21   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Hunter
It's very possible the reason Sasori didn't move whereas he had seen the attack and could have dodged was the sight of his parents coming to "hug" him but I don't think it was Chiyo's plan simply because she said she didn't know why he didn't move. If she had done that in purpose she would have explained her cunning plan.
But Sasori said such feelings are pathetic, even when he was dying.
That's why this death is still confusing to me, and it wasn't explained.

This and the fact they killed nothing but a puppet make me think Sasori is still alive.
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Old 2006-09-30, 17:19   Link #277
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
It's very possible the reason Sasori didn't move whereas he had seen the attack and could have dodged was the sight of his parents coming to "hug" him but I don't think it was Chiyo's plan simply because she said she didn't know why he didn't move.
If she had done that in purpose she would have explained her cunning plan.
I base my opinion on Chiyo's sentence, before she joins team-kakashi to chase akatsuki, she pulls out 2 puppet scrolls and says something like "these two will be enough". Also we know that she's quite ruthless when she works on a mission, as she was the one to implant Shukaku in Gaara. She is the an old fashioned ninja, much more beliveable then the young ones, ninja being tools, etc... was her world. So i think she was planning on using those as psychological weapons, of course without having a clear plan of how to use those, but the basic idea was to use them that way. Those weren't primarily combat puppets, i mean they were created by Sasori at young age not for combat, they were not equipped with posion or any other deadly weapon like Kankuro's puppets which were also created by Sasori. So those 2 puppets were worthless in combat.
The only other reason for her to carry them would be that she wanted to show Sasori that she succeeded in her revival jutsu, and for exchange of her life she would summon Sasori's parent's in those puppets, and then Sasori becomes good person and joins the sand village again (she didn't know at the time that Sasori killed the kazekage). However i think the chance of that is 1%...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
But Sasori said such feelings are pathetic, even when he was dying.
That's why this death is still confusing to me, and it wasn't explained.

This and the fact they killed nothing but a puppet make me think Sasori is still alive.
His dream was to become a puppet, a perfect being in his eyes, without feeling and being eternal as the best of his art. He clearly said that he failed. And i'm sure he meant that both ways: one is that core on his puppet body which contained a part of his original body, he couldn't get rid of all of his old own. And the other one is his soul: he couldn't get rid of his feelings, and i think he realized that in the heat of that battle, seing his parents again, seing grandma Chiyo again, seing that self-sacrificing girl Sakura again... He realized that there was still some feeling in him, and he realized how pathetic is it now. So he concluded his life was a failure after all, he failed to make himself as he wanted to be, so he gave up his life. The core of Sasori was on his chest, just in the position of the heart, the heart is was always the symbol of human feelings, i think that was also a hint from Kishimoto.
I think Kishimoto didn't want to explain any further because he wanted everybody to think about it and draw his own conclusion, and that's why this is better then some stupid hollywood movie where every bit of the story is explained to us, thinking the audience is too stupid to make any conclusion on his own or that there must be only one conclusion.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2006-09-30 at 17:34.
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