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Old 2006-11-07, 04:57   Link #101
Suna no tate
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Thats right. To this day, no one really knows how strong Gai is, or Tsunade, or Kakashi, and konoha in general. We just have sort of general ideas. But then we can say the same of Akatsuki. Have we seen Hidan fight to his fullest? Probably not. There have been references to Kisame's ultimate jutsu and Oro is always pulling out something new. Still a final battle may not be an end all. After all Asuma died pretty pathetically and left most of us wondering how it was possible he was ever really a jounin. He never really got a chance to show his skills. Well hopefully that won't happen again.
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Old 2006-11-07, 08:17   Link #102
Rachy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate
Thats right. To this day, no one really knows how strong Gai is, or Tsunade, or Kakashi, and konoha in general. We just have sort of general ideas. But then we can say the same of Akatsuki. Have we seen Hidan fight to his fullest? Probably not. There have been references to Kisame's ultimate jutsu and Oro is always pulling out something new. Still a final battle may not be an end all. After all Asuma died pretty pathetically and left most of us wondering how it was possible he was ever really a jounin. He never really got a chance to show his skills. Well hopefully that won't happen again.
He managed to cut off an akatsuki members head, any other akatsuki member woulda died that's not soo bad.. I didn't really want Asuma killing an akatsuki member then akatsuki would look more useless. Not many skills are useful against someone who can't die heh.
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Old 2006-11-07, 09:00   Link #103
Rurik
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I implore you to use spoilers please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
Spoiler:

Spoiler:


Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-11-07, 17:11   Link #104
Xrayz0r
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
Using your car Analogy, is you have a Porsche and are almost out of gas and need to reach for the Gas Station, you wouldn’t accelerate and use 100% the power of the Motor, you go slow so the car does not consume all the fuel, and if a 86 Civic pass you by, it would not mean that the Civic is faster or close to be as fast as the Porsche.
stfu plz.

kthx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
Yeah Chakra is fuel, and It really does not tamper with your Nate abilities, but been at 30% the person needs to have a better use of his chakra left, in other words he needs to constraint himself in other to not waste all his chakra in just one move.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
I was at 11 years old that Itachi became stronger than Orochiamru
?

No.

That seems contradictory with your last statement.

Here I'll copy paste it: Either way, I agree with you, Without MS, Itachi can’t match any f the Sannin.

Yet, Itachi was stronger than Oro at the age of 11, two years before he obtained MS.

Mystery?

Nope.

Itachi became ANBU squad leader at the age of 13.
He left the village when Sasuke was 7.
5 years prior to the start of Naruto, when Itachi was 18.
18 - 5 = 13.
He was 13 when he obtained MS.
So, he became stronger than Oro at the age of 13.
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Old 2006-11-07, 17:35   Link #105
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:



Quote:
?

No.

That seems contradictory with your last statement.

Here I'll copy paste it: Either way, I agree with you, Without MS, Itachi can’t match any f the Sannin.

Yet, Itachi was stronger than Oro at the age of 11, two years before he obtained MS.

Mystery?

Nope.

Itachi became ANBU squad leader at the age of 13.
He left the village when Sasuke was 7.
5 years prior to the start of Naruto, when Itachi was 18.
18 - 5 = 13.
He was 13 when he obtained MS.
So, he became stronger than Oro at the age of 13.
.

It seems contradictory when you don’t read the Manga, Itachi gained the MS at 11 Years old, And Akatsuki already said that Oro left Them 7 years Prior to timeskip, at that moment Itahci was around 18 Years old, meaning that Oro left Akatsuki when Itachi was 11 years old.

Spoiler:


And how do we know He killed Shisui at age 11? Because it was stated That Shiisui was Killed the same Night the Uchiha Meeting took place, this Uchiha Meeting was the same day that Sasuke received his First semester scorecard of the Academy.

I'll write down the timeline if it is of any help

- Achieved Sharingan (8)
- Became Chuunin (10)
- Became ANBU (10.5) - Sasuke entered Academy (5 - 6)
- Killled Shisui (11) -Sasuke Got his first semester grades (5-6)
- Became ANBU captain (13 ) -Sasuke Learned Katon (7-8)
- Killed clan (13)

and because I know you are going to Talk about Sasukes age, let me requote Hunter on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
We know that during part1 Sasuke and Itachi were respectively 12-13 and 17-18 years old from the manga and data book, ie a difference of ~5 years depending of their birth month.
We know from the chapter 145 that the day of the slaughter Sasuke was the same age as when Itachi graduated, ie 7 years old.

Which means it happened betweeb 5 and 6 years before part1 which means Itachi was either 12 or 13.
Given that he also became Anbu leader at 13 it can't be 12.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-07 at 18:24.
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Old 2006-11-07, 17:39   Link #106
astayanax
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Old 2006-11-08, 00:45   Link #107
Suna no tate
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Kisame said the copy ninja was holding his own against Itachi. Itachi himself didn't seemed surprised by Kakashi's skills. When i read that fight, seemed like while Itachi had all the hidden tricks working for him, Kakashi was able to respond well and was even able to protect kurenai who was a real liability. Aside from the tsukuyomi genjutsu, even at that early point in the manga, I'd say there were on relatively even footing, and if Itachi were to win, it certainly wouldn't be easy. After all in that fight you have to understand Itachi was the aggressor, so kakashi can only be judged on his defense. The same can be said with the Jiraiya/Itachi confrontation. We can only judge Itachi in his defense, and pulling out Amaterasu was pretty impressive. Of kakashi, i'd say being able to have the presense of mind to recognize the exploding bunshin and save kurenai was very impressive indeed. So even footing would be my verdict, perhaps with Itachi having the slight edge (I say this leaving out the various MS skills on both sides)
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Old 2006-11-08, 00:50   Link #108
Rachy
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Kabuto must of been rather good then pre-timeskip huh. Being on the same lvl as Kakashi and all.
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Old 2006-11-08, 13:52   Link #109
camds[ao]
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im itachi's 1# fan lol
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Old 2006-11-08, 14:10   Link #110
ILikeSquiReLz
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When it comes to Kage level it doesn't really matter who is the strongest or has the most power. I say this because when people are that strong, any jutsu that is used can kill. It becomes a matter of who makes the first mistake and who takes advantage of the mistake presented.

In regards to what people say. When someone says "this person is so strong that I was lucky to sway them away" they are merely stating respect for that person's skills. In Asian culture we "respect" (for a lack of better word) that someone is strong even if we don't like the person. Especially in Japan, since their culture is highly influence in Boshido and Samurai traditions.

On topic:

With or without Mangekyu, Itachi is at the level as the Kage's and Sannin's. I can confidently say this because Itachi mastered the Sharingan at an early age. He didn't become a genius because of his Sharingan. He simply used what he had to begin with and exploited it. I would have done the same, as what almost every character in Naruto has done, oh like Neji. The only difference is Itachi took it to a whole new level of insanity. If he didn't have Sharingan he would surely use his "Genius" on something else. None the less he would still be at the same level but it would just be with something else.

And it's very unfair to say "he is only at Kakashi's level without Mangekyu" because it's not true. Let’s put it this way. Kakashi has a Sharingan as well as some members of Uchiha clan but they don’t even come close to reaching what Itachi has reached. And for people to say that Kakashi handled the first fight well. You are entitled to your own opinion. But what I saw was a calm, collective Itachi and a flustered Kakashi and Co.

People seem to forget he came from the most feared clan and within that clan he was the apparent revered “Genius”

If you want to do a fair comparison for Itachi without Mangekyu, make sure to take all of the years that the person you compare him to has learned. An example, if Itachi didn’t have the Mangekyu for 4 years he would have been learning something else with that time. So if lets say for example’s sake he has had Mangekyu for 4 years and you compare him to Kakashi, take 4 years of what ever Kakashi has learned including experience completely away from him and do the comparison. I assure you he is no where near Itachi.
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Old 2006-11-08, 16:08   Link #111
inferno_grl
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Originally Posted by camds[ao] View Post
im itachi's 1# fan lol
no way! that possision is already taken. sorry.
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Old 2006-11-08, 19:25   Link #112
Suna no tate
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Originally Posted by miss rave View Post
Kabuto must of been rather good then pre-timeskip huh. Being on the same lvl as Kakashi and all.
Nobody really knows. There seems to be a lot of confusion among the ninjas in terms of power levels. Itachi thinks Jiraiya is stronger than him. Jiraiya said Itachi's power was out of this world. Oro said Itachi could kill him and Sasuke combined. Itachi said the legendary three were real badboys (including tsunade in that comment I assume). Oro says kabuto is stronger than kakashi. Kakashi said Kabuto was stronger than him. Kabuto loses to a weakling naruto more or less. Its all so confusing. So here's my ranking to help clear it up!

1)4 Tailed Naruto (Oro did say that chakra ball could have killed him. And he fled the scene. If naruto really wants to stay four tailed, I bet no one can really pull him out of it. I bet the 3 tailed naruto would be enough to seriously handle anyone below.)
2)Jiraiya/Gai (unlocked gates? plus knows how to fight against sharingan users? Jiraiya based on his reputation.)
3)Itachi/Oro/Kakashi (both sharingan users having unlocked their MS can fight each other and Oro equally well. Itachi vs Kakashi in the first fight was pretty even until the MS was pulled out by Itachi. I don't see Amaterasu burning through the chakra shield at the 4 tailed level and I don't see tsukuyomi having any real effect because its essentially the kyubi in control at the higher levels. If naruto's mind is basically crushed, it just gives the kyubi more freedom and you'd probably see more tails come out. 6 tails maybe 7!)
4)Everyone else (konohamaru at the bottom and maybe that girl who works at Icharuku Ramen)
5)Sasuke cause he's a traitor and doesn't deserve a real ranking!

Last edited by Suna no tate; 2006-11-08 at 19:44.
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Old 2006-11-08, 19:59   Link #113
astayanax
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Quote:
Kabuto loses to a weakling naruto more or less. Its all so confusing.
Kabuto didn't lose to Naruto. He was beating Tsunade until she got saved; and he defeated Naruto; and Shizune; AND having Jiraiya highly impressed with him. Kabuto got hit with 2 moves in that confrontation:

- Tsunade nerve confusing taijutsu slap. That move (if connected) would had powned Jiraiya, The 4th, Itachi, you named it. However, Kabuto worked around it IN combat.

- Rasengen. A move that would had easily killed Jiraiya etc if it connected yet it didn't faze Kabuto too much except he was already fighting for an extended time before that.

Spoiler:


While Kishimoto isn't really giving Kabuto much love lately; he really shouldn't be underestimated.

Quote:
Kisame said the copy ninja was holding his own against Itachi.
I agree; he was. However, Itachi wasn't even trying. He was simply gauging Kakashi's reflexes and such.
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Old 2006-11-08, 20:09   Link #114
astayanax
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1)4 Tailed Naruto (Oro did say that chakra ball could have killed him. And he fled the scene. If naruto really wants to stay four tailed, I bet no one can really pull him out of it. I bet the 3 tailed naruto would be enough to seriously handle anyone below.)
I disagree. Orochimaru left because his body was rejecting him. With a proper body, he would had won quite easily. For the entire fight, Orochimaru wasn't concerned at all.

My rankings (based on observation and personal opinion):

1. AK Leader/Itachi
2. Orochimaru
3. Deidara/Jiraiya
4. MS Kakashi/Kabuto/Sasuke (Kakashi without the MS would be (5) or (6))
5. Tsunade/Other Akatsuki/Gai (Gai can jump to 2 using all gates though)
6. Naruto (all tails for up to now, the more power he has, the more retarded he fights)
7. Gaara and other Demon holders

People may be surprised as to why I have Deidara ranked so high but these are my reasoning:

- He has been given the hardest missions upto date
- He usually have to do them on his own or with a joke of a partner
- He usually end up having great complications at the end of his missions (like having to deal with a MS Kakashi AND a Kyuufied-ish Naruto after having to beat Gaara without killing him)
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Old 2006-11-08, 21:44   Link #115
MobiuS
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I think Sasori would have easily top3'd with that Spiderman dude if they werent dead.
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Old 2006-11-08, 22:33   Link #116
Suna no tate
Akatsuki Bart is Tobi
 
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Umm... Orochimaru is one of those guys who treats everything as a joke. I mean seriously. Everything he says its like he's joking around. I've only heard him say 2 absolutely serious comments about people. One was a statement that Itachi could kill him, the other was as a statement that naruto's chakra ball was actually real trouble for him and that it could kill him. Everything in that fight regarding naruto (and in general) was said in like a condescending manner. 4 tailed naruto was owning him! All he could do was push him back and then run away because of an "adverse reaction". Anyway my point is everything to him is playtime, even if he's getting his head pounded so you can't judge his statements to be reflective of his power compared to naruto. What you can judge is the battle between the two and in that battle, only one was in the position to kill the other. You can look at Oro's other fights and you can see that he only gets serious when he's immediately in danger. As soon as he's out of danger, he returns to being condescending.

I'm also pleased because I found the chapter where Kabuto tells of how sasori said he was going to personally kill orochimaru. A lot of people have been asking about it. Its chapter 294 if it means anything. Anyway, but yeah it seems of all the Akatsuki members, sasori was the one who hated orochimaru the most.
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Old 2006-11-08, 22:56   Link #117
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Umm... Orochimaru is one of those guys who treats everything as a joke. I mean seriously. Everything he says its like he's joking around. I've only heard him say 2 absolutely serious comments about people. One was a statement that Itachi could kill him, the other was as a statement that naruto's chakra ball was actually real trouble for him and that it could kill him. Everything in that fight regarding naruto (and in general) was said in like a condescending manner. 4 tailed naruto was owning him! All he could do was push him back and then run away because of an "adverse reaction". Anyway my point is everything to him is playtime, even if he's getting his head pounded so you can't judge his statements to be reflective of his power compared to naruto. What you can judge is the battle between the two and in that battle, only one was in the position to kill the other. You can look at Oro's other fights and you can see that he only gets serious when he's immediately in danger. As soon as he's out of danger, he returns to being condescending.

I'm also pleased because I found the chapter where Kabuto tells of how sasori said he was going to personally kill orochimaru. A lot of people have been asking about it. Its chapter 294 if it means anything. Anyway, but yeah it seems of all the Akatsuki members, sasori was the one who hated orochimaru the most.
Yup. Smugness and being condescending is just Oro's way. That's trait's common among powerful villains like him. Like you said, he never seems worried unless the situation is truly desparate. The only time I remember him being truly upset is when he was struggling with Sandaime and then he was facing the eternal torture of his soul, which I imagine would upset anyone. But it only makes sense that he would be this way. I mean everyone wants to kill him. I can't think of anyone besides Kimmimaro who wouldn't want to take down Oro if they had the chance or didn't need him to accomplish some goal (that goes for Sasuke and Kabuto too). If Orochimaru took every threat to his life seriously, he'd be a nervous wreck! Sasori had a special hatred for Oro probably because they were partners in Akatsuki. Oro doesn't have the most agreeable personality. They probably didn't get along well.

@ astayanax

Good job with the rankings. Except it was stated that Sasori is more powerful than Deidara. And Kabuto & Sasuke more powerful than the Akatsuki members? That's pushing it.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-11-08 at 23:19.
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Old 2006-11-09, 08:03   Link #118
astayanax
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Good job with the rankings. Except it was stated that Sasori is more powerful than Deidara.
I am awared of that statement but nothing was shown that proved it. After all, it was Deidara who took on the entire sand village on his own whereas Sasori was struggling in the one fight he had. It was Deidara who had faced the MS and survived when it is doubtful Sasori would had lasted seconds. Sasori to me, although the best puppeteer in the series was just that; a puppeteer. His 'strength' comes in the fact he can kill just about anyone in the space of a second if he catchs them offguard. Nothing wrong with it but that is a different way of fighting.

Quote:
And Kabuto & Sasuke more powerful than the Akatsuki members? That's pushing it.
Kabuto has intelligence similiar to Shiki and talent as good as Kakashi. It isn't to say that he can snap his finger and destroy Akatsuki members but he can analyse and exploit weaknesses much more than Shiki can ever will. I can easily see him defeating Sasori, Hidan or Kisame over a long fight. Sasuke is well Sasuke. Pre Timeskip he was fairly weak but now he is extremely powerful. He can move fast like Itachi (although probably not as fast), can use Chidori better than the person who uses it, have the 'haxx' eyes, and is talented enough to do things on the fly. Not to mention all of the powerful jutsus he learnt under Orochimaru.
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Old 2006-11-09, 08:39   Link #119
billbrown
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I'd say sasori has to rank real high up there, as one of the best. Yes he was killed, but it took absolutely incredible insight and counters to every one of the tricks he pulled out. It's like Sasori went into the fight armed with a flamethrower, where Sakura and the old lady played the fire truck.

Sasori is one of the few characters in Naruto where we witnessed incredible depth into what someone can do. Ask yourself, armed with no antidote and no in-depth knowledge of his powers(small knowledge is expected, he's a puppeteer, etc.) how well do you think someone like Kakashi, Kabuto or Oro would fare against Sasori? Remember you only need to get poisoned once to lose....
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Old 2006-11-09, 22:52   Link #120
Suna no tate
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My listing was only half serious. But I really have to disagree with Astayanax and his listing. Ok. Here's where I have problems. Listing the AL as number one is ok... I mean his reputation seems to precede him. Still you have to understand that if Jiraiya was evil, Kishi very well could have made him the AL leader or something. I mean I could definitely see an evil Jiraiya leading a group of 9 ninja like that. But listing the leader as number one is ok. Itachi as number 1 though?! Come on! Then you put Oro, kakashi, kabuto, and tsunade above a 4 tailed naruto! Kabuto! haha. Lets consider this. The 4 tailed naruto tangled with Oro. Oro couldn't put a dent in him. The kusinagi sword couldn't pierce that chakra shield. All oro could do was push him back. So yet you think Kabuto will find a way to pierce that chakra shield. Keep in mind that simply the chakra aura around naruto was enough to send Kabuto flying. How funny. Then you put Deidara above Naruto in the 4 tailed form too...And Sasuke. A lot of people are under the impression that Sasuke can suppress the kyubi. You have to put things in context though. One, Sasuke suppressed the kyubi in a very low state. Naruto was sort of thinking about going all kyubi. He wasn't even at the point as he was in the first fight between the two or even at the 1 tailed stage that came at the end of that fight. Sasuke managed to suppress that low level kyubi state, when the only change is the markings on his face are a bit more dramatized and his eyes change. There is no way he can suppress a 1 tail or 2 tailed form where Naruto has fully accepted Kyubi chakra. The best way to think about it is like this. If any uchiha member could suppress the kyubi's full power, then the 4th died in vain. Just the same way, if Yamato could fully suppress the kyubi's power, the 4th died in vain. But neither Sasuke nor yamato can do that. They can suppress some of it and in yamato's case with great difficulty. However if Naruto really wants to go kyubi and wants to stay that way, no one can really stop him. Anyway, all this to say, no way in hell Sasuke can handle a 4 tailed naruto. In truth, i doubt itachi could either. Neither of his super jutsus would be too helpful. I doubt amaterasu could really penetrate that intense chakra shield and even if it did, I doubt it'd still be able to destroy naruto entirely. Don't forget that at the point Naruto's healing is super amplified and Amaterasu is probably a one or 2 shot deal for Itachi. Remember the kusanagi sword is said to be able to pierce anything. Amaterasu is rumored to be able to burn through anything. We've already seen the kusanagi sword fail in that respect. And Amaterasu obviously can't burn through everything, as when itachi used it, it didn't exactly burn through several houses and the residual flames didn't exactly burn up the rest of the original house. So how about the genjutsu tsukuyomi? I doubt it'd be great either. Genjutsu forces chakra into the chakra circulatory system and gives false signals about the world. Hmm...what's naruto's chakra circulatory system like in a 4 tailed state? Must be pretty nuts. I just don't see it working well when Naruto's chakra is so wild. In addition, even if it did work, all it would do is collapse naruto's mind. In a 4 tailed state, that would be bad for itachi, and in general for everyone. Why? Well in that case, Naruto's mind would be gone, but his body technically fine. We've already seen the kyubi be opportunistic, where it takes advantages of mental lapses and weakness to have a little fun with naruto. If tsukyomi seriously weakens his mind when he's already in the 4 tailed state, the kyubi's mind which would be already active in that 4 tailed state, would be in a better position to release even more tails. You might see a 5 tailed state or a 6 tailed. I guess the better argument to state is that tsukuyomi would work on a human mind, but in the 4 tailed state, naruto is sort of not even there and its just the kyubi having fun. So tsukuyomi working on the kyubi? Doubt it.
Anyway, all that is speculation. The question to ask before you list anyone above the 4 tailed naruto is can this person find a way or does he possess a method to penetrate that chakra shield and actually do damage? Can he withstand huge shockwaves? Can he survive and fight in the presence of the pain the chakra aura causes in normal people? Oro couldn't do the first part, barely, barely survived the shockwaves with the help of 3 bishamon gates, and handled the last in a so so manner (I suspect that was the true "adverse reaction". His body seemed fine all the times before and after).
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