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Old 2006-10-31, 23:22   Link #41
myopius
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Eh? This topic is posted about the anime, when we're only on episode 5? Well, no real issue. So it's just a general morality topic? Not intended to discuss whether the characters are moral or whether their actions are moral, particularly? The latter is certainly discussable at this time, I suppose. I'm amazed that people have (well, a person has) already made statements equivocating a belief related to morality in Death Note to a religious belief, maybe that paranoia isn't unfounded. o.o

Anyway. I've considered this so much that it's all become too complex for me to analyze in a way that satisfies me. So, I'll just write about the United States criminal justice system, for now.

Evidence-based police analyses show no connection between the death penalty and deterrence of crime. In fact, "brutalization" and "resetting" are terms to describe how the crime rate may rise for a period of time after capital punishment is administered.

Deterrence requires that the criminal weigh the pros and cons of committing the crime with the consequence which is intended to deter the crime in mind and then make a deliberate decision to commit the crime.

What's the reality? A majority of capital crimes are between people who know one another, many of those are spontaneous and hardly premeditated, and therefore with a severe likelihood that a suspect will be immediately indentified. Detectives clear 86% of such cases (immediate suspect identification) but only 12% of those in which one is not (identified). Murderers who premeditate and thus are subject to deterrence will not be as easily identified as those who don't, and if so will have an 88% chance of not getting anywhere near the death penalty. Not only that, criminals wait an average of 8 years on death row, and the appeals process causes only a tiny fraction of those sentenced to actually... die.

Applied to Death Note, all criminals who commit a crime worthy of media sensationalism are subject to the possibility of immediate and uncontested punishment (that is, Kira's divine retribution).

If Kira were to obtain the cooperation of the police, then he would also have access to cases not sensationalized, and would be to then, for instance, kill absolutely anyone who commits or is suspected to commit a certain type of crime. That certainty, when weighed in the criminal mind, would have a much more significant deterring effect than capital punishment as it currently exists.

In particular,
Spoiler for Manga:


By the way, note that Light is killing criminals also because he believes it's justice to kill the rotten, not just because of the deterring effect. Light's moral belief it is not that it's enough to protect the innocent. From Light's point of view, the murders are in themselves just. However, he does believe the act of murder is immoral. Therefore, he is sinning in order to exact justice--which he recognizes. (Probably no one understood this distinction, unfortunately.)
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Old 2006-10-31, 23:49   Link #42
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Originally Posted by AvianWing View Post
Do you spite a child who tries to bake a cake on mother's day but ends up burning it? the kid tried, even if he wasted the ingredients to bake the cake.
I spite the kid that bakes his mother a birthday cake using the blood of other people.

To me, Light crossed the line the second he decided that he was somehow worthy to arbirate the life and death of others, and that even the innocent were expendable in his desire not to be caught. Light fears death for himself, but has no mercy towards others.

And before someone brings up that our justice system judges people, there is a difference between twelve people (in America, my frame of reference) and a single person. It is more difficult to get twelve people to agree on something than it is for a single person to decide whether someone is right or wrong.

Of course, Light's idea for utopia would never work. The odds are against Kira noticing you, and humans are a gambling lot...
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Old 2006-11-01, 14:32   Link #43
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I think mentioning God and religious stuff are a bit off-topic : the deal is to think if human beings have right to kill people...otherwise It would be endless.


Human is the most perfect being on this world, and yet the most evil. I don't want to give examples, but you sure know many crimes that are beyond imagination (strangely commited by men, not women...)

Anyway, if I had the Death note, I just couldn't use it.
Not because of all the morality. Just because death is the nicest punishment to criminals, rapists, robbers,terrorists, and so on........

Hey, does someone hold the Torture Note ?
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Old 2006-11-01, 14:46   Link #44
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Personally, I think some people like rapists and murderers just deserve to die, but I doubt I'd be able to use the Death Note. I wouldn't feel like I have the right to sentence even the most horrible scumbags, and I wouldn't want to carry with a burden for the rest of my life for wasting my time with that kind of "people".

In any case, the current justice system just has those people locked up. I say that, hiding behind the excuse that it's meant to "reform" these people, the punishment is quite barbaric too; it removes them from society by taking their freedom. Death does the same, except there's no coming back from that, of course.
Justice judges and sentences people based on its power, and that's exactly what Light is doing. Justice without power is meaningless. If Yagami Light is the most powerful person in the world, then he is justice. People who represent justice are a pathetic number compared to the whole of society, and they certainly don't represent everyone's ideals. How can there ever be a true, perfect definition of justice if there's absolutely no way to represent everyone?

By the way, hitokirigirl, you can choose the cause of their death, so you could make them die in a fire or something nice like that.
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Old 2006-11-01, 15:27   Link #45
Aidan
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Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post
If Yagami Light is the most powerful person in the world, then he is justice.
I won't go to deep into it, but by your statement, a dictator, a tyrant can also be just.
Forcing his/her rule, his/her image of a better world, onto the people in a country, under the threat of physical harm or death is what a dictator/tyrant does.

Last edited by Aidan; 2006-11-01 at 15:41.
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Old 2006-11-01, 15:42   Link #46
hitokirigirl
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Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post
By the way, hitokirigirl, you can choose the cause of their death, so you could make them die in a fire or something nice like that.
Yes, true, forgot about that....But it would be temporary torture though. Something lasting a few times would be better, don't you think ?
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Old 2006-11-01, 16:06   Link #47
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Quote:
I won't go to deep into it, but by your statement, a dictator, a tyrant can also be just.
Forcing his/her rule, his/her image of a better world, onto the people in a country, under the threat of physical harm or death is what a dictator/tyrant does.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying I like it, but whoever has the most power can make his decisions "justice", as they are the ones with the ability to enforce what they want. Right now, the flawed (but the least flawed in history, perhaps?) judicial and legislative systems are "justice", because it's the system that is currently in power. Of course, it doesn't do a perfect job, judges aren't perfect, and neither are laws, but humans aren't perfect.

The current system also limits people's freedom under the threat of being locked up or the capital punishment.
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Old 2006-11-01, 16:52   Link #48
ThisIsDream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post
If Yagami Light is the most powerful person in the world, then he is justice.
I won't go to deep into it, but by your statement, a dictator, a tyrant can also be just.
Forcing his/her rule, his/her image of a better world, onto the people in a country, under the threat of physical harm or death is what a dictator/tyrant does.
Yagami Raito didnt FORCE people, he understand that people have 2 faces. Yagami Raito also understand that there are people who are oppiste him, he is not going to kill them, he wants people slowly to accept the "ideal world".

Yagami Raito only kill those people who are opposite him and willing to risk their life to stop "kira" the "ideal world". IN that case deaths are inevitable.


Let me quote this thing again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neux (Manga Thread)
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-11-01, 17:19   Link #49
Aidan
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Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
Yagami Raito didnt FORCE people, he understand that people have 2 faces. Yagami Raito also understand that there are people who are oppiste him, he is not going to kill them, he wants people slowly to accept the "ideal world".
And if they don't? I bet it doesn't matter does it, he will just keep on doing what he is doing.
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Old 2006-11-01, 17:40   Link #50
ThisIsDream
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And if they don't? I bet it doesn't matter does it, he will just keep on doing what he is doing.
If they dont, it doesnt mean Yagami will kill them. How many people are satisfied with the Law todaY ? What Yagami Raito's doing are just same as police, L.

L, police - Criminal Rate Drop - a ideal world

How? Put them in Jail, No Freedom, or sometimes Death penalty

Yagami Raito - Criminal Rate drop - a ideal world

How? Death penalty


Conclusion - Which one are more effective?
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Old 2006-11-01, 18:19   Link #51
hitokirigirl
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Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
If they dont, it doesnt mean Yagami will kill them. How many people are satisfied with the Law todaY ? What Yagami Raito's doing are just same as police, L.

L, police - Criminal Rate Drop - a ideal world

How? Put them in Jail, No Freedom, or sometimes Death penalty

Yagami Raito - Criminal Rate drop - a ideal world

How? Death penalty


Conclusion - Which one are more effective?
True that in the last eps, that police officer (whatever his name) said that criminality dropped a bit. It means criminals, or at least potential ones are afraid to die from that invisible hand...

However, while this is an anime, I have strong doubts that method will work in real life...And undoubtly fear and paranoia would set up, perhaps something similar to Staline time, when everyone were spying each other, and if wrong, was sent to the end of Siberia.
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Old 2006-11-01, 18:35   Link #52
Aidan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
If they dont, it doesnt mean Yagami will kill them. How many people are satisfied with the Law todaY ? What Yagami Raito's doing are just same as police, L.

L, police - Criminal Rate Drop - a ideal world

How? Put them in Jail, No Freedom, or sometimes Death penalty

Yagami Raito - Criminal Rate drop - a ideal world

How? Death penalty


Conclusion - Which one are more effective?
I wonder how I should explain this to you, without insulting your view of the world.

You know, I can't believe you are comparing what the police does, to what a murderer such as Light does. Even if the system is broken, the police is not above the law, they don't just go out and start executing criminals. (well some do, until they get caught and put in jail themselves) Light thinks he is above the law, his judgment is right and he can kill anybody he sees fit to die. I really wonder what would happen if someone would have taken the death note away from Light and given him a gun, would he still do the things he did with the death note.

If killing people for committing even the smallest crimes was such a good idea every crime would be punishable by death. But only in the most rare and extreme cases are people put to death. You see it doesn't matter if every crime would have a death penalty, people would still commit them. People are still driven to break laws by society. This is the very core of the problem and why laws and the judgment system is so broken. Laws and the judgment system only deal with the symptoms of a problem instead of the root of the problem. The symptoms being crime, the root being a whole bunch of things which range from poverty to greed. If every crime carried a death penalty, crime wouldn't disappear, criminals would just become more desperate before committing a crime and more determined to not get caught. Crimes would become more deadly and more innocent people would get hurt. Not a very effective way to make an ideal world.
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Old 2006-11-01, 18:49   Link #53
ThisIsDream
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Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
You know, I can't believe you are comparing what the police does, to what a murderer such as Light does. Even if the system is broken, the police is not above the law, they don't just go out and start executing criminals. (well some do, until they get caught and put in jail themselves) Light thinks he is above the law, his judgment is right and he can kill anybody he sees fit to die. I really wonder what would happen if someone would have taken the death note away from Light and given him a gun, would he still do the things he did with the death note.
Actually, I am not saying police will go out and executing. Police (following the law) are just going to catch those criminals, and the penatly things will judge by the court or some people (Human being) same as Yagami Raito.

Law - Criminal Rate Drop - a ideal world

How? Put them in Jail, No Freedom, or sometimes Death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
If killing people for committing even the smallest crimes was such a good idea every crime would be punishable by death. But only in the most rare and extreme cases are people put to death. You see it doesn't matter if every crime would have a death penalty, people would still commit them. People are still driven to break laws by society. This is the very core of the problem and why laws and the judgment system is so broken. Laws and the judgment system only deal with the symptoms of a problem instead of the root of the problem. The symptoms being crime, the root being a whole bunch of things which range from poverty to greed. If every crime carried a death penalty, crime wouldn't disappear, criminals would just become more desperate before committing a crime and more determined to not get caught. Crimes would become more deadly and more innocent people would get hurt. Not a very effective way to make an ideal world.
That is what the law today is like, but not everyone in the world are satisfied with it. Just like there are people who think the law in "kira world" is bad.
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Old 2006-11-01, 18:57   Link #54
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There would be no judgement if there were no crimes.
There would be no law if there were no criminals.

Light (the one from the bulb :>) can't exist without darkness and otherwise. The "perfect" world Light is fighting for can't exist in human terms.

I don't care about the morality in Death Note because there IS no end to Light's way of justifying others.
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Old 2006-11-01, 19:03   Link #55
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^ yup, and this is were Light was completely overwhelmed in his drunk state of power.
he was saying the same thing himself : humans are hopeless, tending to harm each other etc. (the very nature of the human to do anything, good or bad, depending on the POV)

this is such a irrational thinking to believe he will correct "the world" with his godlike power, though he knows himself that anyone can do any sin, depending of their life, situations, mental state yada yada.

he was not even wrong from the moment he killed the fake L, he was wrong at the second he aknowledge the power of the death note and just carries on the burden and the whole psychotic crusade.
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Old 2006-11-01, 20:28   Link #56
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While perfection may be unattainable, humans still aim for perfection. Light believes that he can make the world a better place, so he tries hard to make his ideal world a reality. I mean who doesn't want the world to be a better place? Why is wanting a better world irrational? It may be unachievable, but there is nothing wrong in trying to think that we can create the "perfect" world.

One thing to think about is, are all soldiers murderers if they kill another person on the battle field? A soldier may take the lives of many many people, so are they just mass-murderers? They are supposedly fighting for their country, but is that really an excuse? If they truly didn't want to kill, they didn't have to enlist in the army. Their enemies may be trying to take over their nation, but their enemies aren't necessarily trying to kill the solders in particular...so self-defense is arguably not a good reason for a soldier to kill another person. However, despite all that, I would think that most, if not all people would regard soldiers as "heroes" and not "murderers". Why is it OK for them to kill people then?

On the same note, consider the case, in medieval times, where the leader of a group of rebels overthrows an evil tyrant and becomes the new king. Under the evil tyrant, the country and its citizens were miserable, but under the rule of the rebel king, the country prospers and its citizens are happy. But the rebel had no choice but to kill the people protecting the evil tyrant in order to do so. The rebels make the country prosper so they're good...but they killed some people so they are evil. But if they didn't kill those people, more people would have suffered and died under the rule of the evil tyrant. If the rebels have the power to make the country a better place for its citizens, and don't do so because they don't want to kill someone, then aren't the rebels guilty of watching people suffer and evil live? Isn't that also evil to continue letting people suffer when you have the power to stop it? Aren't they a bit selfish if they don't do it because they think killing is wrong, despite the fact that it will, arguably bring greater good? I think this is what Light was getting at, when he decided that he was the one who was gonna do it for the sake of the innocent. I just don't think Light is as evil as many say he is, although the methods he uses are evil.

Anyways, I'd rather just sit and enjoy the show and not worry about morality issues. Forgot about the fact that Light's ideal won't work in real life, and remember that this is a just fictional story. It's not often you see a story like this due to the controversy it brings.
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Old 2006-11-01, 20:38   Link #57
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the problem in my eyes, is he would need to change the humans themself...
this is a real... child dream to think you can change the whole and complex human psyche with that tyrrany...

that's why, the laws are "human" justice were done (even if they are really loosely, because of the human nature itself) : an act can be "good" or "evil" depending on the point of view, context, culprit motive, etc.
on the battlefield, its the soldier duty to defend his affectation/land/country/the person he/she love/believe/etc.

that's why, it's really questionnable that Light would have any right to kill anyone, just because he has... the power ?!
no human has the "right" to kill in most case, there are indeed situations you can't overlook etc.

the main flaw with light : he thinks he can give divine punishment, though he is... human himself. whatever he thinks, he is just a silly eccentric human with a powerful book. the notebook just gives him the opportunity to gave power, but this doesn't give him any "above human" status. he can't be killed like any human, he can be (no) trusted/loved etc like any human. and indeed, he is not perfect.

thats the very point why i think Light has a ripped mental logic : it's completely flawful.



of course (and fortunately), it is fictionnal. but the fiction can be based on reality (with "if''s of course).
except the death note and the shinigame concept, DN is... well realistic.
talking is probably just some way to understand the personnality of the characters etc (some readers would see light as a brat, other as a genius etc). yet, it's interesting, right?
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Old 2006-11-01, 23:06   Link #58
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Though, if it's a child's dream...then people looking for world peace may also be living in a child's dream. If it is in the nature of humans to fight with one another, then the people seeking world peace are also seeking to change the "psyche" of humans, because true world peace is just not possible

For some soldiers, even for the sake of duty...does that free them of the fact that they will and have killed people. If it's duty, if it's wrong, they can still refuse to do it. If the know that it's wrong, and still obey that duty and kill...then they have crossed the line. If it's for duty, one might say that Light feels that it's his duty to do what he's trying to do for the sake of good people (like a soldier might feel like it's his/her duty to do it for his/her country).

That said, Light having power does give him an undeniable advantage over other people. And he does, arguably, have the power to change the world to his liking. And with that comes responsibility in seeing that world succeed that most people wouldn't want or have. He may not be "God", but he is a person with a lot of influence and power on how the world may turn out.

Light's plan to get rid of criminals for the ideal world is flawed, but then again, who can really claim an idea is really flawless? If humans aren't perfect, how can an imperfect human come with a perfect idea? If we wait for an idea to be perfect, nothing will be done. Light just took the initiative.

And yeah, I guess it's interesting. Otherwise, I wouldn't be writing all this.
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Old 2006-11-01, 23:17   Link #59
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Wink

Actually, I start to understand why people think Light is a bad guy.
We are all human being, and I think no human being has the "right" to kill an other human being, I think no human being has the "right" to put someone in jail, I think no human being has the "right" to execute an other human being, White people think Black people dont have the "right"

As I can see, "right" is something a human being set for an other human being. It might be better if Light is not a human being, may be a shinigami? OH wait, I think shinigami dont have the "right" to kill and I also think God dont have the "right" to send ppl to hell.

Conclusion, at this rate, no one can make the world better (or has the right to), because no one has the right to do .....
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Old 2006-11-01, 23:57   Link #60
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In other words, having the ability to change the world gives you the right to do so? Interesting concept.
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