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Old 2006-10-22, 16:37   Link #21
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues View Post
Spoiler:
Well, it's rather uncertain.

Major's cybernetic body does not belong to her. Apart from her ghost, she is, aparently a property of the multi-national corporation that has created her, Megatech Body Co. Thus, she cannot legally quit Section 9 and go on doing what she wants to do.

That doesn't mean that she can't just escape into obscurity and evade puruit. She is an accomplished hacker and surely can erase her traces, if she wishes to do so.

As for the film, it's fairly nice for a self-contained story and I never took it for anything more. As usual with Kamiyama, it's generously peppered with visual and textual quotations from Shirow (the obvious last scene, for example), which I always found cute about Mr. Director.

It's not exactly earth-shattering, though, because, after all, it's just a SAC film. I think it neither attempted, not wished to be really groundbreaking, but rather it was just a continuation of the SAC story. Another episode from the lives of the Section 9, nothing more, nothing less. The ending is sufficienty open to allow the continuation of the SAC timeline, as Mitsuhisa Ishikawa has promised.
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Old 2006-10-22, 16:42   Link #22
Aidan
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It's clear that the Major has loads of money, it is shown in all the series, but it the extent of which never hit me until Solid State.
She is clearly not in Section 9 for the money, do they ever tell us why she is in it?
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Old 2006-10-22, 17:35   Link #23
Deacon Blues
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I don't know why we are using spoilers in a thread that shouldn't need them, so I'm posting this in the open...

It was my understanding that the Tachikoma's backup was used for the Uchikoma's in the end... so even if the Major used their backup in hers, the presence of their "ghost" is still rather strange...
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「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2006-10-22, 18:49   Link #24
glyph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Blues View Post
I don't know why we are using spoilers in a thread that shouldn't need them, so I'm posting this in the open...

It was my understanding that the Tachikoma's backup was used for the Uchikoma's in the end... so even if the Major used their backup in hers, the presence of their "ghost" is still rather strange...
Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Ah I see.

Spoiler:
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Ah I see.

Spoiler:
Spoiler for Kugutsu Mawashi theory and MAJOR SPOILERS!:
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Old 2006-10-22, 19:11   Link #25
Aidan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glyph View Post
Spoiler for Kugutsu Mawashi theory and MAJOR SPOILERS!:
Ehh she does give a WTF glance at the generic looking dude from what I could see. She might just not have realized that it was one of her cyber bodies, because of the whole subconscious/conscious mind thing. If what you say is true, he would have had no reason to let her see her face in the end. It would just have been, hey look it's me, got ya. Further more, when he reveals her face to her, he isn't speaking through Motoko for the rest to hear, because her mouth doesn't move. Tachikoma also doesn't let Section 9 know what they said to each other in the end.

Spoiler:

Last edited by Aidan; 2006-10-22 at 19:27.
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Old 2006-10-22, 19:31   Link #26
glyph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Ehh she does give a WTF glance at the generic looking dude from what I could see. She might just not have realized that it was one of her cyber bodies. If what you say is true, he would have had no reason to let her see her face in the end. It would just have been, hey look it's me, got ya.

Spoiler:
Spoiler:

Last edited by glyph; 2006-10-22 at 19:41.
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Old 2006-10-22, 19:58   Link #27
Aidan
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How do you than explain the time constraints. If the Major found him at the start of the movie, he couldn't have lived with her for two year, hence would not have had access to the generic cyber body at the major's place.

ps: I edited my previous post while you were respond to the original, with some more arguments to support my case.
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Old 2006-10-22, 20:21   Link #28
glyph
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Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
How do you than explain the time constraints. If the Major found him at the start of the movie, he couldn't have lived with her for two year, hence would not have had access to the generic cyber body at the major's place.

ps: I edited my previous post while you were respond to the original, with some more arguments to support my case.

Spoiler:


Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Last edited by glyph; 2006-10-22 at 21:05.
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Old 2006-10-22, 20:31   Link #29
Aidan
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If that's the case it would be a simple matter to switch places with the Major, let her die, assume her identity and carry on to fulfill his goals. As his most formidable opponent would than be dead, he would have been free to do what ever he wanted. I only know of two people who have been able to hack Batou and we all know that they are extremely skilled people. It is not something I can attribute to Kuze. Motives are also not Kuze like, he didn't care about Japan, but about refugees. If he would do anything it would be to help them and not the people of Japan.

I'm sorry glyph, but there is no real evidence to support that Kuze is alive.

This, which I believe only the major heard anyway, as you don't see her lips moving as it is said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by glyph View Post
Spoiler for Kugutsu Mawashi theory and MAJOR SPOILERS!:
does not hold with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by glyph View Post
Spoiler:
Because if you have complete control, you don't have to make up a lie, meaning why erase a memory when you already put the blame on something else.

ps: Another interesting note why I believe that no lie was told at the end. At the end we hear about the "Vanishing Mediator", another referents to one of Fredric Jameson's writings.

Last edited by Aidan; 2006-10-22 at 21:46.
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Old 2006-10-23, 01:33   Link #30
kujoe
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Hey, just wondering Aidan. You say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Spoiler:
And then you say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan
I'm sorry glyph, but there is no real evidence to support that Kuze is alive.
I haven't watched SSS yet, so I can't really offer much in the ongoing discussion, but aren't these comments somewhat contradicting each other?

For the sake of clarification, my other question is: is there really something in the movie that says (or hints) that Kuze is indeed alive, or are you guys just speculating?
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Old 2006-10-23, 05:22   Link #31
ZeusIrae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post



For the sake of clarification, my other question is: is there really something in the movie that says (or hints) that Kuze is indeed alive, or are you guys just speculating?
There's no evidence.In fact,I think the end of 2nd gig was clear,he's dead.There's not even a hint.

Spoiler:


For her reasons to leave:
She was probably shoked by the death of Kuze right under her nose.I would be very angry with the system if something like this happened.
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Old 2006-10-23, 05:25   Link #32
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sorry ,double post.
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Old 2006-10-23, 08:41   Link #33
Aidan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
I haven't watched SSS yet, so I can't really offer much in the ongoing discussion, but aren't these comments somewhat contradicting each other?
Take it like this, I thought he was found at the start of the movie, but there is no evident to support this. So I thought wrong. Time constraint would have it that my "guess" on what the Major found at the start of the movie was wrong.

Last edited by Aidan; 2006-10-23 at 08:56.
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Old 2006-10-23, 08:43   Link #34
glyph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeusIrae View Post
There's no evidence.In fact,I think the end of 2nd gig was clear,he's dead.There's not even a hint.
Quote:
That she found Kuze before SSS is pure speculation on my part, but there _is_ foreshadowing that he might have survived 2nd GiG.

Spoiler:


Quote:
Spoiler:

Spoiler:


[spoiler]
For her reasons to leave:
She was probably shoked by the death of Kuze right under her nose.I would be very angry with the system if something like this happened.
[spoiler]
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-10-23, 09:10   Link #35
Aidan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeusIrae View Post
Spoiler:
Don't forget Togusa. Just think who was the only person who had intimate knowledge about those people, who was the only person that knew them all.

I loved that scene between Batou, Togusa and his daughter, it was pretty intense. I would have loved it even more, if Batou would have done a Togusaaaaa!
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Old 2006-10-23, 09:31   Link #36
ZeusIrae
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Don't forget Togusa. Just think who was the only person who had intimate knowledge about those people, who was the only person that knew them all.
Kusanagi,I know.It' a very seductive interpretation but it's difficult to swallow for me.But it's the best one from a "philosophical" POV.I was completely shocked when I realized what it *could*mean.
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Old 2006-10-23, 14:23   Link #37
MrProphet
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So, if Kusanagi and *someone* (be it Kuze or some weird antropomorphised purely cyber SAC) are coexisting together, does that mean that the ending of SSS was a highly obfuscated equivalent to the ending of the original GITS manga?

Additionally, with that man's body leaving Motoko's body stash, did anyone feel like this is all very much alike to what happened in Man-Machine Interface?

Spoiler for MMI:
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Old 2006-10-23, 17:57   Link #38
Aidan
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Spoiler for MMI:
Yes, something like that only in this case to a somewhat lesser extent and reversed, plus the part of her consciousness she was unconscious of died in the end. Died, moved on, no longer part of her, you can make of it whatever you want. Her consciousness only split over two consciousnesses of which one was unconscious of the other, while the other was conscious of the collective consciousness they shared, but was unable to directly influence its counterpart. In simpler terms she was fighting herself and the better part of her died/moved to a next realm of consciousnes.(or whatever, it went towards the light) This is my interpretation of events.

This all stems from a spiritual concept that all humans share a common collective consciousness that we are unaware of, that collective consciousness is what religion believes to be god.

The interpretation I give is partly based on this spiritual concept of the collective consciousness. The way I see it is that the Majors consciousness has become so large that there is a coexistences of ego's within that one consciousness. These ego's manifest themselves when she takes controls of one of her different cyber bodies. She is consciously aware that she can split her consciousness over two cyber bodies, not just controlling them at the same time, but being them at the same time. Essentially being two egos/people at the same time, but being the same consciousness as she can control both. Yet part of her runs around in another cyber body, this is something she is unconscious of, she can't control, which points to another consciousness, which (consiousness 2) points out to her that they are both part of the same collective consciousness.

ps: my brain has started to hurt now.

Last edited by Aidan; 2006-10-23 at 22:56.
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Old 2006-10-24, 13:49   Link #39
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I must admit, my understanding of the deeper concepts of this film are superficial at best; until I rewatch the movie in depth, the best I could come up with was that the Puppet Master did contain a good part of Motoko's consciousness, gained somewhere along the line as she was existing on the net and manipulating multiple artificial bodies simultaneously. The body of the puppet master and its coming into motion without Motoko's direction... a case of AI self-realization? Supplemented by the consciousnesses of the collective seniority.

Thoughts and questions:

After Batou, why do you guys think Togusa was offered the job as section 9 leader? Of the original crew, he was the most junior in terms of experience and also has the disadvantage/advantage of a nearly completely biological body? Ishikawa sounds like a fitting candidate, though with that said, perhaps they recognized that Togusa had the potential, having a balanced stat-sheet of combat leader, investigator, and a human perspective.

On Kuze: My impression was that he has died, or is no longer in conscious individual existence. Motoko's departure may very well have been as she said; to pursue matters in a way that a law-bound organization like Section 9 cannot. As for her melancholy, may it not have been from the shock of realizing that the culprit she had been after was in fact manifested/spliced from her own subconscious? An unheard of phenomenon before that made her realize vast and unsolvable the growing networked-society is.

On final scene: Does Batou have romantic feelings for Motoko?
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Old 2006-10-24, 15:06   Link #40
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal-Reflector View Post
On final scene: Does Batou have romantic feelings for Motoko?
Not only does he have them, but in fact he had those feelings in every single incarnation of the GITS anime.
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