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Old 2006-10-23, 15:16   Link #201
ImClueless
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Agreed humans are not born "good" with any principles or moral judgment, but rather a product of their environment.

Were you an aid worker in areas like Rawanda or Uganda at the time?

Also soul-callous is a good word.. Must remember it.
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Old 2006-10-23, 15:18   Link #202
Majek
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Sooo i take it noone has seen ep 16 yet?

edit: oh wait it dones't air today.
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Old 2006-10-23, 15:24   Link #203
MarcusG
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Just saw episode 15. I thought it was disguisting and freaky. Espeically at the part when Rock was talking to one of the twins.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-10-23, 15:54   Link #204
ccardoso
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I have a feeling: these twins episode will be so cut when they come in the western world that they will last 10 mins at most...
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Old 2006-10-23, 16:28   Link #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusG View Post
Just saw episode 15. I thought it was disguisting and freaky. Espeically at the part when Rock was talking to one of the twins.

Spoiler:
Yeah I agree. TOO weird and twisted. And here I thought Black Lagoon was all about guns and explosions. I hope this was just a temporary screw up on the storyline...
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Old 2006-10-23, 16:31   Link #206
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusG View Post
I thought it was disguisting and freaky.
Those are compliments, not criticism.
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Old 2006-10-23, 16:42   Link #207
JaoJao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusG View Post
Just saw episode 15. I thought it was disguisting and freaky. Espeically at the part when Rock was talking to one of the twins.

Spoiler:
i want to know, was that a guy or a girl that pulled his/her pants down, and wtf did he/she show that made rock walk out like that?!
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Old 2006-10-23, 16:53   Link #208
JerseyDevil
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I love the way BL brought the Hansel-Gretel arc to a sadistically beautiful conclusion.

Although...I thought it was a bit weird for the Hatchet Twin to walk stupidly into such a trap, considering he's been able to last this long eluding all those bounty hunters. In the end, I guess he was naive like a child after all. The sniper part was groovy, though. I loved how they off-ed the BAR Twin, too...I was expecting her to die, and was surprised that she was about to make it out alive, then BLAM, right in the noggin. Nicely done.
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Old 2006-10-23, 17:21   Link #209
MarcusG
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Originally Posted by JaoJao View Post
i want to know, was that a guy or a girl that pulled his/her pants down, and wtf did he/she show that made rock walk out like that?!
JaoJao, That was the boy. Also remember that this kids were forced to do disturbing acts including child pornograghy and other unheard of things. Well, the boy dress up as a girl was trying to show Rock some prison love.
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Old 2006-10-23, 17:56   Link #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusG View Post
JaoJao, That was the boy. Also remember that this kids were forced to do disturbing acts including child pornograghy and other unheard of things. Well, the boy dress up as a girl was trying to show Rock some prison love.
ah... thanks for putting that in my head...

you're saying that the kids idea of a "reward" was to bend over and offer rock some fun the way he learned it? Gah, no wonder rock stormed out and slammed the door.
I would be bothered too when some cross dressing child offered to sit on my johnson...
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Old 2006-10-23, 17:57   Link #211
JaoJao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcusG View Post
JaoJao, That was the boy. Also remember that this kids were forced to do disturbing acts including child pornograghy and other unheard of things. Well, the boy dress up as a girl was trying to show Rock some prison love.
lol oh god, that is disturbing, he must be gay >.> so the siblings are both guys and they r gay? then how come 1 has 'breasts'? o_O
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Old 2006-10-23, 18:17   Link #212
Aidan
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Maybe they got boob jobs or use some wonder bra or one might be a XXY?
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Old 2006-10-23, 18:19   Link #213
kauldron26
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wow... just saw eps 15... i dont get how people do not feel any sympathy for the kids... i guess i am biased because from the inner city, but alot of kids who get into violence or join gangs dont have much of a choice... when all u know is violence day in and day out, if u dont have a parental figure to teach u differently u are bound to follow that path. Even moreso when society already portrays us Blacks as criminals and gangbangers. The only reason i was able to get out the hood is because my mother taught me right and disciplined me. So do i feel sorry for the twins?? yes. Did they deserve what they got in the end?? yes. Why?? because the world is a fucked up place with fucked up people.

In the great words of Tupac, That's just the way it is...
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Old 2006-10-23, 18:29   Link #214
chucky
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Originally Posted by MrProphet View Post
I don't know. Maybe because sometimes you can attempt to look beyond the exterior. Try that sometime.

I don't see why I am obligated to agree. I think I've stated my position clearly. If you have another opinion, discuss it in detail, if you wish to.

So far, all I see is an unsupported opinion with an appeal to the majority view. That just doesn't cut it as a valid rebuttal in my book.....

We were discussing my proposed notion that the writers were trying to present the twins in a much better light using compulsive visual imagery and the fact that some of the other ideas were not articulated as well because of this focus on whitewashing the twins.
I will show you the problem I have with your posts...

I read your original posts, and I dont think it tries to draw any conclusion or whitewash the teens, and there are enough evidences to say so: 1) there is no way the twins' deed can be pardonable in any circumstances with all the graphic protrayals of their massacre and torture. The initial setup itself have already defeated such a purpose if there are any. In the scene where Rock talking to the boy, prolly a lot of people may be guessing if the kid is hiding another axe -- the tension is there. 2) As far as the sympathy goes, why is there the line from Benny "the kid is beyond help; he will only keep murdering"? That line keeps reminding us the kid is always a killer no matter how much tears you wanna spare for him (not to mention that's the critical point that rock is sort of tormented by the kid's past). That part alone seems to me the author hasnt forgotten to bring out the fact the kid is still a murderer.

Not to mention there is another problem in what you are trying to say: on the one hand, you are complaining about "this episode was specifically constructed in such a manner as to force the viewer feel oh so sorry for the twins"; on the other you said "that 'reality' is too vague and uncertain". I know the "manner as to force the viewer to feel sorry for the twins" here is about the way the boy's quality was described on the boat in his escape, like cuteness and voices -- but if it means to be such a force, isnt a more complete rendition of the twins' past will be a lot more effective and not as half-baked? And the reason that no details of such a past were given, may be exactly that the author didnt try to exonerate the kid?

If it is the case, we can say the author is actually trying to give us two faces of the same kid -- a murderer and a victim at the same time. But exoneration of the murders? As the evidences I presented above show, the answer is prolly a "no". Put everything together and it looks like this: the murder done by him cannot refute the fact that he is a victim, but the victimhood he suffered cant invalidate the fact he is a murderer at the same time either. And yes there is a sense of moral ambiguity here if you ask me, two conflicting qualities that can easily sway the balance of moral judgment from one side to another, and back and forth.

Inevitably we then will have to come back to the view on morals in BL as reference. The worldview and the moral universe (funny term isnt?) in BL are actually very blatantly obvious. There are actually 2 arcs of story trying to draw the moral boundary for the characters in that particular ambience and from their points of view in the series (the nazi submarine one and the subsequent rock vs revi argument). It is pretty much what the author painfully tries, to signal the tune and what is gonna discuss. In short, moralization and also moral judgment in the series, as we are told, are sort of suspensed: the emotion is still there, but the characters will not do anything about it. If it is a tragedy, it is a tradegy and nothing more, period. No redemption, no salvation, and moral judgment plus sympathy are all out of the question. This idea is pretty vivid in the first season, and will be even more so in the Japan arc coming up. And yes, it is morally ambiguous as you said in your first post in a spoiler tag, and the author didnt (and wont) try to resolve it, and it is meant to be like that.

You are not obliged to like it, and I can understand there are reasons not to like such a pessimism and discrepancy. But if you try to criticize the author for not doing what you want because he says it loud at the outset he means to do something else in an opposite direction (and did it too), it will seem to me like complaining a microwave cannot dry your cloth.

You may wanna say: well when I watched this anime, and I've gotten a different idea. It is ok for people trying to interpret any text the way they like -- but the problem is, how far do you wanna go? If I read the Revelation in the Bible and I get the idea Gozillia is gonna land on New York in 2010, I think reflexively you may wanna send me to an asylum (and should too). Of cuz in our case here, it is 1 trillion miles away from being as bizarre, but the question still remains: you can look at the exterior as you want, but is it reasonable to go astrayed from the author's apparent intention?

I agree tyranny of majority cannot be automatically translated into correctness, but if a majority see things in the same light, maybe there is a modicum of truth?

And remember your choice of rhetoric before:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=178

In my opinion, you have framed the discussion beforehand -- look at the choice of words like "compulsory" -- in what way it is compulsory, if i may ask? This have already served to channel the discussion to a way, and that bugged me.

Quote:
PS: Here's a free advice. Don't try to get ad hominem on me. I don't take kindly to it. This is a discussion where we use reply with counterarguments to the actual points being raised. If you wish to insult me by claiming something I've never suggested, then you'll probably want to reconsider.
PS: Here's a free advice too: Don't try to threaten me. I will be 10X unforgiving than you are, I can gaurantee.

Oh wait a min, maybe I am the one started it first.... oh well, I cant care less like Revi And screw you
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Last edited by chucky; 2006-10-23 at 18:51.
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Old 2006-10-23, 18:32   Link #215
MarcusG
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Originally Posted by JaoJao View Post
lol oh god, that is disturbing, he must be gay >.> so the siblings are both guys and they r gay? then how come 1 has 'breasts'? o_O
No watch some of the earlier episodes. Their twins, one is a guy the other is a girl. Rember they both like to dress up as each other. Iam guessing the boy Balakia killed was the girl. Also you will notice that the boy talking to Balalakia sounds like a girl when she laying on ground and crying.
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Last edited by MarcusG; 2006-10-23 at 18:48.
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Old 2006-10-23, 18:59   Link #216
aohige
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Originally Posted by MarcusG View Post
No watch some of the earlier episodes. Their twins, one is a guy the other is a girl. Rember they both like to dress up as each other. Iam guessing the boy Balakia killed was the girl. Also you will notice that the boy talking to Balalakia sounds like a girl when she laying on ground and crying.
BTW, how do you know they weren't switched to begin with?
I'll settle the score for once in for all, so this doesn't loop again.

There is NO CLEAR ANSWER as to the genders of the twins.
It's been debated for years, but until the author gives answers, it's all just in your head.

I'll present the facts, and have you decide on it.

1. Identical twins are normally of the same sex, so in "reality" it's likely they are either both boys or both girls. However, opposite sex identical twins does happen sometimes, at EXTREME low probability. But this is anime/manga, so anything goes.
2. Both have short hair, and interchangable with wigs.
3. What Rock saw under the skirt, is speculated by some as a tortured genitile, perhaps what's left of a penis after the snuff films.
4. When the creator/author of Black Lagoon draws the twins on illustrations, he draws both with breasts, but only one with what seems to be a penis.
5. In volume 5 of the manga, under where he lists the weapons featured in BL, he adresses the twin girl with the BAR as "she". (彼女)
6. In the manga extra story, where the sex of characters of Black Lagoon are switched, (Rock was a large breasted OL, Bararaika was a stud, etc) the twins simply say "boy!" "girl!"

In other words, there's no concrete evidence to say which is who, and who is what.

So, let your imagination fly.
Whichever you like better, loli or shota
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Old 2006-10-23, 19:06   Link #217
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
3. What Rock saw under the skirt, is speculated by some as a tortured genitile, perhaps what's left of a penis after the snuff films.
that scene disturbed me very much >.< something that enough to make rock puke huh? must be shocking...
but imo i also think that the one killed by balalika was the girl...
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Old 2006-10-23, 19:07   Link #218
JaoJao
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lol wow thanks alot man
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Old 2006-10-23, 19:41   Link #219
Cal-Reflector
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Seen on anime, the events of this episode are presented even more powerfully than the manga (which is excellent, by the way).

All moral considerations aside, this is an episode that strikes deep and leaves a lasting impression, powerful and executed perfectly. All the characters and their lines, the Twins, Balalaika, and Rock, all come together terrifically.

An excellent episode, which forces the viewer to watch it unfold in fascinated horror, at the tragedy children turned killers and killed in turn, the weariness and resignation of victims and executioners, the anxiety and desperation of those who cling to the hope that the world is not without a shred of decency, even for the Twins.

Hats off to episode 15, I think, even with what I know is to come in the future plot, that this will be the most memorable episode of the series.

Edit: Some random musings

I would've really liked to know what sort of feelings Balalaika (let us assume that she has human feelings, for a moment) was experiencing when she had her head in her hands and muttered to Gretel to stop crying. Its safe to say that the entire episode with the Twins was one which made her most weary of her lifestyle: To have subordinates be mutilated by kids, then listen to the child cry as it bled to death, leg blown through and hand shot off, red blood and human tears.

Yes, that's just the way things is, and people like Dutch and Balalaika have accepted it as truth ("Just business" is an excellent way of coping with the cruleness of reality and operating in the world), but this affair with the Twins has made everyone reflect; ie, their rampage and death has to varying extent affected each character's callous, Rock the most and Revy the least.

I think I'll write a fanfic.
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Old 2006-10-23, 19:57   Link #220
firstian
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Anyone knows what's the name of the song the twins sang? It sounds almost like a hymn.
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