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Old 2006-10-23, 17:45   Link #221
Onizuka-GTO
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bah. those crazy scandinavians get all the fun. well...at leased we don't get criminally ripped off for booze....actually its the only things thats cheap around here...I wonder why....

*drowns his sorrows in alcohol before he goes mental over the high price of everythin in this bloody country*

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Old 2006-10-23, 19:27   Link #222
Ending
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Does this Finnish law extend after such a period of time?
Funny that you mentioned "one year after use", because that should be the replacement-time for electronic hardware (around here). IIRC, some computer components have two or even three years. Isn't that standard everywhere in EU?

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bah. those crazy scandinavians get all the fun.
How does a two week no-warranty, no-requirments return-right sound? That's right: if you buy something via mail (e.g: through a mail-catalog or online-shop), you have two weeks to decide do you want to keep the stuff or not. If not, money back, including the mail-costs and other related costs.
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Old 2006-10-23, 20:48   Link #223
Onizuka-GTO
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unfortunately, because we happen to speak English (because surprisingly this is England. shock/horror) the companies like to apply the same crappy options for us, but at twice the price. why...thank you!

We can only return mail goods, unless it is damaged during delivery, and if we sign it off, before checking it, we're screwed.

Right pain in the arse. Stupid president Tony.... (blames him for everything.)
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Old 2006-10-24, 12:55   Link #224
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Wow someone gave me negative rep and called me a troll real mature, I'm guessing it was wordplay. Just because I state that this is turning into a fanboy war and state my opinion that makes me a troll? No my opinion is my opinion, personally I am not a Sony nor nintendo fanboy I agree that they both make good games but I don't negative rep poeple just saying sony/nintendo is better. A bit of advice to whoever sent me the negative rep sending negitive rep with a stupid reason makes you look foolish, personally I don't care about the rep system but I want to see what kind of feedback I get from people.
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Old 2006-10-24, 13:30   Link #225
wsheit
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
I'm really tired of this ridiculous claim that adult games are needed to have games with meat, or games that are serious. It's as if they're trying to be cool by playing adult games.

Just drop this crap, you're not impressing anyone or making a good point.
I'm not trying to impress anyone...I'm just telling it as I see it. Adult themes are almost a necessity IMO for a great game. I place a great deal of value on story and music in videogames. You simply aren't going to get a deep, emotional story from a kid's game, and most of the time you won't get a great score either- especially if you like minor tonality like I do. Also, most family/kid games feature simpler controls than adult themed games. You will never see a family game with controls as complex as Devil May Cry 3.

So for reasons of aesthetics and control, complexity befitting an adult is almost always necessary for a great game.

One note about what I'm NOT saying. I'm not saying that games need to have sex and explicit violence all over the place. I don't like the GTA games, so that should explain my stance there pretty well. However, you simply aren't going to find much of the depth that I and many other gamers look for...if you only play Nintendo consoles (though I dearly love my DS).
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Old 2006-10-24, 15:56   Link #226
Benoit
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Adult themes are almost a necessity IMO for a great game.
Pure bullshit.
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You simply aren't going to get a deep, emotional story from a kid's game, and most of the time you won't get a great score either- especially if you like minor tonality like I do.
Ever considered that there are other types of games than kiddy and adult-themed ones?
Quote:
Also, most family/kid games feature simpler controls than adult themed games.
Even if that were true, how do simple controls mean it's an easy game? Try playing Ikaruga sometime. Simple controls, difficult game.
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You will never see a family game with controls as complex as Devil May Cry 3.
It's laughable that you think the theme of a game would dictate control complexity.
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Old 2006-10-24, 16:41   Link #227
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Originally Posted by Wordplay View Post
Why #01.
Why #02.
Why #03. (Almost like teletubbies, except that the baby-sun is a star.)
I would agree if it weren't for the fact that Super Mario Sunshine was a bitch at several parts throughout the game.
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Old 2006-10-24, 16:55   Link #228
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sadly I never beat that game (mario sunshine) due to the shitty camera
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Old 2006-10-24, 19:06   Link #229
Shinoto
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Originally Posted by Theclow View Post
Wow someone gave me negative rep and called me a troll real mature, I'm guessing it was wordplay. Just because I state that this is turning into a fanboy war and state my opinion that makes me a troll? No my opinion is my opinion, personally I am not a Sony nor nintendo fanboy I agree that they both make good games but I don't negative rep poeple just saying sony/nintendo is better. A bit of advice to whoever sent me the negative rep sending negitive rep with a stupid reason makes you look foolish, personally I don't care about the rep system but I want to see what kind of feedback I get from people.
You've Been Good. So Hopefully the Rep I just added makes up for it

...I got negative rep from here because someone couldnt read^^
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Old 2006-10-25, 07:16   Link #230
Onizuka-GTO
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lolol. Rep suxs. It's only for immature users, who can't think of a good comeback in a debate.

who cares? besides, i think i might neg you for being offtopic! MUWAHAAHA!
oh snap. so i'm I.

Anyway, if someone said, kids stuff, can't appeal to adults...well blow me. Why did those kiddy animation films, (spirited Away, Toy Story, Shrek) get awards by adults?

Could it be....that adults find them fun to watch as well?

Hell, I think some games developers have it right, that just because its for kids, doesn't mean they have to dumb it down. Kids know a good story when they play it. The same way some little kids like read a fricking heavy sci-fi book, because he likes it, and most importantly, UNDERSTANDS IT.

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Old 2006-10-25, 08:46   Link #231
Ending
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if it weren't for the fact that Super Mario Sunshine was a bitch at several parts
I know. The redeeming quality of the game. I didn't say it was a *bad* game; just that it's all sugar-pop that makes it look teletubby-friendly.

Quote:
I'm guessing it was wordplay.
Oy, are you going to blame me of kidnapping babies and dancing with the Devil too? If so, you might be better off making crucifixes and burning your friendly neighgbourhood-witches. Anyway, nagging should be kept in PMs, no?

Last edited by Ending; 2006-10-25 at 10:20.
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Old 2006-10-25, 09:44   Link #232
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Originally Posted by wsheit View Post
I'm not trying to impress anyone...I'm just telling it as I see it. Adult themes are almost a necessity IMO for a great game. I place a great deal of value on story and music in videogames. You simply aren't going to get a deep, emotional story from a kid's game, and most of the time you won't get a great score either- especially if you like minor tonality like I do. Also, most family/kid games feature simpler controls than adult themed games. You will never see a family game with controls as complex as Devil May Cry 3.

So for reasons of aesthetics and control, complexity befitting an adult is almost always necessary for a great game.

One note about what I'm NOT saying. I'm not saying that games need to have sex and explicit violence all over the place. I don't like the GTA games, so that should explain my stance there pretty well. However, you simply aren't going to find much of the depth that I and many other gamers look for...if you only play Nintendo consoles (though I dearly love my DS).
Man, am I glad that you're not designing video games. Control schemes for games should be as simple and as intuitive as possible. You don't want to bog the player down with overly complex input sequences, because they are a pain in the ass to learn. The only reason why a control scheme should be complex is because the gameplay warrants it. People in general, whether adult or child, like to do things as simply and easily as possible.

While you may think that story sells, it doesn't. Many of the most popular games throughout the history of videos have barely a lick of story to them or have stories that can easily be omitted due to gameplay. Tetris, Street Fighter, original Doom and Doom 2, Super Mario Bros. series, Dance Dance Revolution, the Sims, were all incredibly popular games and not a single one used story as a selling point. In fact, all of them did well because, surprise, surprise, they had excellent gameplay.

As for depth in games, I've logged more time playing Super Smash Bros. Melee in the last year than I have playing first person shooters in my lifetime, excluding Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. It is a much deeper game than people give it credit for and is a more appropriate game for reaching a wide audience than say a "mature" game like God of War. It has an easy to learn control scheme, it is fun to play, it is very deep, it is a game that can be played in any length of time, and it is a great party game. I'm 24, btw.

My sister, who is 26, used to love Final Fantasy games. Do you know what she plays now? The Sims, Mario Party, Dance Dance Revolution, and Katamari Damacy.
Oops, I guess somebody forgot to tell her that those games are for kids because they have little to no story and simple control schemes. For her, she doesn't have the time to sit and learn new battle systems or new control schemes. She likes games that are simple to learn and play and are fun.
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Old 2006-10-25, 11:12   Link #233
wsheit
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Pure bullshit.
Hence the "IMO". It's a rare kiddy game that I find amusing for more than an hour. Wildly popular but simple games like Lego Star Wars just don't draw me in. If it wasn't clear...though it was in English...I was stating an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Benoit
Ever considered that there are other types of games than kiddy and adult-themed ones?
Re-read the final paragraph of my last post. By adult-themed (your term), I really mean adult-targeted. Games like Mercury for the DS aren't going to appeal to little kids because they require patience, planning, and more skill than the average kid is graced with. Besides...you're dodging my point. If you're looking for deep story and epic scores, you aren't going to be very pleased with the bulk of Nintendo products.

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Originally Posted by Benoit
Even if that were true, how do simple controls mean it's an easy game? Try playing Ikaruga sometime. Simple controls, difficult game.
Arcade shooters bore the hell out of me. Replace hell with the dirtiest expletive you can think of. There are occasions where simple controls lead to complex situations in games, but occasions where this is well-executed are rare. And I know I'm not alone in liking action-oriented games that give gamers an arsenal of well-balanced moves that require an advanced control-set (and I'm not talking about fighting games). The Gamecube can't really offer much in that department, and I doubt that the Wii will, either.

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Originally Posted by Benoit
It's laughable that you think the theme of a game would dictate control complexity.
Hey- the first thing they teach you in middle school english (I assume that everybody on these boards is at least THAT old) is that you have to consider your audience. You can't put DMC controls in a kid's game. They'll get bored and move on to stuffing cheerios up their noses. Likewise, you can't put a complex, mature story in a kid's game. Age is possibly the most obvious mode through which game audiences are targeted....and developers consider both control and story in terms of audience. Thus, you find high correlations between complexity of control and maturity/depth of story.
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Old 2006-10-25, 12:26   Link #234
Radd
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wsheit, while your opinion of what makes a great game is subjective, some of the other points Benoit questioned where statements, not opinions, and many of them were, as Benoit pointed out, utterly untrue.

Control simplicity/complexity is not entirely dictated by the age group a game is trying to reach. Most people I know enjoy a wide variety of games, with varying degrees of complexity. A mature gamer who is looking for solid gameplay experience may find something inventive yet simple utterily irrisistable, but find themselves enthralled in a very complex game within the same day. The control scheme should fit the game. That is pretty much all there is to that line of thought.

If you truly believe younger gamers will not care for games with more complex controls, while older gamers will tire of simpler designs, you can only speak for yourself and perhaps a small minority. The running joke is that younger gamers often more easily pick up more complex games than older gamers unwilling to adapt. Pushing such opinions as if they were factual statements will only lose you credibility in debate.

Also, throughout your comments you seem vague on what exactly it is that you consider a "mature" game (which is a silly debate in itself, as many games rated "mature" are often quite juvenile, it's not that the games are rated for being mature, but that the ESRB feels that only "mature" people should be exposed to the games as younger people are often considered more impressionable).

RPGs are often considered to be the most comfortable home of "deep story and epic scores", yet you'll find such games are quite at home on Nintendo consoles. The DS has a rather nice library of them, including many classics. The lack of these on the Gamecube is more due to Nintendo's lacking sales compared to the PS2. RPGs are expensive to develope, so developers are more likely to put such expensive investment into the console with the most potential return. Another thing of note, RPGs often have very, very simple controls. Another argument vaporized in a puff of logic.

You know what might be a better approach? Go read 'Understanding Comics' by Scott McCloud some time. In the section where he laments the common fallacy that comics are unable to convey deep and "mature" stories. Replace comics with "Nintendo consoles" and books with "Sony consoles". As with that statement, you're making incorrect assumptions about content based on the container, and refusing to see the causality behind the current market situation. Of course, that is just one of many incorrect assertations you are making, so I'm not certain how helpful that will be.
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Old 2006-10-25, 12:58   Link #235
wsheit
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Originally Posted by Radd View Post
wsheit, while your opinion of what makes a great game is subjective, some of the other points Benoit questioned where statements, not opinions, and many of them were, as Benoit pointed out, utterly untrue.
We're gonna get into semantics here, but I'm really bored, so whateva...

Don't confuse my first post with my second. My first is almost entirely an explanation of my personal preferences while the second is a more objective discussion of why depth of control and story are correlated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
Control simplicity/complexity is not entirely dictated by the age group a game is trying to reach.
Sure, and I didn't deny this. I admitted that there are cases where simple controls result in addictive, complex gameplay. The puzzle genre is an example of this. Tetris and Lumines don't require many buttons, but I'll never stop playing them.

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Originally Posted by Radd
If you truly believe younger gamers will not care for games with more complex controls, while older gamers will tire of simpler designs, you can only speak for yourself and perhaps a small minority. The running joke is that younger gamers often more easily pick up more complex games than older gamers unwilling to adapt.
I'm aware of the joke- especially in relation to games like Halo. I've never, however, met an 8 year old that had the endurance to make it through Xenosaga or the dexterity to master DMC3. The majority of kid gamers- the ones that buy games based on Pixar movies and other train wrecks- don't have the intellectual maturity and dexterity to master tougher games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
Also, throughout your comments you seem vague on what exactly it is that you consider a "mature" game (which is a silly debate in itself, as many games rated "mature" are often quite juvenile, it's not that the games are rated for being mature, but that the ESRB feels that only "mature" people should be exposed to the games as younger people are often considered more impressionable).
I'm definitely not talking about ESRB ratings- that's for sure. But could a kid get much out of the story in MGS2, FFX, or Shadow of the Colossus? It isn't likely. When I speak of maturity....I'm talking more about an appreciation for dramatic nuance as well as an understanding of adult situations. I was trying to make that clear earlier, but I guess the words "mature" and "adult" have been linked so strongly to sex and violence that my efforts were in vain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
The DS has a rather nice library of them, including many classics.
Where? I can't think of a single decent RPG for the DS...at least, not one that has been released stateside.

Quote:
Another thing of note, RPGs often have very, very simple controls. Another argument vaporized in a puff of logic.
Again, the imprecision of my earlier arguments is leading to misunderstanding. DMC3 was a poor choice because it lead you to think I was talking purely about button presses. Included in my conception of complex controls are complex IN-GAME controls such as menus. Thus, I include most RPGs when I talk about games with complex controls.

Quote:
In the section where he laments the common fallacy that comics are unable to convey deep and "mature" stories. Replace comics with "Nintendo consoles" and books with "Sony consoles".
I don't think the two situations are analogous. I've read a great deal of manga and have an appreciation for its storytelling ability. That said, it's clearly very different from a novel as a storytelling medium. There ISN'T a great difference between Sony consoles and Nintendo consoles as storytelling mediums. HOWEVER, both the in-house and 3rd party support garnered by the two giants differs greatly. And there's simply no denying that the Gamecube directs developers towards kid-friendly projects. The situation would be analogous if books had mature content and comics only told stories about Mickey Mouse.
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Old 2006-10-25, 13:11   Link #236
Radd
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Well, we're still at an impasse then since you're arguments are still pretty vague and confusing. I mean, you say "don't confuse my first post and my second." I'm speaking entirely of the post Benoit last replied to.

I still disagree with a lot of the comments in this last post of yours. I've been playing videogames as long as I remember, I was still firmly in the "kid" category when playing games you seem to consider "mature", and I was definitely appreciating them back then, complex stories and all.

A part of the problem is that many of the basic issues of this argument seem to be rather vague on your part. What age group do you consider labled "kids"? What exactly is a "mature" game to you? (Yes, you've yet to put out a clear definition for this, when someone questions something, you introduce a new idea).
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Old 2006-10-25, 13:30   Link #237
wsheit
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Well, we're still at an impasse then since you're arguments are still pretty vague and confusing. I mean, you say "don't confuse my first post and my second." I'm speaking entirely of the post Benoit last replied to.
I made a post, Benoit replied with individual responses, then I responded to his responses. These responses are what I'm calling my second post- they were a more serious attempt at codifying the mature-complex connection.

Quote:
I still disagree with a lot of the comments in this last post of yours. I've been playing videogames as long as I remember, I was still firmly in the "kid" category when playing games you seem to consider "mature", and I was definitely appreciating them back then, complex stories and all.
It's been a while since you were a kid...I doubt there were games with the type of complexity that I'm referencing when you still had nap time. I mean...even the early FF's were very simplistic.

Quote:
A part of the problem is that many of the basic issues of this argument seem to be rather vague on your part. What age group do you consider labled "kids"?
I knew we'd get here eventually, and I was ignoring it intentionally because it is sticky. I'm talking under 10 for the most part, but it varies based on the individual. At some point for many gamers, they hit a point where more serious, less teletubby-like ( @ Wordplay) games become more attractive. Life doesn't usually have straight edges, so on occasion, ambiguous explanations can't be bettered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
What exactly is a "mature" game to you? (Yes, you've yet to put out a clear definition for this, when someone questions something, you introduce a new idea).
Ok...no need to get snarky- I'll try this again. I think the phrase "adult situations" may get at what I'm talking about. There were movies that my parents wouldn't let me see (and I wouldn't have enjoyed) not because they had people having sex or blowing the hell out of each other but simply because they contained chains of events that I would have understood neither on an intellectual level nor an emotional one. Game stories have reached a complexity where they often contain such situations or are evocative of emotions that kids haven't lived enough life to experience. And in general, kids don't want long narratives...they squirm. They want flashy and colorful. Nin-ten-do
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Old 2006-10-25, 13:51   Link #238
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What is all this about kiddy and mature games? If a game is good, you play it.

Mario, Sonic and the like have been around since I was a kid, and I've gone through each generation of gaming with games from these franchises, because they were good. I admit that some games are more enjoyable with a more "mature" theme, something like Metal Gear Solid (awesome game), but that's not to say that the "kiddy" games aren't just as enjoyable.

Look at Zelda on the Gamecube. I bet it's cel shaded graphics are regarded as kiddy, but I bet it's just as solid and addictive as any other recent Zelda game.

This is why the industry is in such a state, because people care more about graphics and "image" (how you appear, not image as in what is on screen) than the actual game. Maybe I'm cynical, but this only seems to have happened since Sony "made gaming cool", which no doubt introduced a whole wave of casual gamers (to some extent I suppose that's good, it's all about expanding the market after all).

I miss the good old days of Sega vs Nintendo rivalry and their mascots. Us arguing who was better as kids. There's none of that now, it's just Nintendo and two faceless corporations. It's known that I'm very old school and traditionalist, so perhaps I'm just simply moaning as a matter of course; but I do sometimes wonder where gaming is going.

Serious guys, enjoy a game for how it plays, not how it looks. I mean shit, I've actually been playing Super Mario Bros 3 today (originally a NES game, but I was playing the All Stars version on SNES).

Perhaps I'm too old for this...
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Old 2006-10-25, 13:54   Link #239
wsheit
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Look at Zelda on the Gamecube. I bet it's cel shaded graphics are regarded as kiddy, but I bet it's just as solid and addictive as any other recent Zelda game.
Graphics is only a very minor part of our debate. We're talking more about content and control.
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Old 2006-10-25, 14:19   Link #240
Zhemos
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To be honest none of the new consoles look that great.

I thought about buying a Wii just to play Twilight Princess, but I don't think I will, I bought a nintendo 64 just to play Ocarina of time. Pretty much a waste of money, zelda was the only game I ever bought for it, every other game just didn't appeal to me.

Right now, the xbox 360 is looking like it's gonna get a lot of awesome RPGs, the TGS showcased quite a few of them. Looks like they're pumping them out in an effort to up sales in Japan. But i'm kind of weary about buying an xbox 360. I work at EBgames and people come in alll the time with problems with their xbox screwing up, overheating, using their warranty to get a new one etc.

PS3? I doubt I'll be getting one unless the games are super awesome, or you'll be able to finance them, lol. :P
The games look almost identical to the xbox360 anyways, and almost all of the popular games will be out on both consoles, so why bother really? Blue ray? Seriously, what a joke.

Sigh...I like my PS2.
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