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Old 2006-10-26, 15:02   Link #61
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while i say killed, i meant murdered intentionnaly in fact
We are told everywhere that he commited suicide.


Tsumihoroboshi-hen:
the mysterious death of the village clinic's head doctor

From here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=133
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Old 2006-10-26, 15:05   Link #62
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oh yeah, thanks !

hummm let's see... what about the same situation as tomitake?
i mean, irie discovered everything (takano betrayal, etc) ? he sure would be stomped under the huge SDF/yamainu rush XD

*headache* this is really filled with small annoying plotholes >_>
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Old 2006-10-26, 17:06   Link #63
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actually as we can see in the epilogue (I don't remember if it's a TIP or piece), in Meakashi-hen SOME people still went mad because Rika died (in Meakashi-hen there is no disaster). I believe these people went mad indeed because of the spiritual/trauma from loosing their miko, which is in the lines of aliensporebomb theory. However, as much as people love their miko, I don't think that they would ALL go INSANELLY MAD because of that unless there is indeed some pathogen.

So I think that since Takano wanted to make it to be believed (her own theories, her grandfather theories, her research,etc) she wanted for Rika's death to be as much horrible (watanagush'ed is the worst in the religion point of view) and than trigger the disaster so everybody would agree like "oh, Poor Takano is dead, but she was right! she was a genious!).

If Rika is not found in due time (48h) and/or not killed in such manner, than this effect would be hugelly reduced, thus dismantling her need to force the disaster. There is even a chance that the government didn't really believe and wanted to go with plan 34 (disaster) and actually were the yamainu who actually triggered the disaster.

as for:

Quote:
Why the three gonsake head's (including Rika) death doesn't cause such a big stress?
That seams obvious to me. They are important because people FEAR them in a social way, not religious way. In fact, a lot of people would probably be relieved if they died, meaning their so called "attrocities" and "evilness" (which we know are only a facade) would stop. Thus, the death of Gosanke head's wouldn't trigger madness, actually happiness xD~ (except obviously cute Rika who is loved and don't have an evil fame about her)

-- edit --

I'm pretty sure Irie was killed off by Takano for the same (whatever) reason she killed Tomitake. They both were well versed on the parasite stuff and probably by the time already realised she was wrong about the queen theory, so they would certainly be on the way and try to prevent her from triggering the great disaster. So for her to go with her plan to watanagushi Rika and trigger the disaster, she had to "erase" everyone who would prove her theories wrong even after her "death" - after all, she want to be remembered as a God (genious, etc..)

Quote:
We are told everywhere that he commited suicide.
and before we got the pieces translated we even believed other stuff because they were told everywhere ... better wait for the whole pieces be translated to really say that with conviction

Last edited by Caiobrz; 2006-10-26 at 17:10. Reason: you guys post too fast lol
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Old 2006-10-27, 13:01   Link #64
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Quote:
We are told everywhere that he commited suicide.
and before we got the pieces translated we even believed other stuff because they were told everywhere ... better wait for the whole pieces be translated to really say that with conviction
I only told about the fact he was dead not about why did he die.

Quote:
I don't think that they would ALL go INSANELLY MAD because of that unless there is indeed some pathogen.
Do you think that the whole "Hinamizawa syndrome" not only "queen theory" is a fake?
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Old 2006-10-27, 15:26   Link #65
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Do you think that the whole "Hinamizawa syndrome" not only "queen theory" is a fake?
No, the syndrome is real, or else neither Irie nor Tomitake would help out Takano since the sole reason would be to waste money and dissect people. We clearly see that Irie discovered the patogens after the first dissection, even being able to create a vaccine after researching Rika (take a look at latest pieces that Sushi-Y posted, it's clear Satoko was saved by such vaccine).

But the queen theory is certainly false. Not fake, Takano might even trust it's real, but there is only one way to prove it right? >D
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Old 2006-10-27, 15:53   Link #66
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Upon further thought, I do believe the syndrome is real - remember how
certain events caused people to respond much more intensely than they
would normally? And the more extreme the event the more extreme the
mental response? It all leads back to Rika again - if she dies, they go
off the deep end for obvious reasons.
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Old 2006-10-27, 16:12   Link #67
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the fakeness of the syndrome does not make ANY sense. It would mean that either Irie, Tomitake and even Takano are being lied at, but they are also faking it. Read the latest pieces that Sushi-Y posted, does it seam in any way that Irie is faking the existence of the pathogen and the Syndrome? Why would he lie about that? he have a lot of morals going on, and Rika (which knows it all) pushes him to use the vaccine, further proving that (A) there is a syndrome and (B) there is a vaccine. Some 3 or 4 pieces would not make any sense if the syndrome itself was fake.

The queen theory, however, is just a theory so far, and the fact that nobody goes insane if Rika dies in other scenarios other than watanagashied proves it's wrong. Thus, people with the syndrome need to be near the pathogen source, but if the pathogen source is destroyed, the syndrome is destroyed, not the other way around. One might say that the ultimate cure is to kill Rika, but since we don't want that, it's easier to let Irie work on a vaccine/cure.
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Old 2006-10-29, 21:12   Link #68
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well well the latest piece Sushi-Y posted kind of explains everything about Satoko, and show us there is indeed a drug that induces L5 and thus explains Tomitake eventual death.

Pieces are falling together >D
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Old 2006-10-30, 08:48   Link #69
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No, the syndrome is real,
Quote:
I do believe the syndrome is real
Quote:
the fakeness of the syndrome does not make ANY sense.
Ok, ok nobody says it's a fake. I thought Caiobrz does but I was wrong.
----------------------------------

Idea:

We do know that Takano dies during Great Hinamizawa Disaster (GHD). So, she dies in the village. There's no way she could order to spread the gas while she was there (unless she wanted to commit suicide). So the SDF doesn't need any command from Takano for that.

What can we get from these:

1) Something really happens with the village.
2) Takano did something stupid (like eating someone ) because before she died everything was going according to her plans.
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Old 2006-10-30, 09:14   Link #70
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The disaster is in fact the "public" announcement of a accidental and natural genocide.
there is a high chance that takano let loose the SDF to kill every hinamizawa people, and use the volcano of the Onigafuchi Marsh thing as an excuse too. (in fact, there weren't any disaster, as stated several times, it was takano's carnage plan)

why? read the TIPS #133, the volcano gas disaster is full of flaws (i really can't believe they were doing this cover like amateurs)

the goverment can't kill the whole village, because there isn't any elligable raison, ever. (the very existence of the hinamizawa syndrom would simply discredit the government and would give them a statue of ruthless killers, planning some stupid bioweapon and get a silly backfire) so why not faking all of this mess with a natural disaster?

the clues :
1) as stated in the TIPS, there are too much inconsistencies in the "natural gas disaster"
2) the disaster happen a bit...too luckily for takano (right after she killed rika, the whole village is wiped... that kind of coincidence is plain impossible, or it would happen at watanagashi-hen and meakashi-hen. that was the whole point of the previous discussion about the queen theory etc : the disaster is a cover, takano want hinamizawa wiped. takano used a silly theory and kill anyone who is preventing it)

so, to me, takano is alive and of course, is enjoying the whole mess.

here are a summary of the whole thing :
  • takano, irie and tomitake are sent to hinamizawa. their mission is to study the syndrom, make several research to cure it, but also to master it (unvalueable weapon, since it cannot be detected, whatever the H170 or the pathogen itself, as demonstrated in the piece, and with each tomitake's death)
  • takano secret plan is in fact to avenge her grandfather, forcing the authorities to show respect to their researchs. also, she want to fulfill his wish : to become a god (whatever how and what)
  • takano sets several points to the institue that the syndrom is a "queen" type (from the last piece we have, it seems that takano aknowledge that the queen theory is false, but she wants to prove that the human mind is controlled by parasites, which was Later takano theory)
  • the group contacts the furude family. (takano took the advantage of the local myth, with oyashiro-sama and its reincarnation. the whole story fits with the "miko with divine power" belief)
  • the dam project is announced. the yamainu is sent to stop it with the kidnapping of the grandson construction minister. (proved with Himarsubushi-hen : Ooishi and Akasaka noticed that the 2 kidnappers were trained, beyong simple "yakuza" or villager level)
  • the group intercepted the sixth dam manager killer, an L5.
  • the institue is working on the pathogen with the living sample, since they can't study it with dead hosts.
  • because of his guilt, irie dare to try the C103, in a despaired attempt to prevent satoko being disseced by takano.
  • the C103 is effective on satoko.
  • takano doesn't mind, since they have valuable data with the H170 (giving her the possibility to create a L5 anytime she wishes)
with the above information, we can deduce that :
-takano planned for several years gathering data which would credit her for her queen theory.
-for this, she needed to control the syndrom
-with this mastery, she could plan the disaster : she could simply kill furude rika, and points it was villager fault (the watanagashi style), and using for her benefit the paranoia and killing frenzy (with or without the H170)
=>double effect : the villagers wille believe that the culprit followed oyashiro-sama will. they will fear their god wrath. and takano will then have more points, showing the village chaos.


=> this will result for several things :
1) her theory was proved, and she could then use her grandfather research to get approved as well.
2) she would leave her name to the history as a savior of japan (she avoided the whole hinamizawa chaos, by finding the "queen theory" and setting the carnage backplan, though it wouldn't be known for the people, the government would be "thanful" to her, for her researchs etc), and also, the cause of a genocide. (you know... people can be very high when they feel they have the power to decide if someone can live or should die...)

and it seems that at each chapter, she approches a random friend of rika, planning him/her to create some mess.
it is obvious that she was toying with the future mad kid, leaving more paranoia around.
so, she gets a perfect scapegoat and a living L5 sample in action, proving to the goverment of the lost control over the pathogen, because of furude rika's death

the main flaws :
-she needs to activate her disaster plan within 48h from rika's death (if she can't set a paranoid chaos within this time limit, the queen theory is null and void. if the chaos happen before rika's death, it doesn't prove anything either. so it can't be prior to rika's death, nor too late)
-she can't do this before or way after the watanagashi festival (she needs the whole local myth and the "normality" as someone dies and another disappears each year, thanks to the local people belief around Hinamizawa)

Last edited by Klashikari; 2006-10-30 at 09:53.
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Old 2006-10-30, 16:22   Link #71
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won't quote Klashikari so:

*consider everything quoted*

thumbs up, thought all that was pretty obbious, but merging them like that makes people realise it better

As a note, mind you, how do we actually know that Takano died at the Hinamizawa disaster? she and the Yamainu could left and nobody would notice since they already thought she was dead from the burnt woman they found. I think there is a chance she just fled in time and now lives away, might be even protected by the government since she proved her theories and left a whole information on the syndrome (and the 'deadly' H170) for them.
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Old 2006-10-30, 22:03   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
[*]takano sets several points to the institue that the syndrom is a "queen" type (from the last piece we have, it seems that takano aknowledge that the queen theory is false, but she wants to prove that the human mind is controlled by parasites, which was Later takano theory)[/LIST][LIST]
Sorry

But why do you think that Takano aknowledges the theory is wrong at this specific point?

I think that up to now (1980) she still thinks it's a feasible theory

another interesting point
This Hinamizawa Syndrome is pretty strange. When does it came to existence?
Is it a disease that always existed since the ancient ages, or it is some kind of artificial disease?
I was thinking about it for quite some time....
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Last edited by theacefrehley; 2006-10-30 at 22:08. Reason: adding...
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Old 2006-10-31, 06:02   Link #73
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in fact, it is only a speculation.
the H170 (Piece #02) shows how far takano is able to go.
alonside with her comments, there is the most important thing about takano : her vision of the syndrom, and the human mind :
Quote:
......Anyway, the research is going very well.
What is Hinamizawa Syndrome trying to show us humans?
There's no doubt it'll be showing us yet-unseen secrets, my heart dances in intellectual excitement.

The Hinamizawa Syndrome has shown us the possibility that humans are nothing more than empty containers, and the things that we believe to be our own consciousness are actually something that came from special parasites that live in our frontal lobes.
i felt really strange that if she really thought the queen theory was solid, why suddenly babling with such serious this kind of theory?

she was also more concerned with the fact they can now create any L5 at will, despite the fact they can study the pathogen directly with rika.

so, i deduce that rika wasn't important at all at the current time (1980), although she was "believing" with irie it was a queen theory.

but this isn't really important i think, wherever she believes it or not, we can understand her personnality.



as for the hinamizawa syndrom itself, we don't have enough material to determine where it comes from, and how/why.
local disease? artificial (bioweapon) ?

i don't really have a clear picture about it, but according the stories about the Onigafuchi people, the pathogen (or something really close to it) was already in action.
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Old 2006-10-31, 15:06   Link #74
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I take it it's been a long gone since the syndrome exists, since Takano grandpa was researching on it, you can go back at least some decades. And than, I don't believe that back in 1950~1960 they had enough technology to develop such thing (do we have it now?). Also, Takano speculates the syndrome was discovered on that Marco Polo incident during the war (1940's), which takes us further back. So I believe the syndrome is a natural occurence.

I think that if Takano believes or not on the Queen Theory is irrelevant, since what really matters to her is that the government does so she can trigger the great disaster. However, it's certain it's not true since in the chapters where the great disaster did not occur (but Rika died) nothing serious happened besides an eventual resident going mad, which is quite understandable since their beloved miko "Oyashiro-sama" reincarnation died.

Yet Rika is an important research item regardless their capability to create L5 at will with H170 since she is the main host. I mean, it's clear that if people go away from Rika they get L5 eventually, but it's also clear they can go L5 near her (at the city). So here is a thought: do they get L5 because they get away from Rika, or if they get away from Hinamizawa? (enviroment might be the key to the syndrome, not a 'queen' host).

Side note: I don't think Takano dies in any arch. She just disapears and leave a fake body as in the burnt woman. Note how "Miyo" is a false name. I don't think she would go all that far to just die in her own mistake.

Also I believe there is a reason why that burnt body was found and believed to be dead 24h earlier than the festival: perfect alibi for Takano, I mean, even they believing she is dead, they cannot even imagine she killed Tomitake or has anything to do with Rika's death since they believe she was long dead before that! And since it's important for Takano to become God (in the sense of heroism, famous, leave a name), it was important to create a alibi even "after" her death.
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Old 2006-10-31, 16:03   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Caiobrz View Post
Yet Rika is an important research item regardless their capability to create L5 at will with H170 since she is the main host. I mean, it's clear that if people go away from Rika they get L5 eventually, but it's also clear they can go L5 near her (at the city). So here is a thought: do they get L5 because they get away from Rika, or if they get away from Hinamizawa? (enviroment might be the key to the syndrome, not a 'queen' host).
i was not really thinking like this.
in fact, i supposed the whole pathogen is simply living within the fauna and flora of hinamizawa.
there isn't any restriction to stay there or not : they were some inhabitants who were leaving this place (example : maebara couple, houjou "foster" couple, and especially : ryuuguu couple) and didn't show any problem.
the main reason the others couldn't is because the silly belief. (i was really concerned about what satoshi said to "mion" when he was mumbling about oyashiro-sama and all.)
example : Rena was a child, she was utterly shocked of the truth about her mother. the impact of this has activated the pathogen. she then gets crazy about any threat... but some time later, she felt uneasy, guilty for what she has said and done. she even thought it was her fault that her parents get divorced... and finally, she has taken the easy path : oyashiro-sama curse.

the fact none of her parents were subject to the paranoia is a proof. (and also, the tips about rena demonstrated she was really aweakened by the seperation).

thus, i don't think the problem comes from the distance between people and a "certain source". i think people were just getting L5 after the Great Hinamizawa Disaster because of the chaos and their belief to oyashiro-sama.

so, i conclude the pathogen is only lurking around hinamizawa, and anyone who is under a specific mental state will trigger the pathogen, while being infected, wherever he/she is.
the hardcore villagers would trigger it with any "blasphemy" shock around oyashiro, the others from painful experiences etc. examples : rena's parents divorce, satoko's mother and stepfather, sonozaki family for shion, Rena and Mion strange behaviour in onikakushi for keiichi, etc etc. (indeed, takano and ooishi helped growing keiichi, shion and rena paranoia)

so, leaving the area wouldn't make it any worse nor better, as long as the subject doesn't have a proper cure.



but if i'm wrong, the environnment can be the cause, which would explain why rika said in himatsubushi-hen "we can't live anywhere else" to akasaka, and also this belief about getting punished by oyashiro-sama if you leave the village. (the matter about a carrier is really out of question)

in the other hand, we can't say staying near of rika will make anyone mad (rika's friend don't become crazy, until a sadistic takano is roaming around with her freaky scrapbooks. the children in school don't really look mentally ill, and chie sensei is really... well "genki" ^^. i'm aware that satoko was a L5 wityhout showing any dangereous external sign. but with the stress and all of rena's school assault at Tsumihoroboshi-hen, i guess they have no particular sensivity towards Rika, although they are really often with her )


note that the H170 is a serum made by the institue, exactly like the C103, it doesn't come from any subject (irie says several times this is a drug under test for the C103, and he was comparing them in effects and all. the H170 is simulating a unstable mind state, nothing really "fancy" )


finally, i won't quote your post about takano, it's plain obvious : she is alive, and enjoy her glory in most time of the story.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2006-10-31 at 16:17.
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Old 2006-10-31, 18:37   Link #76
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The missing Pieces of the Puzzle (#17, #27, #13, and #05) have been posted.

Last edited by kj1980; 2006-10-31 at 19:05.
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Old 2006-10-31, 20:03   Link #77
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whew, thanks KJ, this is really interesting ! (sheesh, i wasn't excepting irie background would be THAT complex oO)

i guess the second and third sacrifice pieces will be really interesting too (patiente will be worthy indeed. thanks again for the great job ! )
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Old 2006-11-01, 02:11   Link #78
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Mmm....I love this thread/everything you guys have done so far!

I just finished watching the anime this week and I have to say I was totally confused about everything and this has really helped clear the majority of it up. The only thing left being that accursed Satoshi! (curse you!) Hehe but I can wait <3

Anyway my theory about Satoshi was already posted in that I believe he was dissected after he killed his aunt and went craaaaazzzyy. I dont quite see how they could have convinced Irei to do but I am pretty sure thats the only real logical explanation. (Unless he really is in Canada!)

Hehe oh well only time will tell.
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Old 2006-11-01, 04:02   Link #79
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The missing Pieces of the Puzzle (#17, #27, #13, and #05) have been posted.
Um, thanks. I was looking forward for that.
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Old 2006-11-02, 08:43   Link #80
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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Sorry

another interesting point
This Hinamizawa Syndrome is pretty strange. When does it came to existence?
Is it a disease that always existed since the ancient ages, or it is some kind of artificial disease?
I was thinking about it for quite some time....
ha this always puzzle me too. I tried my best to come up with a feasible theory/story to link the syndrome and oyashirosama and the watanagashi tradition together, and here's the lame story i come up, takano scrapbook style:

In the distant past, a spaceship fell and landed into Hinamizawa swamp, an alien name Hanyuu was the sole survivor of the accident, in which the difference between her and the normal earthlings is the 2 horns she had on her forehead.

She fell in love with one of the villager head and form a family with him (Rika's ancestor). Some times past and there was an outbreak of a strange disease that will cause people to go mad, attacking and killing one another, even end up butchering and eating the bodies. After careful investigation, she found out the cause of the disease was due to the alien parasite, (or micro bio organism that can control human emotions) that is attached to the spaceship during its space travel, and is brought into planet earth by the crush of the space ship. (Since the spaceship is sank in the swamp thus folktales says that demons arise from the bottomless swamp)

Hanyuu acts as a doctor and try to cure the disease by isolating the people, keeping them emotionally stable, and even let them ate infected human flesh to build up their immune system (copy from the anime's Reana's explaination of the syndrome)

But in the end the disease was still out of control, thus in the act of desperation, Hanyuu sacrifice herself by letting the villagers watanagashi her and ate her flesh to gain immunity, since she is totally immune to the disease. (Or perhaps she was the original carrier and trigger for the disease? that explains well with the guilt she had and the "sorry" she kept saying)

Hanyuu spirits lives on although her body is dead (if you really want an explaination, I'll just say is Alien life cycle structure that is uncomprehensible by normal human explanation)
and she was worshipped as god for her act of sacrifice by the villagers.

Going into more out of strech imagination:
Hanyuu is actually a vampire alien and Chie was sent to investigate it by her organisation (Using 7th heaven..... is it just a fan-service or a plotline that shows Chie is actually the same person in the other Typemoon series?)

The paranoid/bugs are actually create by spells/socery which is practice by Zoken Mato (Sakura's grandfather) of Fate/Stay Night. (..... this seems far fetch since higurashi comes out before Fate/Stay Night lol)

Last edited by tehtf; 2006-11-02 at 09:01.
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