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Old 2006-10-24, 22:43   Link #561
Harukalover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
Anyone who puts Vorbis into MP4 should be shot.
Serious, I don't even know why it's an option.
There's no fun in not doing some type of hack or breaking the spec in some way is their?
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Old 2006-10-26, 14:53   Link #562
Shilar
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My problem with the MKV container

My main beef is that, while great for the computer to VIEW, it has a hard time converting. I've run into too many flavors of MKV (one anime has 3, and only the first 4 episodes convert somewhat well), and there's no one way to convert them all to play in an iRiver (Divx/Xvid compatible).
I converted the 1st one (h.264/AAC) using several encoders, and finally got it to work, and on the other 3 I could convert (Xvid/AAC), then Ep 5 wouldn't convert at all. MP4 (the container, not the codec) is very easy to convert, burn, view, etc, but MKV is too varied (also note the h.264/AAC episode looks and sounds the same in Xvid, and is 2mb smaller . The quality's good, the compression's good, the user-friendliness isn't (maybe coder-friendly, but not user-friendly).
If anyone has a good suggestion for a one-step converter (not a tutorial, as they didn't even help in this case), let me know, til then, try sticking with other containers/codecs?
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Old 2006-10-26, 15:11   Link #563
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Why not ask that question in Tech Support forum? This is a thread to discuss about the codec, not a thread to ask how to convert things realted to h.264.
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Old 2006-10-26, 17:36   Link #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
If anyone has a good suggestion for a one-step converter (not a tutorial, as they didn't even help in this case), let me know
Hmmm... I can think of a way to transcode most mkv's in 1-2 steps (depends if there's sotfsubs or multiple audio/vido streams), but I doubt ease of transcoding is something most encoders consider; unless they're attempting to make it more difficult.

Quote:
till then, try sticking with other containers/codecs?
Request denied.
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Old 2006-10-26, 18:19   Link #565
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@Shilar
Your problem is simple. The oneclick re-encoding solutions don't work for you. Go yell at the people who make these applications for the newbie masses and ask them to add more support for Matroska.

Otherwise someone with just a small bit of experience using things like AviSynth could easily re-encode just about any Matroska file.

Ignorance on your part is not a reason to switch containers.
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Old 2006-10-27, 14:01   Link #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
@Shilar
Your problem is simple. The oneclick re-encoding solutions don't work for you. Go yell at the people who make these applications for the newbie masses and ask them to add more support for Matroska.

Otherwise someone with just a small bit of experience using things like AviSynth could easily re-encode just about any Matroska file.

Ignorance on your part is not a reason to switch containers.
They don't work cause the MKV containers change formats more often then I change shirts. I've tried the "geek" solutions (which a lot of the programs just plain crash), and tried the one-clicks (support the original MKV, not the off-shoots that each fansub group is making, nor embedding Aegis subs). Even tried hard-subbing the Aegis file (same result as the "geek" solutions). MP4? No problem, easily do it, even in QuickTime!

The reason behind this is simple: Most fansub anime cons (AnimeFest is a good example) rely on a simple premise that if they can make a DVD or Divx/Xvid out of the files they get, they show them. One thing I've not seen there is anything put in MKV, thereby never gets shown to anyone. That leaves a smaller group that "mistakes" upon it. Basically, why support a container that has a hard time being converted by all but the ones who love the "high quality?" (As I said, Divx/Xvid is really good if you do it right). I just ask that people be wary of MKV, lest they solidify a format around the container.
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Old 2006-10-27, 14:07   Link #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFire View Post
Hmmm... I can think of a way to transcode most mkv's in 1-2 steps (depends if there's sotfsubs or multiple audio/vido streams), but I doubt ease of transcoding is something most encoders consider; unless they're attempting to make it more difficult.
And in turn that can just hurt the encoder's goal: getting an anime company to take the anime into a license. Look at the previous post for an explanation.
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Old 2006-10-27, 14:23   Link #568
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thats not the goal of every encoder
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Old 2006-10-27, 15:02   Link #569
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(This might be getting a bit off-topic?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
They don't work cause the MKV containers change formats more often then I change shirts.
Please explain what you mean by "change formats". The Matroska format has been standardised for ages now. What might change is what streams the encoder puts into the file and in what order, but any decent application should be able to handle various different formats.

Now, what might be good would be an actual DirectShow based re-encoding solution which can also handle VFR, perhaps in various ways. (It would require an additional DShow filter to perform the transformations.) Either, output could be a "120 fps" AVI, simply decimated to 24 or maybe even *shudder* telecined. Why a DShow based solution? Because all the decoders and subtitle filters are already available. Actually, using good old GraphEdit it's already possible, as long as input is constant frame rate. Someone just need to write the frame rate conversion filter(s).
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Old 2006-10-27, 17:28   Link #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
And in turn that can just hurt the encoder's goal: getting an anime company to take the anime into a license.
I would like to begin by apologizing, if I have, in any way, led anyone to believe that was remotely my goal. I would also like to point out (again) that is not the goal of all/most encoders.

Even if it was the goal, if using mkv is enough of a brick wall to stop someone from transcoding a release (for a con or otherwise), they probably wouldn't have done a great job anyway; It may further damage this lucrative "goal" you speak of.

I believe TheFluff has experience transcoding anime for cons; I don't recall him having any issues with mkv (except for vlc's borked mkv streaming).
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Old 2006-10-27, 17:49   Link #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
(This might be getting a bit off-topic?)

Please explain what you mean by "change formats". The Matroska format has been standardised for ages now. What might change is what streams the encoder puts into the file and in what order, but any decent application should be able to handle various different formats.

Now, what might be good would be an actual DirectShow based re-encoding solution which can also handle VFR, perhaps in various ways. (It would require an additional DShow filter to perform the transformations.) Either, output could be a "120 fps" AVI, simply decimated to 24 or maybe even *shudder* telecined. Why a DShow based solution? Because all the decoders and subtitle filters are already available. Actually, using good old GraphEdit it's already possible, as long as input is constant frame rate. Someone just need to write the frame rate conversion filter(s).

Such a solution already exists... it's called "DirectShowSource" in avisynth. You can have it output at 120 fps, and then encode with xvid with the setting to include nvops... The problem is that most people don't know how to use it right, since it's not a GUI. It'll do a pretty decent job converting vfr mkv into constant frame rate.

P.S. I've been doing this for a little while now for raws of hataraki-man (which are nearly all 23.976, but not quite). The process I use it horribly complicated, but it works very well:
1. Extract video stream+timecode file
2. Use tc2cfr to create a 120 fps avi. (or whatever is the LCM of the constituent hybrid framerates)
3. use tdecimate to decimate down to 23.976 the 120 fps avi.

you might be able to also use DirectShowSource with a convertfps=true and fps=120 and do the same thing, but it's less accurate, in my opinion, and might introduce some extra blended frames.

What this does is produce a properly synched 23.976 file, with a few very short 29.97 sections decimated using hybrid=1, starting from a vfr mkv.

Of course, if the source is truly variable frame rate, this will still look crappy, but it only 120 frames of the show are at 29.97, it's probably worth the trouble to convert it to CFR from the start.
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Old 2006-10-27, 19:30   Link #572
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The point of having a clean DShow based transcoding tool would be to avoid AviSynth and multiple separate tools. You'd also avoid any temp files at all, since it'd go directly from MKV to AVI, or whatever.
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Old 2006-10-27, 21:12   Link #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
They don't work cause the MKV containers change formats more often then I change shirts.
Excuse me but WTF are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
've tried the "geek" solutions (which a lot of the programs just plain crash)
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
and tried the one-clicks (support the original MKV, not the off-shoots that each fansub group is making
Original MKV? Off-shoots? What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
nor embedding Aegis subs). Even tried hard-subbing the Aegis file (same result as the "geek" solutions). MP4? No problem, easily do it, even in QuickTime!
The sense is unmaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
The reason behind this is simple: Most fansub anime cons (AnimeFest is a good example) rely on a simple premise that if they can make a DVD or Divx/Xvid out of the files they get, they show them. One thing I've not seen there is anything put in MKV, thereby never gets shown to anyone. That leaves a smaller group that "mistakes" upon it.
I can't speak for any other cons, but on the few occasions that we've used fansubs straight off (as opposed to R2 DVD's with fansub subtitles) on UppCon (Sweden's largest anime convention; 1700 visitors last time around - I'm responsible for the anime screening section), we've used MKV more than once, without problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
Basically, why support a container that has a hard time being converted by all but the ones who love the "high quality?" (As I said, Divx/Xvid is really good if you do it right).
And I guess this finally proves that you have NO CLUES WHATSOEVER when it comes to MKV. DivX and Xvid are CODECS, not containers, and both can be (and frequently are) contained in MKV.
Also, transcoding stuff from MKV is really freaking simple for people with more than two braincells and the ability to follow written instructions. Use mkvextract to get any softsubs, then use directshowsource with convertfps=true, and BAM! Instant hardsubbed AVI, or whatever you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
I just ask that people be wary of MKV, lest they solidify a format around the container.
I just ask that people be wary of YOU, lest they start to believe your nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
And in turn that can just hurt the encoder's goal: getting an anime company to take the anime into a license.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's definitely not my goal. Quite the opposite, actually, and why the heck should I care about US licenses anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy
you might be able to also use DirectShowSource with a convertfps=true and fps=120 and do the same thing, but it's less accurate, in my opinion, and might introduce some extra blended frames.
That should not be possible; AFAIK DSS() with convertfps only duplicates or removes frames, it never blends. Also, (I assume you already know this but just was a bit sloppy with the rounding in the post) it's 119.88 fps, not 120.00.
But if you're going CFR anyway, why bother about a few extra blended frames? It's not like it will look perfect anyway...
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Old 2006-10-27, 21:23   Link #574
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Yes, unless you specify blend=true, frames are simply duplicated or dropped.
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Old 2006-10-27, 22:24   Link #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
That should not be possible; AFAIK DSS() with convertfps only duplicates or removes frames, it never blends. Also, (I assume you already know this but just was a bit sloppy with the rounding in the post) it's 119.88 fps, not 120.00.
But if you're going CFR anyway, why bother about a few extra blended frames? It's not like it will look perfect anyway...
Hmm, I thought that DSS with convertfps would do simple blending for non-integer decimation, but frankly I haven't tested it. And it really should be 120000/1001, 30000/1001,24000/1001, so there .

Edit: Aha, checkers explains. Well, I thought it did it by default, but I guess I was wrong.
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Old 2006-10-28, 03:07   Link #576
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Well to reencode MKV or MP4 files that contain VFR video streams or even CFR you can just use this AviSynth command on a simple script and open this AviSynth Script on VirtualDub that everything will run fine.

MKV:
DirectShowSource("C:\video.mkv", fps=23.976, convertfps=true)

MP4:
DirectShowSource("C:\video.mp4", fps=23.976, convertfps=true)

You need to put on the script the exact FPS that this MKV or MP4 file have you can identify this FPS information using the Software MediaInfo.
http://www.free-codecs.com/Media_Info_download.htm

Convertfps=true is used to convert VFR stream to CFR stream.

This script will open fine on VirtualDub and you can reencode the video and audio stream on VirtualDub without any problems. (Just write the AviSynth script correctly)

You used Convertfps=true so now the AVI file with XviD/MP3 that you are going to encode on VirtualDub will have Constant Framerate.

Just some maybe useless info
When I reencode Raw Anime files with 120 FPS I use this simple command to convert from 120 FPS to 23.976 FPS.
TDecimate(cycleR=4)

Simple example:
AviSource("C:\video.avi")
TDecimate(cycleR=4)

Open this on VirtualDub and the file will have now 23.976 FPS.

Encoding subtitle on video surface is easy you just need to use this command and you need the file VSFilter.dll that you can find on your computer after installing VobSub or DirectVobSub.

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\directvobsub\VSFilter.dll")
TextSub ("C:\subtitle.ass")

This way your subtitle will be encoded as HardSub.

I like to use SoftSubs so I mux my SSA or ASS subtitle with the MKV container and put inside the MKV file the subtitle fonts that I used and everything will run fine on the other users computers.

Reencoding MKV and MP4 files is very easy using AviSynth with VirtualDub.

AviSynth For The Win
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Old 2006-10-29, 15:41   Link #577
Shilar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Excuse me but WTF are you talking about?
Well, lessee.... FIRST MKV I ran into was h.264/AAC/ASS, second was Xvid/MP3/ASS, third was Divx/AAC/ASS.... need I say more?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG
SHOW ME AN EASY WAY TO DO IT RIGHT ON A COMPUTER THAT HATES MOST OF THE ANCIENT, NON-MKV NATIVE CONVERTERS THEY MENTION FOR CONVERTING!

Oye, I can do caps too, shows how idiotic it looks huh? Now, I am doing it right for installing, but I have major install problems, or the program doesn't like ASS, or the Kanji does not register, et al.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
Original MKV? Off-shoots? What?
See first answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
The sense is unmaking
Speak goodly in English, yes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I can't speak for any other cons, but on the few occasions that we've used fansubs straight off (as opposed to R2 DVD's with fansub subtitles) on UppCon (Sweden's largest anime convention; 1700 visitors last time around - I'm responsible for the anime screening section), we've used MKV more than once, without problems.
Well, I've never seen it at A-kon (via computer from friends), nor Animefest, in any of the rooms they show anime. MP4's shown alot, but not MKV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
And I guess this finally proves that you have NO CLUES WHATSOEVER when it comes to MKV. DivX and Xvid are CODECS, not containers, and both can be (and frequently are) contained in MKV.
Also, transcoding stuff from MKV is really freaking simple for people with more than two braincells and the ability to follow written instructions. Use mkvextract to get any softsubs, then use directshowsource with convertfps=true, and BAM! Instant hardsubbed AVI, or whatever you want.
DID I SAY MKV WAS A #%&*#^&&*#^$*(#& CODEC, OR DIVX/XVID WAS A %#$%#&(*&% CONTAINER?! Ahem, First crashed, second lost all Kanji.... I did try that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I just ask that people be wary of YOU, lest they start to believe your nonsense.
Hey I'm just voicing an opinion. If you feel offended, then I'm sorry. First you told me that MKV has always been standardized, but when I extract MKV's, I easily see otherwise. If they were standardized, we would have a program that even newbies can use to play them on iPods, without having to rant on boards that return fire with clueless, ego-busting, inept flames on "oh it's sooo clear/You suck for changing it to AVI/etc." Total Video Converter, which I bought for FLV converting says MKV support is from the older ones, not the other flavors I've seen (didn't work on any of the MKV's I have, no subs).


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's definitely not my goal. Quite the opposite, actually, and why the heck should I care about US licenses anyway?
Then no wonder it's going downhill at Animefest... They resorted to using commercial US Anime for half the room...

Last edited by Shilar; 2006-10-29 at 16:02.
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Old 2006-10-29, 16:43   Link #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
Well, lessee.... FIRST MKV I ran into was h.264/AAC/ASS, second was Xvid/MP3/ASS, third was Divx/AAC/ASS.... need I say more?
All perfectly to spec.
Quote:
SHOW ME AN EASY WAY TO DO IT RIGHT ON A COMPUTER THAT HATES MOST OF THE ANCIENT, NON-MKV NATIVE CONVERTERS THEY MENTION FOR CONVERTING!
See Kurth's post above yours. No reason why that shouldn't work for you.
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Old 2006-10-29, 16:53   Link #579
Shilar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emptyeighty View Post
All perfectly to spec.

See Kurth's post above yours. No reason why that shouldn't work for you.
What spec though? I had th h.264 codec when I tried the first mkv, and it didn't work til I got rid of the codec to download yet another h.264 codec. AVIsynth crashes in install. I have the Admin rights, and yet it won't install cause it says I don't. Tell ya what, I aim to make it easier to please. Anyone willing to recommend a DVD encoder for AVI and Aegis subs?
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Old 2006-10-29, 16:58   Link #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilar View Post
What spec though?
Now that's a difficult one.. the Matroska spec perhaps?
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Tell ya what, I aim to make it easier to please.
If you want everything served on a golden plate then good luck to you.
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