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Old 2006-11-06, 12:30   Link #101
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
Ah, sorry, I wasn't being specific enough. I know that the queen theory is wrong, what I was wondering is what Takano and her grandfather believe about the queen theory. Her grandfather noted that if a villager left and started developing symptoms, that the symptoms would go away as soon as s/he talked with the current queen carrier. Is this a part of Takano's theory, or did her grandfather discard this belief from the queen theory before his death?
this is difficult to determine how serious both takano believe in this theory (they are mainly focalised on the insane "parasites are the human mind" one).
According the pieces, it appears that Takano believes in it (talking about the queen, though it is to herself). so it is possible it wasn't discarded from late takano. (this is pure speculation)


Quote:
Has Rika never tried to prevent the first the Watanagashi murder/disappearance? I would think that Rika would think "Maybe if I prevent the first Watanagashi incident, I'll stop all the incidents, and my parents won't become victims, even if it doesn't prevent me from dying", and give it a try in at least one reboot. The the first incident would be the easiest one to both understand and to prevent, and if she (unknowingly) prevented Takano from acquiring the first live L5 test subject, things would go a lot differently, and she'd know that she was onto something, so I guess she never tried; I wonder why. I guess she believes that the Watanagashi incidents are just unconnected coincidences?
there is a huge problem with rika : her child status.
At the current time, she isn't really taken seriously, so imagine this situation 4 years before, this would be hard.
also, i don't think rika has the information (when exactly) to prevent it. also, she doesn't have the physical ability to do so. and finally, the villagers wouldn't bother to prevent it : how would be possible for rika to convince any villager to prevent some crazy guys to kill the dam manager, one of the top hated people in hinamizawa?
also, due to her age, i wouldn't possible that ooishi or his men could believe her (there weren't any incident before, and even when every villager has a motive to kill the dam manager, it would be troublesome to believe that, completely out of the blue, and especially from a little girl)

also, we don't know how many years rika could reboot the very first time (although it was said she could come back even before akasaka comes for the first time in hinamizawa) and the time lost between each reboot.

also, like you said : it is possible that rika wouldn't connect all the incidents between them.
1) the first incident happen because of 6 random culprits.
2) for satoko's parents, everything appears to be an accident.
3) Furede Priest is dead by a mysterious illness, the mother is presumbly dead of suicide (how would someone imagine it was covered by the goverment? the police didn't noticed any suspect thing, except the impossibility to name the disease)

so, there is a really small chance for her to understand that even the first murder would permit the others.

Quote:
Seemingly unimportant actions that Rika takes could indirectly lead to a series of events that causes important changes down the road. For instance, in one reboot Rika could bump into a woman carrying a shopping bag, causing the bag to drop and a jar to break. The woman has to go back to the grocery store to buy another jar, which causes her to be late for something, which causes A, which causes B, which causes C, and so on, ultimately resulting in Ooishi asking Keiichi about Tomitake, leading to Keiichi going crazy. In other reboots, she doesn't bump into the woman, so Keiichi never learns about that Watanagashi incidents early enough to trigger his syndrome.
unfortunately, we can theorycraft an infinite time with such parameters.
though, there is facts that are avoided by pure/some luck. i'm referring to KJ post:
-As luck would have it, Akasaka lives in this world. However, his wife still dies.
3. In Himatsubushi what change happened to prevent Akasaka from dying?
=> Numerous factors, including luck. It isn't clearly stated, except that Rika was able to save him from dying by leading him away from the hospital, and that his chances of survival was very low to begin with.

Satoko's uncle is also a random factor itself : sometimes he comes back to hinamizawa, sometimes he doesn't.

your example is a bit extreme, but realisable. however, what would rika do to prevent keiichi going with rena to the trash site? there isn't a lot involvement from her for such trivial things which lead, impendingly to some paranoia for any people.

in conclusion, acting with such a strict and identical pattern won't always prevent an event X, to happen a Y time, at Z world.

Quote:
And an unimportant question (but I'm curious): one of the Pieces reveals that the syndrome researchers intend to trepan Rika so that they can get a sample of her cranial fluid. Does the game ever show the hole in Rika's head?
you mean a CG of her who would show rika hospitalized? i don't think so.
you see, the number of different CG are really really poor for each character.
You will NEVER see rena with her trademark cleaver in game. however, just like a novel (wait a min.. it's a novel ! duh ), it is described very well.
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Old 2006-11-06, 13:32   Link #102
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
If i recall right, rika said that she once tried to survive by herself and she hide in the woods. ironically, this was the time she survived the longest period ever. (i don't remember how many hours...)
Well, she lived a little bit into July. Quoting from the game:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Furude Rika
I'm never going to try and hide in the woods again in order to escape my death from the certain someone. ...I tried it once, and for all the suffering and toils that I did in the woods, I still ended up dead the same way. Living in the woods all by myself is not as easy as it seems. I think I was able to live a little past July that time. ...That was my longest survival record.

And for further interest, Rika's most worst life that she lived through was the one in which Keiichi doesn't come to Hinamizawa. In the past hundred years of her life, there were once or twice in which that happened. According to Rika, those were the most boring days that she had ever lived, and considers that to be a loss from the start.

Last edited by kj1980; 2006-11-06 at 13:57.
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Old 2006-11-06, 13:45   Link #103
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yes, this was that quote ^^ (i couldn't remember the exact words or the original poster... i tried to search all of sushi's post and yours, but this was really a pain without any solid key search and the huge amount you have done )

if rika was able to do something so extreme, it would be really huge to know each plan of "survival" she tried in most worlds XD

EDIT : oh yeah, that was also another important reboot information (sheesh, how could i forget that? XD).

rika had a good reasoning here : how would be hinamizawa without THE K? ~~ (even mion would be really boring, depleting her ideas of fun with the long run without the smashing boy around XD)

really, the game gives some small details which can answers a lot... no wonder why people with only anime/manga knowledge are really limited in their brainstorming

Last edited by Klashikari; 2006-11-06 at 14:12.
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Old 2006-11-09, 02:47   Link #104
Khym Chanur
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
there is a huge problem with rika : her child status.
At the current time, she isn't really taken seriously, so imagine this situation 4 years before, this would be hard.

...

also, due to her age, i wouldn't possible that ooishi or his men could believe her
She could have memorized some big news events and when they happen, then make predictions during the next reboot. Like send a letter to someone saying "On [some date] [some politician] will be assassinated. If you want to stay alive, on [this date] you must do [X]." Or she could make predictions to some adult villagers who believes that she's Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation to get him to really believe, then send them out on "holy missions". And if the adults needed money, she could memorize the outcomes of various sporting events, and they could gamble on them to make money.

I guess that she became fatalistic about everything before something like occurred to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
also, i don't think rika has the information (when exactly) to prevent it.
She could have hid out at the damn site to spy on them and figure out what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
and finally, the villagers wouldn't bother to prevent it : how would be possible for rika to convince any villager to prevent some crazy guys to kill the dam manager, one of the top hated people in hinamizawa?
She could have told some villagers, speaking as Oyashiro-sama, to keep the manager away from the dam site on the night of Watanagashi. I'm sure she could have come up with some religion based reason for them to do so without revealing she was doing it to save his life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
also, we don't know how many years rika could reboot the very first time (although it was said she could come back even before akasaka comes for the first time in hinamizawa) and the time lost between each reboot.
This might just be my impression, but in Himatsubushi-hen, when Rika predicts to Akasaka the Watanagashi incidents, plus her own death, she already seems fatalistic and jaded, so my guess is that a significant number of reboots brought her back at least five years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
also, like you said : it is possible that rika wouldn't connect all the incidents between them.
There isn't any reason for her to logically connect them together, but most of the villagers believe that it's due to a curse, and Rika knows firsthand that the supernatural really exists. So I would think that, before she'd rebooted so many times that she'd become fatalistic and jaded, that she'd think "Maybe there is a curse, and if there is a curse, maybe I can stop it by stopping the first incident". Before she became so fatalistic, she must have been brainstorming and coming up with all sorts of outlandish ideas to try to keep both herself and her parents alive. Or maybe she became fatalistic after only a few reboots, and never did any brainstorming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
though, there is facts that are avoided by pure/some luck. i'm referring to KJ post:
-As luck would have it, Akasaka lives in this world. However, his wife still dies.
3. In Himatsubushi what change happened to prevent Akasaka from dying?
=> Numerous factors, including luck. It isn't clearly stated, except that Rika was able to save him from dying by leading him away from the hospital, and that his chances of survival was very low to begin with.
Huh, I thought that Rika had cut the telephone lines at the hospital and at the phone booth to keep Akasaka in the dark for a little while longer about his wife's death, to put off his heartbreak for a little bit longer. Was he usually assassinated by the Yamainu while he stayed in the hospital or something?

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Satoko's uncle is also a random factor itself : sometimes he comes back to hinamizawa, sometimes he doesn't.
I was thinking along the lines of this poem:
Quote:
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
And also along the lines of the butterfly effect:

Quote:
The phrase refers to the idea that a butterfly's wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that ultimately cause a tornado to appear (or, for that matter, prevent a tornado from appearing). The flapping wing represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale phenomena. Had the butterfly not flapped its wings, the trajectory of the system might have been vastly different.
My theory is that little things that Rika does differently in each reboot can snowball into much large changes later on, snowballing changes that Rika might not be aware of. The snowballing changes probably wouldn't have much effect outside of the village, but Satoko's uncle does have some connections to the village, so any "horseshoe nails" that Rika changes could be what tips the scales in her uncle deciding whether or not to come back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980 View Post
And for further interest, Rika's most worst life that she lived through was the one in which Keiichi doesn't come to Hinamizawa.
It could be what tipped the scales with regards to Keiichi's dad's decision to move to Hinamizawa was seeing the two long-haired girls playing in the field, and a "horseshoe nail" Rika sometimes affected would snowball into those girls not playing in the field on that particular day.

Quote:
you mean a CG of her who would show rika hospitalized? i don't think so.
you see, the number of different CG are really really poor for each character.
You will NEVER see rena with her trademark cleaver in game. however, just like a novel (wait a min.. it's a novel ! duh ), it is described very well.
Not necessarily her hospitalization, but Keiichi patting her on the head and feeling the hole in her skull underneath her scalp, and then Rika explaining about the trepenation, and maybe evening pulling her hair aside to show were the hole was, or something like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980 View Post
New pieces: Piece #15, Piece #32, Piece #08, and Piece #25 posted.
Huh, so I guess what decided Takano on instigating the Great Disaster was being told that the village was to be cured of the parasite secretly, without anyone finding out about the greatness of her grandfather. Hmmm, but the Hinamizawa Syndrome was still secret after the Disaster, and if the government had continued its research into developing a bioweapon based on the parasite, the Syndrome and her grandfather's work would still have remained a secret. Had she not had any concrete plans on how the brilliance of her grandfather would be revealed to the world, and once she realized that it would never happen, she finally snapped?

Also, I've been wondering why, in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, the notebook that Takano gave to Rena contained some of the truth (there being a parasite that changed people's behavior), while all of the other notebooks she handed out to other people (and were gathered by the Sonozakis) contained none of the truth. Was she hoping that Rena would give it to the police, so that at least a little bit of the truth her grandfather uncovered would be in the hands of officials, while putting in stuff about aliens and Sonozaki conspiracies into Rena's notebook, and completely ludicrous stuff into the other notebooks, so that the government wouldn't notice that she'd leaked top secret info?
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Old 2006-11-09, 11:37   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
She could have memorized some big news events and when they happen, then make predictions during the next reboot. Like send a letter to someone saying "On [some date] [some politician] will be assassinated. If you want to stay alive, on [this date] you must do [X]." Or she could make predictions to some adult villagers who believes that she's Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation to get him to really believe, then send them out on "holy missions". And if the adults needed money, she could memorize the outcomes of various sporting events, and they could gamble on them to make money.

I guess that she became fatalistic about everything before something like occurred to her.
like said previously, some events don't always happen.
also, it seems there isn't a lot of media available in hinamizawa.
Rika doesn't have few to none important information to begin with.


Quote:
She could have hid out at the damn site to spy on them and figure out what happened.
this is impossible : she is the miko of the village, and the murder happen during the watanagashi festival.
so, she is stuck with the festival.



Quote:
She could have told some villagers, speaking as Oyashiro-sama, to keep the manager away from the dam site on the night of Watanagashi. I'm sure she could have come up with some religion based reason for them to do so without revealing she was doing it to save his life.
this is one of the most obvious actions. however, though she is the symbol of oyashiro-sama reincarnation/messenger, she still isn't taken seriously due her age. also, it is probable that they would simply think she is abusing her position, or she misunderstood oyashiro-sama words. The priest was already taken apart, because of his neutrality.


Quote:
This might just be my impression, but in Himatsubushi-hen, when Rika predicts to Akasaka the Watanagashi incidents, plus her own death, she already seems fatalistic and jaded, so my guess is that a significant number of reboots brought her back at least five years.
we won't really know, she is probably fed up about she couldn't make the adults reasoning correctly (it is assumed that she already tried to settle things between the gosanke and the dam project case, but her efforts with her father were absolutely rejected into oblivion.


Quote:
There isn't any reason for her to logically connect them together, but most of the villagers believe that it's due to a curse, and Rika knows firsthand that the supernatural really exists. So I would think that, before she'd rebooted so many times that she'd become fatalistic and jaded, that she'd think "Maybe there is a curse, and if there is a curse, maybe I can stop it by stopping the first incident". Before she became so fatalistic, she must have been brainstorming and coming up with all sorts of outlandish ideas to try to keep both herself and her parents alive. Or maybe she became fatalistic after only a few reboots, and never did any brainstorming.
i disagree here : she knows perfectly there is a culprit behind most events, though she doesn't really know if each of theses are related or not (some accidents are taken as "accidents" )

since she knows hanyuu, there is no reason why she would think there is a curse, while hanyuu is simply a "ultimate moe-kaii-sweet" spirit, with ONLY the ability to talk, follow, reboot, keeping the memories. so, she knows the curse about oyashiro-sama doesn't exist, since oyashiro-sama itself isn't harmful at all.

so, except if she knows there is something (the pathogen) behind the first incident, there is no reason for her to think there is something behind the murder, or someone is taking the advantage of this incident, with the houjou case.

the only thing she knows : one of her friends will going berserk, and she will die around june 1983 (she doesn't know anything about the disaster, also, she doesn't know the truth behind each previous event, since every incidents are apparently disconnected from each other.)

1) workers are killing the dam manager : no obvious reason at all
2) houjou case : accident (the only witness : satoko, she could have some doubt of satoko, with irie's help)
3) furude case : illness and suicide (she could be suspicious about her father, nothing else)
4) houjou aunt case : satoshi as the killer, vanishing from hinamizawa after his crime.

as you can see, since she doesn't know the cause of the incidents, there is no possibility for her to connect them, except with the "madness" for the 1) 2) and 4).

also, she doesn't know what would be useful for the cultprit for killing rika.


she has really no capital information at all (except the pathogen, that's it.)


Quote:
Huh, I thought that Rika had cut the telephone lines at the hospital and at the phone booth to keep Akasaka in the dark for a little while longer about his wife's death, to put off his heartbreak for a little bit longer. Was he usually assassinated by the Yamainu while he stayed in the hospital or something?
it is possible that the anime showed only the "prevention of akasaka's xadness". it is assumed that there is a very high chance for akasaka to die while he is at the hospital (there is no clue if it was the yamainu or the sonozaki. but it seems it is the yamainu)


Quote:
I was thinking along the lines of this poem:


And also along the lines of the butterfly effect:



My theory is that little things that Rika does differently in each reboot can snowball into much large changes later on, snowballing changes that Rika might not be aware of. The snowballing changes probably wouldn't have much effect outside of the village, but Satoko's uncle does have some connections to the village, so any "horseshoe nails" that Rika changes could be what tips the scales in her uncle deciding whether or not to come back.
this is going a bit wild with theories, but i really can't see any possibility of "controlling" all theses facts with such trivial unrelated.
sure it could be possible for some abstract theories, but something like a "make your own adventure" story, basing of randomness of the real life, huh...

this should be really huge that rika could prevent anything happening with X/Y/Z actions, since she already experimented enough with her reboot (so if she really has a power around this, she would already control some factors already, wich isn't the case)

Quote:
Not necessarily her hospitalization, but Keiichi patting her on the head and feeling the hole in her skull underneath her scalp, and then Rika explaining about the trepenation, and maybe evening pulling her hair aside to show were the hole was, or something like that.
hum... the trepanation hole shouldn't be really large.
also, they were trying to extract some spinal fluid, so obviously around the back of the skull.
It's already hard to feel such hole with a dense hairy head, but if you add that keiichi pat the top/front head, and the hole is at the back, well...


Quote:
Huh, so I guess what decided Takano on instigating the Great Disaster was being told that the village was to be cured of the parasite secretly, without anyone finding out about the greatness of her grandfather. Hmmm, but the Hinamizawa Syndrome was still secret after the Disaster, and if the government had continued its research into developing a bioweapon based on the parasite, the Syndrome and her grandfather's work would still have remained a secret. Had she not had any concrete plans on how the brilliance of her grandfather would be revealed to the world, and once she realized that it would never happen, she finally snapped?
the hinamizawa syndrome was secret to the public, true.
but not for the government. Takano wants to eradicate the village as a measure taken seriously by the goverment (the "god" thing).

She wanted to reveal her grandfather's greatness by developping the whole mystery behind the syndrome, and also putting forcefully in it the fact the human mind was mainly composed of parasites. (so, she needed data about the syndrome etc)

but as you could read in the recent tips, the alphabet project was aborted, except the "cure" part of the initial project.

So she wouldn't be able to provide an excellent bioweapon since the government isn't interested with it anymore.

the only possibility for her, to fulfill all of her objective is to "prove" the theories and deal a huge event in history => the syndrome is totally hazardous => disaster => takano happy.
Quote:
Also, I've been wondering why, in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, the notebook that Takano gave to Rena contained some of the truth (there being a parasite that changed people's behavior), while all of the other notebooks she handed out to other people (and were gathered by the Sonozakis) contained none of the truth. Was she hoping that Rena would give it to the police, so that at least a little bit of the truth her grandfather uncovered would be in the hands of officials, while putting in stuff about aliens and Sonozaki conspiracies into Rena's notebook, and completely ludicrous stuff into the other notebooks, so that the government wouldn't notice that she'd leaked top secret info?
simple : she collected every wild theories, solid or not, to be able to manipulate a "random victim" around rika's party (you can take is as the RULE X). so she has most theories which could trigger the "rule X" victim paranoia. (she didn't need that for keiichi, she use her scrapbook for shion and rena)
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Old 2006-11-09, 12:44   Link #106
kj1980
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Quote:
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
But in Takano's perspective:

Quote:
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
Buy a F-22 Raptor instead.
Battle won.
You are forgetting that from the start, it's

Takano>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(unscalable wall)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rika and her friends.

Takano has the resources, the money, the political backing, and the brains of a mad scientist versus just a group of kids whose main strength is their friendship. A trivial change is not going to make a big difference. Like Rika said, it takes a miracle to overcome these things that reinforces the Rules X, Y, and Z.
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Old 2006-11-10, 06:27   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
this should be really huge that rika could prevent anything happening with X/Y/Z actions, since she already experimented enough with her reboot (so if she really has a power around this, she would already control some factors already, wich isn't the case)
Oh no, that isn't true. In loop 1 we see her deliberately experiment. After Keeichi grabs the bat she warns him to keep it handy. This tells us something about the loop before the first one we got to see. Keiichi was a murder victim, and he let go of the bat. So at a guess in Loop 0, bumbling irresponsible Oishi still recruits Keiichi to be his spy, but on that occasion, instead of telling Keiichi to keep the bat handy, Rika told K1 why Satoshi freaked. Ashamed, K1 leaves the bat the school, and his escalating paranoia tones down to a dull roar. Therefore he lets Rena in with the supper she made and they talk while eating. Then she says something...about the clinic perhaps? And maybe instead of getting diverted into suspicion of Mion and Rena, he goes out to check out the clinic and gets killed there.

Now some of the variations seem to have been thrown in by Rika just to keep from boredom, like the different games they play at the start. Rika probably suggests them to Mion since she doesn't want to play the same card game every loop. Other changes though, seem to be pure butterfly effects. For example how does Rika taking Satoshi over to cook dinner for K1 lead to the return of the evil uncle?

Oh by the way, there's no real need to explain Hanyu's relative lack of mobility. She's a shinto spirit. She can't leave the village (much) because she's the spirit of the village. Note incidentally that Hanyu is the variable the scientists are oblivious to when they concoct their nonsense about queen strains of viruses. People get calmer when they're around the Furudes because Hanyu's frequently around the Furudes and their shrine and most of Hanyu's energies go into trying to soothe the developing psychoses of her villagers. That's "Oyashiro-sama making peace with the oni" as the story goes.
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Old 2006-11-10, 08:04   Link #108
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[QUOTE=

Oh by the way, there's no real need to explain Hanyu's relative lack of mobility. She's a shinto spirit. She can't leave the village (much) because she's the spirit of the village. Note incidentally that Hanyu is the variable the scientists are oblivious to when they concoct their nonsense about queen strains of viruses. People get calmer when they're around the Furudes because Hanyu's frequently around the Furudes and their shrine and most of Hanyu's energies go into trying to soothe the developing psychoses of her villagers. That's "Oyashiro-sama making peace with the oni" as the story goes.[/QUOTE]

hmmm.... then can anyone explain how do Rena heard of the "footstep" when she was paranoid as her parents got divorced? I still cannot figure out if it's Hanyuu's footsteps, how she can travel so far away from the village.
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Old 2006-11-10, 09:53   Link #109
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Quote:
hmmm.... then can anyone explain how do Rena heard of the "footstep" when she was paranoid as her parents got divorced? I still cannot figure out if it's Hanyuu's footsteps, how she can travel so far away from the village.
hmm... I was also thinking about that. That was Hanyuu definitely as we know that Rena even saw her and Hanyuu talked to her.

So it seems Hanyuu can travel that far.
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Old 2006-11-10, 09:55   Link #110
David Johnston
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Originally Posted by tehtf View Post
hmmm.... then can anyone explain how do Rena heard of the "footstep" when she was paranoid as her parents got divorced? I still cannot figure out if it's Hanyuu's footsteps, how she can travel so far away from the village.
Well I don't think they are. After all, a surviving (for a while) K1 experiences the footstep hallucination after the massacre but Hanyuu wasn't even in his universe by that time, having already rebooted. So I'm inclined to thing the "I'm sorry/I'm sorry" thing is a Hanyuu projection, but the footsteps are just your amplified heartbeat fueling an hallucination. After all, the real Hanyuu isn't exactly inclined to stomp around the way that hallucination does.

However "much" doesn't mean "at all". I'm guessing, purely guessing that Hanyuu can leave for relatively brief periods. She just couldn't spend a lot of time wandering around.
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Old 2006-11-10, 10:40   Link #111
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Originally Posted by David Johnston View Post
Oh no, that isn't true. In loop 1 we see her deliberately experiment. After Keeichi grabs the bat she warns him to keep it handy. This tells us something about the loop before the first one we got to see. Keiichi was a murder victim, and he let go of the bat. So at a guess in Loop 0, bumbling irresponsible Oishi still recruits Keiichi to be his spy, but on that occasion, instead of telling Keiichi to keep the bat handy, Rika told K1 why Satoshi freaked. Ashamed, K1 leaves the bat the school, and his escalating paranoia tones down to a dull roar. Therefore he lets Rena in with the supper she made and they talk while eating. Then she says something...about the clinic perhaps? And maybe instead of getting diverted into suspicion of Mion and Rena, he goes out to check out the clinic and gets killed there.
which moment are you referring with?
When keiichi grabbed the bat for the first time, satoko just leaves without saying anything, and rika said it was nice to think about his health (meaning some physical exercise) but she asked that he should not lose the bat.

if you are not mistaken, i would say it was also due the paranoia, but i really can't find that part of the first chapter, except if it is a detail only in the game.

also, i meant that "if she could really prevent something while acting a set pattern, it would be already a huge impact, which isn't the case".

although she tried hundreds years of random worlds, she couldn't really foresee what she has to do to prevent X things (she couldn't prevent shion for snapping, so she could only kill herself)


Quote:
Now some of the variations seem to have been thrown in by Rika just to keep from boredom, like the different games they play at the start. Rika probably suggests them to Mion since she doesn't want to play the same card game every loop. Other changes though, seem to be pure butterfly effects. For example how does Rika taking Satoshi over to cook dinner for K1 lead to the return of the evil uncle?
true, though it seems it's not really often, confirming that the game choice is really random and can be the same twice, or not at all.


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Originally Posted by David Johnston View Post
Well I don't think they are. After all, a surviving (for a while) K1 experiences the footstep hallucination after the massacre but Hanyuu wasn't even in his universe by that time, having already rebooted. So I'm inclined to thing the "I'm sorry/I'm sorry" thing is a Hanyuu projection, but the footsteps are just your amplified heartbeat fueling an hallucination. After all, the real Hanyuu isn't exactly inclined to stomp around the way that hallucination does.

However "much" doesn't mean "at all". I'm guessing, purely guessing that Hanyuu can leave for relatively brief periods. She just couldn't spend a lot of time wandering around.
we don't know when hanyuu does the reboot.
there is no guarantee hanyuu is rebooting right after rika's death (especially that hanyuu is probably telling things about rika's death in minagoroshi, for matsuribayashi)

so this isn't really possible to explain each paranoid symptoms, since some can be completely false, or others are facts that are misinterpreted.
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Old 2006-11-11, 23:42   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
which moment are you referring with?
When keiichi grabbed the bat for the first time, satoko just leaves without saying anything, and rika said it was nice to think about his health (meaning some physical exercise) but she asked that he should not lose the bat.
Yeah. I think in loop "0", the one before the start of the series, she told him why Satoko was upset instead.
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Old 2006-11-13, 00:52   Link #113
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After reading the Reina clue it seems apparent that Hanyuu can be where-ever one of the villagers are, but she's more powerful close to home.

Last edited by David Johnston; 2006-11-13 at 01:14.
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:17   Link #114
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Well, after pieces #03, #26 and #39,
I think by now all these "I'm sorry, I'm sorry!" from Hanyuu are kind of clear (well, maybe not). I think:
The Furudes have the power to keep the syndrome under control due to Hanyuu's presence (In fact it's all Hanyuus doing, but since she's always with the Furudes...). However due the extreme stress due to the dam war (or maybe some kind of weakening of her powers) her powers are not being enough to keep the situation in peace. She feels guilty for it and says:
"I'm sorry, I'm sorry! [I'm sorry for not being able to save you. My powers are not enough at the moment.]

It also explains why the whole village doesn't go crazy because of Rika's death, and the Queen theory not being so accurate.
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Old 2006-11-14, 23:24   Link #115
Khym Chanur
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuugu Rena (Piece #35)
To replace that sacrifice role with something not human, that's the Misogi.

The thing that caused a dramatic change in the Japanese culture, which has always believed that a sacrifice would have to be killed, the Misogi.
Anyone know what Rena is reffering to? If anyone has any links describing this aspect of old/ancient Japanese culture, that would be especially appreciated.
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Old 2006-11-15, 00:32   Link #116
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Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
Anyone know what Rena is reffering to? If anyone has any links describing this aspect of old/ancient Japanese culture, that would be especially appreciated.
I know what "misogi" is. That is the Shinto practice of ritual self purification through washing, originally in a river, although these days they have bowls at the temple. Rena is thinking, I believe, that the practise of human sacrifice was abandoned in the village when Shinto moved in. Obviously they could not continue to practise watanagashi in the old way, because shedding blood and handling intestines in a religious context is basically blasphemous, the Shinto equivalent of pledging your soul to Hell, and not even getting anything in return. So instead the village started disemboweling things that didn't have blood (and hence wouldn't taint them) and putting them into the river, for "cleansing".

Here's a somewhat but not very relevant link:

http://cameraslens.com/stranglingritual.php

But the interesting part is that after the Great Disaster, the survivors of Hinamazawa go to ground, try to hide their background because the publication of one of Takaru's scrapbooks with all that juicy stuff about disembowelment and ritual cannibalism makes other people regard them basically as burakamin

Here's another semirelevant link:

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=477694
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Old 2006-11-15, 00:46   Link #117
Khym Chanur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston View Post
Rena is thinking, I believe, that the practise of human sacrifice was abandoned in the village when Shinto moved in.
But isn't "Watanagashi = human sacrifice" a theory of Takano's, a theory that she doesn't start sharing until later? Also, Rena talks about misogi changing Japanese culture in general, not Hinamizawa culture in particular.
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Old 2006-11-15, 01:05   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
But isn't "Watanagashi = human sacrifice" a theory of Takano's, a theory that she doesn't start sharing until later? Also, Rena talks about misogi changing Japanese culture in general, not Hinamizawa culture in particular.
no, it is not a "theory" : the Onigufchi village was practicing "human sacrifice", the "true watanagashi".

now, the "current" watanagashi is the same as david johson described : people are filling their filith and sins in the coton, representing a symbol of "absorbing" their bad deeds.

Rena is concerned about the change of the misogi : in fact, people tought the misogi should be killed, in order to cleanse the filith (you know, if the "container" dies, the "contents" will dies as well).
Now, they consider that the filith taken by the "non living misogi" is now enough
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Old 2006-11-15, 01:20   Link #119
Khym Chanur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
no, it is not a "theory" : the Onigufchi village was practicing "human sacrifice", the "true watanagashi".
So the fact that Watanagashi used to be human sacrifice is common knowledge among the villagers, including someone like Rena who just moved back and doesn't really remember her childhood there?

Quote:
Rena is concerned about the change of the misogi : in fact, people tought the misogi should be killed, in order to cleanse the filith (you know, if the "container" dies, the "contents" will dies as well).
Now, they consider that the filith taken by the "non living misogi" is now enough
I understood that part. I'm wondering how Japanese culture/religion was different before the concept of non-living misogi came about.
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Old 2006-11-15, 01:24   Link #120
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i guess not : it appears that rena was just thinking "too much" about the misogi.
back about her condition, she considered herself filthy, and she should die.
however, due the "oyashiro-sama apologizes and curse", she is a bit "relieved".

with that extent, she was just thinking about the "coton purification" and linked her condition with the watanagashi ritual.
She then understood that "killing" someone filthy is not really the best logical response to all this matter.

so, i guess she simply doesn't know anything about the ancient ritual.

i may be wrong though
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