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Old 2006-11-09, 08:39   Link #121
billbrown
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Age: 28
I'd say sasori has to rank real high up there, as one of the best. Yes he was killed, but it took absolutely incredible insight and counters to every one of the tricks he pulled out. It's like Sasori went into the fight armed with a flamethrower, where Sakura and the old lady played the fire truck.

Sasori is one of the few characters in Naruto where we witnessed incredible depth into what someone can do. Ask yourself, armed with no antidote and no in-depth knowledge of his powers(small knowledge is expected, he's a puppeteer, etc.) how well do you think someone like Kakashi, Kabuto or Oro would fare against Sasori? Remember you only need to get poisoned once to lose....
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Old 2006-11-09, 22:52   Link #122
Suna no tate
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My listing was only half serious. But I really have to disagree with Astayanax and his listing. Ok. Here's where I have problems. Listing the AL as number one is ok... I mean his reputation seems to precede him. Still you have to understand that if Jiraiya was evil, Kishi very well could have made him the AL leader or something. I mean I could definitely see an evil Jiraiya leading a group of 9 ninja like that. But listing the leader as number one is ok. Itachi as number 1 though?! Come on! Then you put Oro, kakashi, kabuto, and tsunade above a 4 tailed naruto! Kabuto! haha. Lets consider this. The 4 tailed naruto tangled with Oro. Oro couldn't put a dent in him. The kusinagi sword couldn't pierce that chakra shield. All oro could do was push him back. So yet you think Kabuto will find a way to pierce that chakra shield. Keep in mind that simply the chakra aura around naruto was enough to send Kabuto flying. How funny. Then you put Deidara above Naruto in the 4 tailed form too...And Sasuke. A lot of people are under the impression that Sasuke can suppress the kyubi. You have to put things in context though. One, Sasuke suppressed the kyubi in a very low state. Naruto was sort of thinking about going all kyubi. He wasn't even at the point as he was in the first fight between the two or even at the 1 tailed stage that came at the end of that fight. Sasuke managed to suppress that low level kyubi state, when the only change is the markings on his face are a bit more dramatized and his eyes change. There is no way he can suppress a 1 tail or 2 tailed form where Naruto has fully accepted Kyubi chakra. The best way to think about it is like this. If any uchiha member could suppress the kyubi's full power, then the 4th died in vain. Just the same way, if Yamato could fully suppress the kyubi's power, the 4th died in vain. But neither Sasuke nor yamato can do that. They can suppress some of it and in yamato's case with great difficulty. However if Naruto really wants to go kyubi and wants to stay that way, no one can really stop him. Anyway, all this to say, no way in hell Sasuke can handle a 4 tailed naruto. In truth, i doubt itachi could either. Neither of his super jutsus would be too helpful. I doubt amaterasu could really penetrate that intense chakra shield and even if it did, I doubt it'd still be able to destroy naruto entirely. Don't forget that at the point Naruto's healing is super amplified and Amaterasu is probably a one or 2 shot deal for Itachi. Remember the kusanagi sword is said to be able to pierce anything. Amaterasu is rumored to be able to burn through anything. We've already seen the kusanagi sword fail in that respect. And Amaterasu obviously can't burn through everything, as when itachi used it, it didn't exactly burn through several houses and the residual flames didn't exactly burn up the rest of the original house. So how about the genjutsu tsukuyomi? I doubt it'd be great either. Genjutsu forces chakra into the chakra circulatory system and gives false signals about the world. Hmm...what's naruto's chakra circulatory system like in a 4 tailed state? Must be pretty nuts. I just don't see it working well when Naruto's chakra is so wild. In addition, even if it did work, all it would do is collapse naruto's mind. In a 4 tailed state, that would be bad for itachi, and in general for everyone. Why? Well in that case, Naruto's mind would be gone, but his body technically fine. We've already seen the kyubi be opportunistic, where it takes advantages of mental lapses and weakness to have a little fun with naruto. If tsukyomi seriously weakens his mind when he's already in the 4 tailed state, the kyubi's mind which would be already active in that 4 tailed state, would be in a better position to release even more tails. You might see a 5 tailed state or a 6 tailed. I guess the better argument to state is that tsukuyomi would work on a human mind, but in the 4 tailed state, naruto is sort of not even there and its just the kyubi having fun. So tsukuyomi working on the kyubi? Doubt it.
Anyway, all that is speculation. The question to ask before you list anyone above the 4 tailed naruto is can this person find a way or does he possess a method to penetrate that chakra shield and actually do damage? Can he withstand huge shockwaves? Can he survive and fight in the presence of the pain the chakra aura causes in normal people? Oro couldn't do the first part, barely, barely survived the shockwaves with the help of 3 bishamon gates, and handled the last in a so so manner (I suspect that was the true "adverse reaction". His body seemed fine all the times before and after).
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Old 2006-11-09, 23:08   Link #123
MobiuS
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Kabuto may or may not be better than 4tails but he is a genius and he has an arsenal of tricks to hurt your body. May not exactly be combat jutsus but hes abusive with them. Chakra scalpel? Hmm?

Tsunade hmm? All he needs to do is lay a hand on Naruto's neck and he will cut neck muscles. Bye bye s0n.
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Old 2006-11-09, 23:36   Link #124
Sabaku Kyu
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4-tailed Naruto is very powerful. The fact that he was able to so seriously injure Jiraiya is alone proof of his strength. However since Jiraiya was able to survive the encounter that indicates one of two possibilites. Either Jiraiya was able to subdue 4-tailed Naruto or there's a time limit to Naruto's tailed state. Either one shows a weakness and vulnerability on Naruto's part. I agree that a 4-tailed Naruto might defeat the likes of Sasuke, Kabuto and perhaps even Kakashi, but he can't go up against someone of Sanin level yet.

Orochimaru wasn't capable of using his full power against Naruto in their battle because his body was starting to reject him. Mostly, he was just playing with him and testing him. He didn't begin to take the fight seriously until Naruto used the chakra ball against him. We have yet to see 4-tailed Naruto fight a serious Orochimaru at full power.

As far as 4-tails against Itachi. Well, I think he would give Itachi a lot of trouble but Itachi probably could still defeat him. Naruto's attacks in this state are powerful but not that fast and easily avoided. That chakra ball is deadly, but it can also be easily avoided since it travels in a straight path. Oro for whatever reason, wasted time watching Naruto gather chakra and then summoned the Rashoumon Gates. Itachi could just perform a Doton jutsu and tunnel out the way underground or better yet perform a jutsu like Amatersu while Naruto is gathering the chakra. And I think it is too hasty to jump to the conclusion that the chakra shield could guard against Amatersu because the Kusanagi couldn't pierce it. The flames of Amatersu are as hot as the sun and burn for seven days. They can't be extinguished. I think even 4-tailed Naruto would be KO'ed if that hit him, because even if he survived the initial hit, the flames would keep burning and eventually the chakra shield will give out. Given his extremely unstable mental condition while 4-tailed, Naruto might not be susceptible to MS, since pain apparently has no meaning for him and he doesn't have any fears or sentimental attachments to exploit in this state. Still that is a big IF seeing as how Tsukuyomi is the most powerful genjutsu known in the series.
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Old 2006-11-10, 01:04   Link #125
Suna no tate
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Well Jiraiya seems to have mastered a lot of sealing techniqes. He was the one who gave kakashi the special seal to use if Naruto went out of control. I suppose that's probably how he got around it. Yet he himself said he almost died so using that seal must not have been easy at that 4 tail stage!

Body rejection? Well so Orochimaru says. I personally think this "body rejection" was a response to the kyubi's poisonous chakra. It never happened in the sandaime fight, where Oro's previous body was about the same age as the body he's using now (2.5-2.8 years old). Its easy to figure this out. He can switch only every 3 years. During the fight he had a body. After the fight he was immediately ready to steal sasuke's body but sasuke didn't come on time. So roughly about 2.5 to 2.7 years old was his body during the fight with the 3rd hokage. But no body rejection problems then.


That chakra ball was indeed deadly. Don't forget though the range was incredible! I doubt its easy to avoid. It left quite a crater! But his other attacks, like shockwaves were still pretty amazing and had some speed on them! About amaterasu, in truth we don't know enough about the jutsu. Again remember the flames are rumored to be as hot as the sun, yet the residual flames left by it didn't exactly continue to burn that house to a crisp in an instant. As I remember it, the residual flames just sort of sat there burning. The initial amaterasu jutsu burned through the frog stomach, and the wall, but didn't burn through anything else. So maybe the description is just an exaggeration. After all, Gaara's sand defense was initially described as inpenetrable, yet Lee and Gai could just punch right through it with their fists. Clearly its not impenetrable; perhaps the same is true of amaterasu. I just don't think that chakra shield gets enough credit. You said something about the chakra shield giving out? How and why? The shield is just kyubi chakra and no more. The kyubi has near infinite chakra. Thats why I don't see Amaterasu penetrating it. In fact, thats why I don't see anything penetrating it. As for tsukuyomi, you raise a good point, but I'd like to add that at the 4 tailed state, the mind controlling Naruto's body and the chakra shield is the kyubi itself. Look at the image below. The kyubi's in control. If tsukuyomi were used, there'd be no mind for it to work on. Or rather, Itachi might just find himself face to face with an enraged kyubi he can't manipulate and for 72 hours! Don't bother trying to suppress it!

Whose mind is running the show?
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6...p293p05fa4.png
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Old 2006-11-10, 09:45   Link #126
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Well Jiraiya seems to have mastered a lot of sealing techniqes. He was the one who gave kakashi the special seal to use if Naruto went out of control. I suppose that's probably how he got around it. Yet he himself said he almost died so using that seal must not have been easy at that 4 tail stage!
Yeah, but we don't know if Jiraiya used the seal to subdue Naruto during the battle or he created the seal afterwards to prevent future attacks. Knowing Jiraiya he probably anticipated problems with the Kyuubi chakra and created the seal beforehand. Still, remember that Jiraiya was also put in a position where he could use his full strength because he couldn't risk killing or seriously injuring Naruto.

Quote:
Body rejection? Well so Orochimaru says. I personally think this "body rejection" was a response to the kyubi's poisonous chakra. It never happened in the sandaime fight, where Oro's previous body was about the same age as the body he's using now (2.5-2.8 years old). Its easy to figure this out. He can switch only every 3 years. During the fight he had a body. After the fight he was immediately ready to steal sasuke's body but sasuke didn't come on time. So roughly about 2.5 to 2.7 years old was his body during the fight with the 3rd hokage. But no body rejection problems then.
Incorrect. Orochimaru didn't plan on entering Sasuke's body immediately. He was going to possess his body after Sasuke had grown to his liking . This was stated in his battle with Sandaime. After having his arms sealed, Oro was forced to change bodies, but his previous body hadn't worn out. Oro's body rejecting him didn't have anything to do with coming in contact with the Kyuubi's chakra. Both Kabuto and Oro were anticipating the possibility of this happening before the fight began.


Quote:
That chakra ball was indeed deadly. Don't forget though the range was incredible! I doubt its easy to avoid. It left quite a crater! But his other attacks, like shockwaves were still pretty amazing and had some speed on them! About amaterasu, in truth we don't know enough about the jutsu. Again remember the flames are rumored to be as hot as the sun, yet the residual flames left by it didn't exactly continue to burn that house to a crisp in an instant. As I remember it, the residual flames just sort of sat there burning. The initial amaterasu jutsu burned through the frog stomach, and the wall, but didn't burn through anything else. So maybe the description is just an exaggeration.
If Oro could avoid those shockwaves, then I imagine Itachi could as well. And like I said, the chakra ball takes a long time to create, Itachi could easily launch an instant attack like Amaterasu while he was gathering the chakra. Also, a few things about Amaterasu. The flames don't spread like the flames of a normal fire. They seem to burn within a contained area so you wouldn't expect it to burn the entire house instantly. Second, what we saw were the residual flames which might lack the intensity of the unseen full force attack. Third, the flames burned through the stomach of a rock frog which breathes fire (and this is not like Katon jutsu, since frogs can't form hand seals. The fire literally passes through the frog's body) This means that Amaterasu was able to burn through something that is supposed to be essentially fire proof. So maybe the claim about flames being hot as the sun is exaggerated, but still Amaterasu is not an attack that can be dismissed so easily.
Quote:
After all, Gaara's sand defense was initially described as inpenetrable, yet Lee and Gai could just punch right through it with their fists. Clearly its not impenetrable; perhaps the same is true of amaterasu.
By that same logic, I can assume that the Kyuubi chakra is not impenetrable as well. Besides, when they were talking about Gaara's sand being impenetrable, they weren't talking about his normal sand. They were talking about his normal sand combined with the armor of sand which was pretty much impenetrable, even Lee with 5 gates open couldn't completely shatter it, though Sasuke's chidori could pierce it. Still, this is just further evidence that no defense is full proof.

Quote:
I just don't think that chakra shield gets enough credit. You said something about the chakra shield giving out? How and why? The shield is just kyubi chakra and no more. The kyubi has near infinite chakra. Thats why I don't see Amaterasu penetrating it. In fact, thats why I don't see anything penetrating it. As for tsukuyomi, you raise a good point, but I'd like to add that at the 4 tailed state, the mind controlling Naruto's body and the chakra shield is the kyubi itself. Look at the image below. The kyubi's in control. If tsukuyomi were used, there'd be no mind for it to work on. Or rather, Itachi might just find himself face to face with an enraged kyubi he can't manipulate and for 72 hours! Don't bother trying to suppress it!
The Kyuubi has infinite chakra, but Naruto can only stay in the 4-tailed state for so long or else the damage to his body will kill him. Assume that he can stay in the 4-tailed state for a couple hours, max (though it's probably actually closer to 20 to 30 min). If Amaterasu hits him during this time, the Kyuubi chakra may protect him from dying for the time being but the residual flames will continue to burn on his body. Eventually when Naruto transforms back into his normal state, he will immediately be consumed by the flames.

Quote:
Whose mind is running the show?
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6...p293p05fa4.png
I didn't see what image you were trying to post, but I don't even consider surpressing the Kyuubi an option for Itachi. So far, this seems to be a unique ability of Sasuke's and he has only shown that he can prevent the demon chakra from reaching Naruto, not that he can reverse the transformation.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-11-10 at 10:10.
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Old 2006-11-10, 10:32   Link #127
Suna no tate
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I must have missed that statement during the sandaime fight. But it doesn't have anything to do with the main point which was the body he's using today was about the same age as the body he used in that fight, yet there were no problems. Still I don't know how you can say the poisonous kyubi chakra wouldn't affect Kabuto and Orochimaru, when it so clearly was damaging to Sakura, Yamato, and Sai. You can say that they anticipated the problem, but its not illogical to assume that the kyubi chakra may have accelerated it. After all Oro got the closest to it of them all.

As for amaterasu, remember the description is flames that burn hotter than the sun for 7 days and 7 nights. When itachi used it on the wall, it burned a hole in it and left some residual flames. It just seems weird to me that the residual flames just sort of sat there. Fire spreads. Thats what it does. Even if the residual flames were 1/100th of the same temp as the original flame, it should still burn up that house pretty quickly. Anyway, I guess right now it just boils down to whether or not you think it can penetrate that chakra shield. I for some reason see Itachi using it and being shocked that his attack was entirely swallowed up by chakra. You see it actually doing something. So there's really not much to argue.

The picture was a good one showing who's really in control of the 4 tail stage. The point I was trying to make is that at that stage you're really fighting the kyubi and more than likely your genjutsu (even tsukuyomi) will not work at all.
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Old 2006-11-10, 11:26   Link #128
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I must have missed that statement during the sandaime fight. But it doesn't have anything to do with the main point which was the body he's using today was about the same age as the body he used in that fight, yet there were no problems. Still I don't know how you can say the poisonous kyubi chakra wouldn't affect Kabuto and Orochimaru, when it so clearly was damaging to Sakura, Yamato, and Sai. You can say that they anticipated the problem, but its not illogical to assume that the kyubi chakra may have accelerated it. After all Oro got the closest to it of them all.
The whole basis of your argument was that you assumed that Oro's body was at least 2.5 years old because he planned to immediately take Sasuke's body. But this wasn't the case, so we don't know how old the body was.

Sakura was the only one who was poisoned by the Kyuubi chakra since she was the only one who was struck by the 4-tailed Naruto. Mere exposure to the Kyuubi's chakra apparently is uncomfortable according to Sai, but you have to be struck for any real damage to be done. Orochimaru evaded or blocked all of 4-tailed Naruto's attacks except when he was 'cut in half' by Naruto. It's not made at all clear, but I'd be willing to bet that this was a bunshin of some sort and not the real Orochimaru. It could be that the strain of fighting at such a high level caused his body to start rejecting him sooner though. But if the Kyuubi chakra was causing Oro' s body to reject him, Oro or Kabuto would've said something about it.

Quote:
As for amaterasu, remember the description is flames that burn hotter than the sun for 7 days and 7 nights. When itachi used it on the wall, it burned a hole in it and left some residual flames. It just seems weird to me that the residual flames just sort of sat there. Fire spreads. Thats what it does. Even if the residual flames were 1/100th of the same temp as the original flame, it should still burn up that house pretty quickly. Anyway, I guess right now it just boils down to whether or not you think it can penetrate that chakra shield. I for some reason see Itachi using it and being shocked that his attack was entirely swallowed up by chakra. You see it actually doing something. So there's really not much to argue.
You can't judge Amaterasu by the properties of normal fire, I mean c'mon, the flames are black.. that should be an indication that it's not ordinary fire you're dealing with. So even though you would expect a normal fire with that kind of heat to burn through a building in a matter of seconds, Amaterasu wouldn't necessarily do the same.

Quote:
The picture was a good one showing who's really in control of the 4 tail stage. The point I was trying to make is that at that stage you're really fighting the kyubi and more than likely your genjutsu (even tsukuyomi) will not work at all.
Oh yeah. No doubt the Kyuubi's in control when Naruto goes 4-tailed. Still, remember that even in this form the Kyuubi is still subject to some of the weaknesses of Naruto's body, he's not at full power. Other than that, I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't be highly resistant if not invulnerable to Tsukuyomi.
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Old 2006-11-10, 12:13   Link #129
astayanax
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Amaterasu is a supernatural (and arguably demonic) flame.

- It doesn't need oxygen to burn
- It doesn't need substance (wood, wall, etc) to burn
- It is black
- It generates NO heat (See how close Naruto was to the flames when Jiraiya warned him)
- It doesn't spread (the description of Amaterasu is everything in the eyesight of the MS user is annihilated instantly)

This was the main reason why Itachi waited until he was against the Wall to use Amaterasu else the level of destruction and the chakra required to do it would have been MUCH larger.

I put 4 tailed Naruto so low because he had shown nothing that could defeat people like Deidara, Orochimaru or even Kabuto/Sasuke/MS Kakashi. Sure he can kill any of these guys in 1 move, but as seen; he fights fairly retardedly and it was only a matter of time where his body can't keep up with the strain and it is game over. In the confrontation with Orochimaru, Naruto would had ended up losing that battle. He only 'won' (if you want to call it that) due to the problems Orochimaru was having with his body. As for Kabuto, he got hit with a move best described as an atomic bomb, yet he was only slightly peeved at getting hit. MS Kakashi speaks for himself.

Tsukuyomi is also a supernatural (argubaly demonic) genjutsu that works a bit differently to normal genjutsus. Even if it doesnt work on Naruto, it will allow Itachi to have full control over Naruto's body thus wresting control away from Kyuubi. There is little Kyuubi could do when Itachi will have control of time. Kyuubi out is another thing; but then this won't be Naruto that Itachi would be against now.
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Old 2006-11-10, 14:00   Link #130
Rachy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
Oh yeah. No doubt the Kyuubi's in control when Naruto goes 4-tailed. Still, remember that even in this form the Kyuubi is still subject to some of the weaknesses of Naruto's body, he's not at full power. Other than that, I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't be highly resistant if not invulnerable to Tsukuyomi.
Kyuubi isn't in control, neither Naruto or Kyuubi is. It just goes on destructive impulse.
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Old 2006-11-10, 22:12   Link #131
Suna no tate
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I say that the body was about 2.5 years old following this logic. When he fought the 3rd, he had his arms sealed. Then he flees and puts in the orders for Sasuke to be captured or brought to him. This was very soon after the battle. I'd say about 2 weeks to a month. But I think saying half a year would be way to much time. Anyway, lets say its a month after the battle with sandaime the sasuke retrieval arc begins. The thing is Oro at that point was able to switch. We know this because 1)he actually switched with that guy who killed all the other captive prisoners and 2) he wanted to switch with Sasuke's body as soon as he got there because his arms were in such bad shape*. We know that Oro can only switch bodies 1 every 3 years. So the fact that he actually did switch places the body he used against Sandaime at about 2.5 years old. To reiterate so its clear, Oro switched bodies with that guy out of necessity. The fact that he actually switched shows that his previous body was about 2.5 years old since he can only switch once at about the end of every 3 years.

About amaterasu, I will concede all the points to astayanax and sukabu kyu. But I will say this. Amaterasu: demon chakra fire. 4 tailed kyubi: demon chakra shield. To me, it seems a pretty even match up but in truth nobody knows until it actually happens. At this point, can we agree its mostly a matter of opinion?

*this shows Oro doesn't really have as great an interest in training Sasuke. He was basically just going to steal his body as soon as he arrived. However things didn't go his way and he had to switch early. Thus he's training Sasuke now, probably just to keep him [sasuke] happy and contented, amongst other reasons.
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Old 2007-02-15, 11:50   Link #132
monataru
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pretty sure itachi didn't kill the uchiha's

yup if u wana know y just ask me k!!!!!!!!
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