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Old 2006-10-09, 17:44   Link #2101
yononaka
nani ni tatoemu
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
And by the way, thank you so much, FPB, for your "random tangent." Yet another proof of the greatness of this show.
Or, alternatively, yet another proof of the fans' own internal creativity at work?

BTW, while I'm not at a point yet where I could rework my entire thing about why I didn't like Simoun much, there's one point I'd like to make.

Quote:
But we built on a rich foundation that really was there, and that people who were put off by the surface of the piece were unable to see.
You've said similar things a number of times now, but I don't think it's very fair to those who don't have as high an opinion of the show as you do if you assume that they're "unable to see" something. Perhaps they saw it alright and simply took a different view? I mean obviously if we just go and treat "Simoun is great" as an axiom, we can arrive at the convenient conclusion that everyone (or at least everyone intelligent) who fails to see that must have failed because of some (surface level) obstacles. Which may or may not actually be the case.
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Old 2006-10-09, 22:16   Link #2102
FatPianoBoy
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Well, at least my emotional ramblings were well-recieved
Could you expand on your "work could be the sky in which to draw Ri Maajons" statement, Kaoru? Not sure I got what you meant.

Spoiler:


@Yononaka:
Despite my gushing fanboyism over Simoun, I'm not blind to its faults (the plot, for one). It's a character study more than anything, and it's certainly a well-done show for what it is. Also, I think that if you don't relate to Simoun on a personal level, you'll miss out on most of what makes it so enjoyable. It's not that you're not intelligent or that you don't 'get it;' different people relate to different things and on different levels.
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Old 2006-10-09, 22:31   Link #2103
Kaoru Chujo
Minase Inori
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
Or, alternatively, yet another proof of the fans' own internal creativity at work? BTW, while I'm not at a point yet where I could rework my entire thing about why I didn't like Simoun much, there's one point I'd like to make. You've said similar things a number of times now, but I don't think it's very fair to those who don't have as high an opinion of the show as you do if you assume that they're "unable to see" something. Perhaps they saw it alright and simply took a different view? I mean obviously if we just go and treat "Simoun is great" as an axiom, we can arrive at the convenient conclusion that everyone (or at least everyone intelligent) who fails to see that must have failed because of some (surface level) obstacles. Which may or may not actually be the case.
I do apologize for any offense given. Perhaps I should stop saying such things. But I am afraid that it is what I believe. It's not an assumption, it's an observation. I think the stuff is there. You don't. Fair enough. I'm just expressing my opinion.

And nothing you have said has convinced me to change it. How can I not see it as a failure of your perception if I believe something is there that you believe is not? You are certainly free to see my failures, and you have mentioned some before. I haven't made a point of going to the SP thread to express these things, I'm just here preaching to the choir, so to speak.

For many reasons I think this is a great show: the setting; the characters; the relationships; the way things are expressed, both verbally and visually; the music; the voice-acting; the organization of the script, the way it climaxes in the middle (like Act Three) and has a long denouement culminating in a tragic, I suppose you would say, conclusion that is open-ended and connects with real life.

The general indifference or hostility to Simoun therefore baffles me, so I look for explanations. I don't expect people who like action shows or moe shows to rush to this title, but I really do expect people who like Honey and Clover, for example, to appreciate it. That they don't requires an explanation, and the look, language, and odd social context are the only ones I have been able to come up with. That I am completely mistaken and just inventing everything in a rush of enthusiasm is certainly a logical possibility, but one that I have looked at and rejected, lol.

But it's not such an insulting comment, really. There are many types of shows that I just can't see clearly, like shows involving mecha or monsters or lots of fighting. Certain of them apparently do have a rich core, but the surface puts me off so much that I can't see what's beneath it. That observation of my own experience is what led me to think the inability of others to see what I do in Simoun may have a similar basis.

I do think your comment about my comment regarding what another poster said was actually unfair. I was commenting on how he related the ideas in the show to important parts of his own life. It is a fact that he did that. It elevated my opinion of him that he was willing to say what he did, and able to say it so well. And it elevated my opinion of the show that it could inspire him to do it.

Anyway, welcome. I always enjoy your making us think.

NOTE: I've finally managed to update the Secret Cast pages.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2006-10-09 at 22:54.
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Old 2006-10-10, 01:08   Link #2104
yononaka
nani ni tatoemu
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I do think your comment about my comment regarding what another poster said was actually unfair. I was commenting on how he related the ideas in the show to important parts of his own life. It is a fact that he did that. It elevated my opinion of him that he was willing to say what he did, and able to say it so well. And it elevated my opinion of the show that it could inspire him to do it.
I certainly wasn't in any way putting down the fact that he talked about his feelings and situation. [If you think I did, FPB, I'm sorry.] It just seemed to me that he was at a point where he was mostly just looking to vent. Simoun may have provided the outlet, but I doubt that can serve as "proof of the greatness of this show". If only things that are "great" could lead us to deep thoughts and realizations, the world wouldn't be half as interesting.

Quote:
I do apologize for any offense given. Perhaps I should stop saying such things. But I am afraid that it is what I believe. It's not an assumption, it's an observation. I think the stuff is there. You don't. Fair enough. I'm just expressing my opinion.

And nothing you have said has convinced me to change it. How can I not see it as a failure of your perception if I believe something is there that you believe is not? You are certainly free to see my failures, and you have mentioned some before. I haven't made a point of going to the SP thread to express these things, I'm just here preaching to the choir, so to speak.
Why does this have to be about me changing your mind? You're making it sound like I have a problem with you enjoying the show. I don't. I just don't enjoy the implication that dissenting opinions are caused by "failures of perception" rather than any number of other possible reasons. As FPB said: "Also, I think that if you don't relate to Simoun on a personal level, you'll miss out on most of what makes it so enjoyable. It's not that you're not intelligent or that you don't 'get it;' different people relate to different things and on different levels." (Although, technically, I think that even the concept of "missing out" is invalidated by the second sentence )

And it's not all about Simoun vs SP for me. Like I said before, I'm far from being a hardcore fan of SP. I just don't see why it's necessary to build up an elitist atmosphere around a show.

Quote:
The general indifference or hostility to Simoun therefore baffles me, so I look for explanations. I don't expect people who like action shows or moe shows to rush to this title, but I really do expect people who like Honey and Clover, for example, to appreciate it. That they don't requires an explanation, and the look, language, and odd social context are the only ones I have been able to come up with. That I am completely mistaken and just inventing everything in a rush of enthusiasm is certainly a logical possibility, but one that I have looked at and rejected, lol.
I think there is a whole lot of territory between you inventing everything and someone looking beyond the surface of Simoun and still not enjoying it as much as you do. And I think some of your fellow fans here have put forth additional ideas about why it (i.e. Simoun not being appreciated) might have happened.
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Old 2006-10-10, 05:05   Link #2105
warainagara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
I think there is a whole lot of territory between you inventing everything and someone looking beyond the surface of Simoun and still not enjoying it as much as you do. And I think some of your fellow fans here have put forth additional ideas about why it (i.e. Simoun not being appreciated) might have happened.
Well, I'm seriously wondering what kind of things you saw in Simoun and not enjoyed about it.
You mentioned about them before but it was no more than "Simoun pretends to have A,B and C," was it?

It must be ridiculous to assert that everyone should enjoy or think highly of the show as much as we do, as you said.
But I also see another self-centered absolutism in your strong implication like"Simoun has no more than I see and that's why it's unpopular but these guys here are inventing what they want to see."
You are not at all agreeing to FPB's comment you quoted as if you agreed to it, when it comes to Simoun.

If you agree to it, I urge you to allow us to think as we want whether you want to call our thoughts piece of shit or not.
Don't be sarcastic or overreact to small misconceptions by aggrandizing them as if they represent the general opinions here.
That's the only way you prove that you really sympathize with the idea in the comment.
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Last edited by warainagara; 2006-10-10 at 05:20.
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Old 2006-10-10, 06:56   Link #2106
oneplusme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warainagara View Post
If you agree to it, I urge you to allow us to think as we want whether you want to call our thoughts piece of shit or not.
Don't be sarcastic or overreact to small misconceptions by aggrandizing them as if they represent the general opinions here.
That's the only way you prove that you really sympathize with the idea in the comment.
Whoah, guys. Let's hold off on the overreactions, shall we?

As far as I've noticed, all yokononaka's said is that we (the devoted fans) tend naturally to read far more depth into things than others might. We see (or choose to see) depth where he(?) and others might not, because their interpretation is different. Perhaps I'm missing something, but why get upset at that?

In any case, could we all keep the name-calling to a minimum, please? (It hardly helps dispel the image of an insular fan clique, does it?)
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Old 2006-10-10, 07:31   Link #2107
yononaka
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warainagara: In line with your own suggestion to not overreact to small misconceptions by aggrandizing them, would you mind not putting words in my mouth and then accusing me based on that?

Edit: Although, as far as "seeing" in particular goes, I would like to think that we're all watching the same show, so in that sense yes indeed Simoun has no more than what I see. How we interpret what we see is another issue. Since you have somehow interpreted what I've said as implying that your thoughts are a piece of ****, I think it's obvious that multiple interpretations do exist and can be extreme... In case you're interested, dismissing someone elses thinking in that manner is entirely alien to me. It's simply not something I could do, even if I tried (and I'm not trying).

Last edited by yononaka; 2006-10-10 at 08:19.
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Old 2006-10-10, 08:21   Link #2108
fignae
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
If only things that are "great" could lead us to deep thoughts and realizations, the world wouldn't be half as interesting.
I can't help but be a little surprised by this comment. Isn't it the traditional function of art, to lead people to think about their lives? I hope I can suggest this without dipping into the general heat in the room.

If I may psychologize yononaka a little, it seems that what's happening is a fan who is obviously intelligent feeling insulted because of theories that those who cannot see a particular point of view are lacking in some way.

I think this also happens to abstract art.

One solution is to say: each to our own, and everyone's happy. However, because Simoun isn't abstract art, a more constructive and inclusive thing to do is simply to listen to one another and... wonder. Accept and appreciate the variety of perspectives available, I mean. Perhaps we will still disagree in the end, but I think the point is to have fun doing so. In this spirit, it's best to assume that everyone's intentions are good. Fans have the right to be enthusiastic, for one thing, and non-fans are naturally more rational, for another. It shows in our language.

And... perhaps I'm taking too many happy pills.

To drift vaguely back to the topic, I can't seem to access the radio show. Argh. Must. Try. Again.
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Old 2006-10-10, 12:18   Link #2109
FatPianoBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplusme View Post
As far as I've noticed, all yokononaka's said is that we (the devoted fans) tend naturally to read far more depth into things than others might. We see (or choose to see) depth where he(?) and others might not, because their interpretation is different. Perhaps I'm missing something, but why get upset at that?
To go along with my other comment, which yononaka seemed to completely miss the point of: I think that we don't see the depth because we're devoted fans, but that we're devoted fans because we see the depth.
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Old 2006-10-10, 12:43   Link #2110
warainagara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
warainagara: In line with your own suggestion to not overreact to small misconceptions by aggrandizing them, would you mind not putting words in my mouth and then accusing me based on that?
What I'm referring to by the words is "elitist atmosphere."
I've seen you are interpreting some comments from us on the basis of your hypothesis about the elitisism.
Some of us defended their positions about the intelligent thing, and I think their sayings are the average idea here, which I disagree to be called eliticism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
Edit: Although, as far as "seeing" in particular goes, I would like to think that we're all watching the same show, so in that sense yes indeed Simoun has no more than what I see. How we interpret what we see is another issue. Since you have somehow interpreted what I've said as implying that your thoughts are a piece of ****, I think it's obvious that multiple interpretations do exist and can be extreme... In case you're interested, dismissing someone elses thinking in that manner is entirely alien to me. It's simply not something I could do, even if I tried (and I'm not trying).
Well, the expression was deliberately chosen to refer to the extremely negative response one could evaluate our ideas with, not in the sense I accept your response in that way.
Personally, I don't understand such a high evaluation of Shuzumiya Haruhi's Yuuts and I know the show has some adamant fans who say things disagreeable to me.
But I don't mind their sayings primarily because my disliking the show naturally translate into that I don't go to a place dealing with SHnY nor read its reviews.
Another reason is that I understand some degree of fanatic attitude is a common thing that could happen to any show.
So for me, it's somewhat difficult to imagine someone frequenting this thread where Simoun's fans with similar ideas freely talk, although he or she doesn't seem to like the show and responding to a specific saying regularly that he or she wouldn't have to bear with a mere choice of not coming.
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Old 2006-10-10, 13:54   Link #2111
Matrim
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Quote:
I certainly wasn't in any way putting down the fact that he talked about his feelings and situation. [If you think I did, FPB, I'm sorry.] It just seemed to me that he was at a point where he was mostly just looking to vent. Simoun may have provided the outlet, but I doubt that can serve as "proof of the greatness of this show". If only things that are "great" could lead us to deep thoughts and realizations, the world wouldn't be half as interesting.
Nice logic but while trifles can and do lead people to deep thoughts (Newton's apple anyone?), one of the conventional views for art is that it is meant to do just that. Of course, it does not prove anything since you can hardly prove anything definitely when it's about art anyway. You are welcome to view FPB's post and the reaction to it as just another way for the fans to pat themselves on the back. We cannot provide you "Proof(tm) of the greatness of this show", nor you can provide "Proof that this show is overrated/bad". But leading people to deep thoughts is a point in favour of the fans of Simoun - you can discard this evidence as insufficient/arbitrary/non-existent/whatever but it can't be negative (unless you are arguing that art is nothing but entertainment which I doubt).

As for "seeing what's great"/"see the depth" or whatever you want to call it - seems to me that everyone is talking about roughly the same thing, yet a lot of misunderstandings have appeared. I think it is like this - you never know what you are going to like and even less what someone else is going to like. Certain books or films have been described to me as something that would be right up my alley by people whose tastes I trust, yet I ended up being disappointed by these works. Appreciation depends on too many factors including expectations, mindset at the time of watching, similar things read/seen recently, concentration of the viewer/reader and mainly all the subtle differences in taste. So thinking that people who like Honey and Clover should almost certainly like Simoun is a bit wrong, IMO but maybe I am saying that because I don't like Honey and Clover that much. And trying to guess why these people may not like it, while an interesting theoretical question can lead to some generalization which are bound to annoy certain people. In short - it's all relative and subjective, so how about we relax a bit and discuss the issues of Simoun's liking and disliking in a more fun and less logical way. Nobody is going to be convinced to switch sides anyway.

Man, I ended up writing such a moralising boring post...
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Old 2006-10-10, 16:34   Link #2112
Nei
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Spoiler for rant about yononaka:
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Old 2006-10-10, 16:52   Link #2113
Kaoru Chujo
Minase Inori
 
 
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Matrim's point about Honey & Clover is a good one. And about SHnY, which I can be almost as offensively in favor of as I am with Simoun. Taste varies, and it's impossible to securely predict who will like what. I'm probably just so frustrated by the fact that a show I think is one of the greatest ever has such a small viewership. And as I've said before, it makes me worry about my taste, so I get defensive. Sorry, all. (I think the apology is warranted, at least for prolonging the negative atmosphere.)

But although in general I'm certainly a cultural relativist, I can't honestly abandon my own judgment that Simoun has depths that some people just aren't seeing. It's normal. I myself can't see the greatness of Mushishi because the mushi, the protagonist, the episodic structure and most of the stories just don't engage me.

On a brighter note, I have recently been jumping around the episodes looking for screencaps and have been overwhelmed with emotion and admiration again and again. Mamiina on the deck, with Neviril and the Plumbum priestesses. Rodore cutting her hair. Her lullaby. Erif's cry. Limone smiling through the green haze of the Emerald. Neviril at the hearing. Onashia with Yun. The madness of the Temple One. Mamiina among the flowers. I even found it enlightening to watch without sound. I saw beautiful things I hadn't noticed before.
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characters/seiyuus: | Mahouka Koukou | Glasslip | Tokyo Ghoul | Sailor Moon Crystal | Locodol | Ao Haru Ride | Hanayamata | Aldnoah.Zero | Nozaki-kun | Magimoji Rurumo | Zankyou no Terror | Tokyo ESP | Rokujouma no Shinryakusha | Love Stage!! | Jinsei | Rail Wars | Blade Dance | Himegoto
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Old 2006-10-10, 19:23   Link #2114
DoReMiFaSo
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Although I haven't post much here, I have lurk on this thread for a long time.
There's one comment I'd like to make regarding the "unable to see" aspect of this show.

Simoun is a coming-of-age story. It depicts how people make choices in their lifes, especially when they are teenagers. Because of this, I think it would have a greater appeal to people who have passed their teenage years. Being a teenager, you have to make a lot of choices, and life is getting more and more complicated by the day. People who have faced these problems and gone passed them have a better chance of relating to the characters in Simoun, because they share similar experiences. It's like they are looking back to themselves when they are teenagers. They could appreciate more and "able to see more" (so to speak) in Simoun. For viewers who are younger, they haven't experience such things, it may be more difficult for them to see the beauty of Simoun.

For example, I really agree to Aeru's grandfather, when he said that as you grow up, you have less to choose from. I really can relate to it because I am experiencing the same thing. When you are a kid, you can dream to be a policeman, a doctor, a bus driver, or whatever. But as you grow up, you can only choose one. And after you choose it, it's like your path is set. You can't really go on another path, unless you make a lot of effort to do it.

Anyway, this is just my opinion, and I am not looking for a fight. It's just a theory that has been going on my mind. And I am not saying you are not a grown up if you don't enjoy Simoun, or you are old, so you enjoy Simoun. I am just saying that this may be one of the factors that people may not like Simoun as much. It may also be one of the reason why this show is not as popular. Of course, I also agree with previous posters saying that people have different tastes and different levels of perceiving things.
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Old 2006-10-11, 03:13   Link #2115
yononaka
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Eh. I think the severity of what I'm supposedly thinking, feeling and saying has been exaggerated enough times now that I'll have to "exonerate" myself somehow But not right now for lack of time. (Also on that topic: oneplusme, I failed to thank you before, but I definitely appreciated your words.)

As for why I continue coming here to talk about a show I supposedly don't like, it's because I'm interested in why I don't like Simoun much even though I like the vast majority of the things that have been related to it by the people here. By all accounts I should like this show. And for the record, I don't have a problem with anyone liking Simoun. Even the aspects of it that I don't "see".

BTW, I'm curious, is there a particular reason why people prefer to talk about me rather than to me? I don't mean to make a big deal of this, but the number of third-person references seems a little above average.
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Old 2006-10-12, 13:56   Link #2116
Kaoru Chujo
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I've received a note from someone in France whom I have been corresponding with about Simoun. She wanted me to thank everyone on AnimeSuki on behalf of French fans for having helped them appreciate the show. Here is a translation of part of her message:

...Simoun is now finished and following this anime is something I don't regret at all. I don't even regret having waited up every Monday for the raw (sometimes until 4 a.m.; impossible to sleep until at least having started the download).

I think I've never seen as beautiful an ending to an anime. It was so poetic that I had a feeling of nostalgia at the end of episode 26 (tears came to my eyes, but I kept myself from crying).

I'd like you thank all the people on the AnimeSuki forum who have helped French fans appreciate Simoun. Some of us follow the forum but do not post messages.... This was truly the anime of the season....
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characters/seiyuus: | Mahouka Koukou | Glasslip | Tokyo Ghoul | Sailor Moon Crystal | Locodol | Ao Haru Ride | Hanayamata | Aldnoah.Zero | Nozaki-kun | Magimoji Rurumo | Zankyou no Terror | Tokyo ESP | Rokujouma no Shinryakusha | Love Stage!! | Jinsei | Rail Wars | Blade Dance | Himegoto
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Old 2006-10-12, 14:08   Link #2117
FatPianoBoy
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Aww... I feel all gooey inside now. I'd post something in French for her, but my French is practically nonexistent
It's so wonderful how something as simple as a TV show (although a great one) can provide common ground for people all over the world who would never have reason to meet otherwise.
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Old 2006-10-12, 22:40   Link #2118
Simon
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Drama CD

November's Megami has some info on the upcoming drama CD in its Sybilla Fanclub column - can anyone help translate? From what I can make out, it seems to be a comedy about the characters finding work in something akin to RL. (Amazon have a colour thumbnail of the CD cover; Neviril has obviously taken to the OL look.)

And a couple of bits of DVD trivia. Compare the images on the official site to the actual covers - notice the difference? Also, I'm wondering if there's a slight encoding problem on V2. At the very end of the cast interview and promo video, just before it switches back to the menu, Media Player Classic 6.4.9.0 plays a nasty half-second buzzing sound. Then again VLC 0.8.5 doesn't do this, so maybe it's just exposing an MPC bug.

EDIT: Nearly forgot, I also have another request for translation help - the Megami manga is subtitled まじかる美勇伝 Majikaru Biyūden, literally "Magical Beauty-Courage-Legend". I think I understand what Biyūden means here, but I'm blowed if I can think up a natural-sounding English translation. Any suggestions?

Last edited by Simon; 2006-10-12 at 23:16.
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Old 2006-10-13, 18:20   Link #2119
Kaoru Chujo
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I've posted some general thoughts about Simoun in the hashihime blog. Just to make my point of view clear, I called the piece: "Simoun -- One of the Greatest Anime Ever Made." Feel free to comment here or there, if anything strikes you.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2006-10-14 at 16:27.
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Old 2006-10-13, 18:23   Link #2120
ujiuji
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brighton, UK.
Age: 51
A newbie's thoughts

Hello everyone, I've been reading some of the recent discussion and thought I'd add my views on why Simoun may put some people off.
As someone who has only recently started watching it I can give an impression of the first ten episodes that's not coloured by knowing what happens later.

During the first five episodes I felt inclined to drop Simoun several times; only the enthusiastic reports by people whose opinions I respect made me persist. Fortunately I started to enjoyed it consistently from episode six.. However I still think it has problems that stop me rating it as highly as most people here; and if I can see them others probably can too.

(Maybe stuff will happen later in the story that will nullify some of the criticisms I'm about to make - but if someone's really bugged by what seems bad in the early episodes are they going to keep watching?)

Spoiler for long rant:


Despite all that I do enjoy Simoun so it must have some good points as well! I did think it was time someone played devil's advocate, though.

Quick question, is the title "Simoun" an oblique reference to the pilot and writer Saint-Exupéry? Seems to fit in a number of ways.

Oh and a big thanks to the kind people who put the effort into subbing this show.
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