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View Poll Results: How would you rate these genious'?
Itatchi is the best genious to date, there are no comparisons. 37 56.92%
Neji can compare to Itatchi, both are more of a genious than Sasuke. 21 32.31%
Sasuke can compare to Itatchi, both are more of a genious than Neji. 7 10.77%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-11-20, 13:37   Link #121
Mr. Johnny 5
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Just thought about it...but....MS doesnt work on Byakugan right?
The Byakugan only sees the internal stuff...and doesnt look at the "eye" even when looking at the eye..

Neji probably can see alot of chakra heading to the eye (like he saw that Spiderman do to his mouth...)

So i think MS:Tsukyomi wont work unless Byakugan goes offline and looking at it with normal eyes..
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Old 2006-11-20, 13:43   Link #122
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
Just thought about it...but....MS doesnt work on Byakugan right?
The Byakugan only sees the internal stuff...and doesnt look at the "eye" even when looking at the eye..

Neji probably can see alot of chakra heading to the eye (like he saw that Spiderman do to his mouth...)

So i think MS:Tsukyomi wont work unless Byakugan goes offline and looking at it with normal eyes..
The Byakugan sees both internal and external stuff, the Byakugan sees everything.
That's why Neji could describe Hinata's eyes when he activated the Byakugan.
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Old 2006-11-20, 13:54   Link #123
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Regarding Haku:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I'm not completely sure I understand what you mean, care to elaborate? ^^
I was mostly referring to the way Haku moves between the mirrors, and how his image changes in each mirror after he moves. The way he moved was taking place outside the mirror, but very fast. And Sasuke noticed that before he awakened the Sharingan.

After he awakened Sharingan, he started to see Haku's movements. I don't know how much Haku's ice elemental usage takes place during his movement between the mirrors, but I doubt that is what Sasuke observed to track Haku's movements. I am not saying he cannot solve the chakra-based operation of the jutsu, I am just saying at that time, he seemed to be using only the body-movement related prediction capability of Sharingan, rather than the chakra-molding related prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Maybe the Sharingan can't see the internal chakra system the way Byakugan can, but instead sees the aura surrounding the opponent. When someone focuses a large amount of chakra, the aura becomes visible (like Naruto's often does) but normally is too faint to be seen by normal eyes. Perhaps the Sharingan can see these faint chakra auras and see irregularties.
I don't think that is exactly the case.
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-11-20, 13:57   Link #124
Suna no tate
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Using spoiler tags is annoying. If the title of the thread has spoiler in it, why is it necessary for everyone to use spoiler in their posts? Due warning has already been given!

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-11-20, 15:01   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-11-20, 15:07   Link #126
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A response for subaku kyu
Spoiler:


Now for my response and again with the spoilers

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-11-20, 15:41   Link #127
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
For example, kakashi can't see through leaves (he couldn't detect sasuke when he was hiding in the bushes).
I think Kakahsi had a good idea were Sasuke was, as he could sense it, also Kakashi was not using the Sharingan.

Quote:
I would say not because against itachi, kakashi couldn't keep up with the jutsus (there was no reference to hand seal speed, just jutsu speed). I personally believe he had difficulty keeping up because he couldn't see the seals formed because they were performed under a cloak. At best he might see, chakra that leaks out elsewhere.This would be in line with the hindered vision theory as well as the previous zabuza explanation. The sharingan just can't penetrate all that well.
The translation you have on chapter 142 is most likely mistranslated, but even with that, the Message that it was trying to be directed at the reader was that The speed in which Itahci made the Jutsu, was so fast that Kakshi could not keep up with those movements, in this case the manner of which Itahci was creating Jutsus was made on a speed that overwhelmed Kakshi even when he had the Sharingan that could predict movements.

The Cloak definitely did not had anything to do with it, because if it were so, WE would had been hinted about it.

Im going and make a observation about the difference between Cloth and Skin, I will say Kakashi only uses the Cloth of the Head Protector so it helps his eye lid stay shut, you and home can do this exercise, Close one of your eyes, now place on hand IN that Closes eye.

Tell me how is better, keeping the eye close without the Hand or With the Hand? This is the same principle as Cyclops from X-men,, When Cyclops sometimes lost his visor he has no control of his Optic beams, however he can shut them down by closing his eyes, in moment were Cyclops has lost both His Sun Glasses and Visor, what he always does is take a piece of Cloth and cover his eye, is not that this piece of cloth can stop Cyclops from shooting beams from the eyes, but is that this piece of Cloth in his eye will help Cyclops to keep his eye shut better than having nothing at all.

Now, Maybe with the Eyelid shut the Sharingan visibility turns to cero, just as the only thing that stops Cyclops blast, is his eyelid close. maybe because the eyelid skin actually comes in contact with the Iris and cornea, and thus taking away the vissibility of the eye.

Quote:
To finish the point, lets say we play a game where a ninja is in a large clear box made out of glass and kakashi is present. The game is kakashi has to write down the seal sequence performed by the ninja. The ninja will perform a 25 seal sequence entirely under the cloak. kakashi of course flawless replicates the sequence. Then a large black thick curtain is draped over the glass box to where the ninja is completely hidden from sight. He produces a new 25 seal sequence. Can kakashi replicate this sequence?
Who knows?…you created a scenario that are hard to tell given the information we got.


Quote:
In essence the vision is limited and the techniqes that cam be copied have to be limited to that which can be seen. If the chakra molding and mixing is too fine, it just makes sense that the jutsu cannot be copied simply by vision.

I did not understand you.

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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-20 at 16:03.
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Old 2006-11-20, 16:07   Link #128
Suna no tate
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The sharingan user can't see as well as byakugan user. Lets say there is jutsu with chakra movement at the level that the byakugan user can see* but at that level the sharingan user can't see. Can the sharingan copy that jutsu simply by his vision? You can't copy what you can't see.

*lets say you use your tenketsu to do something. I choose tenketsu because that is something specifically stated that the byakugan user can see but the sharingan can. However, I'm sure there are less "fine" and less "subtle" things that only the byakugan user can see. I just choose this example because its a stated one.
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Old 2006-11-20, 16:14   Link #129
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
The sharingan user can't see as well as byakugan user. Lets say there is jutsu with chakra movement at the level that the byakugan user can see* but at that level the sharingan user can't see. Can the sharingan copy that jutsu simply by his vision? You can't copy what you can't see

*lets say you use your tenketsu to do something. I choose tenketsu because that is something specifically stated that the byakugan user can see but the sharingan can. However, I'm sure there are less "fine" and less "subtle" things that only the byakugan user can see. I just choose this example because its a stated one.
What does it means when you refers to Chakra movement?

And then, taking the Tenketsus example, the Sharingan donít need to see the tenketsus to tell that the Chkara is been released from specific spot on the body, is just like the Chakra Flow, the Sharingan does not see the Chakra pathway were the Chakra is transported, but still the Sharingan do his copy job.
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Old 2006-11-20, 19:24   Link #130
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Regarding Haku: I was mostly referring to the way Haku moves between the mirrors, and how his image changes in each mirror after he moves. The way he moved was taking place outside the mirror, but very fast. And Sasuke noticed that before he awakened the Sharingan.
Ha I see where our perspective differ now : I don't think Haku was forced to leave a mirror to pass to another if he didn't want to attack. Once he was inside he could pass instantaneously into another and even being in all of them at the same time (don't ask me how).
So in order for Sasuke to know from which one the attack was coming he had to interpret the chakra inside the mirrors hence why I don't see it as body-movement related prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Using spoiler tags is annoying. If the title of the thread has spoiler in it, why is it necessary for everyone to use spoiler in their posts? Due warning has already been given!
That's pretty much the point Suna, the title of this thread doesn't have spoiler tag.

I think I wasn't clear enough when I exposed my thought about the Byakugan seeing or not in the dark.
The point isn't that they can see thing in the dark... But if they can see if their eyes are in the dark which is quite different ^^
Sazelyt mentioned Neji watching just fine inside Jiroubou's rock jutsu but if I remember well they were all able to see easily so I guess it wasn't so dark.
I don't firmly believe that though, the Byakugan could also see everything no matter the physical environment.
In the other hand it does seem to be the case for the Sharingan or there would be no point for Kakashi to hide his eye.

Spoiler:

Not only that but we know since the fight between Sasuke and Naruto that the prediction ability of the Sharingan works by analyzing the subbtle relations between chakra and muscles which would be impossible if it couldn't see internal chakra.
I also remember a direct reference to Itachi's handseal speed by Kakashi chap142 or so but the chapter was mistranslated back then.

Quote:
The sharingan user can't see as well as byakugan user. Lets say there is jutsu with chakra movement at the level that the byakugan user can see* but at that level the sharingan user can't see. Can the sharingan copy that jutsu simply by his vision? You can't copy what you can't see.
While it's true that you can't copy what you can't see I think this is a wrong example.
Again it's not really that the Sharingan doesn't see as well as the Byakugan chakra flow, it's rather that their vision is entirely different and don't focus on the same thing.
On a physical level the vision of the Byakugan is unmatched, in your example a Byakugan user would clearly see the chakra passing through the real chakra pathway, a real good Byakugan user could even see from which Tenketsu the chakra is released.
A Sharingan user will see nothing of the sort, he will see chakra wave-like that the Sharingan will interpret precisely as X amount of chakra built in Y way is traveling toward this point for Z purpose(s).

Where the Byakugan sees everything, the Sharingan explains/translates/interprets everything.


Btw we are awfully off topic, this discussion clearly belongs to the Sharingan vs. Byakugan thread :P
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Old 2006-11-20, 21:20   Link #131
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Sazelyt mentioned Neji watching just fine inside Jiroubou's rock jutsu but if I remember well they were all able to see easily so I guess it wasn't so dark.
YUp., Shikamaru was analyzing the Behavior of Jiroubous Jutsu upon Kiba's attacks.

Quote:
Btw we are awfully off topic, this discussion clearly belongs to the Sharingan vs. Byakugan thread :P
I been thinking that since 2 days ago
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Old 2006-11-21, 12:11   Link #132
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Im going and make a observation about the difference between Cloth and Skin, I will say Kakashi only uses the Cloth of the Head Protector so it helps his eye lid stay shut, you and home can do this exercise, Close one of your eyes, now place on hand IN that Closes eye.

Tell me how is better, keeping the eye close without the Hand or With the Hand? This is the same principle as Cyclops from X-men,, When Cyclops sometimes lost his visor he has no control of his Optic beams, however he can shut them down by closing his eyes, in moment were Cyclops has lost both His Sun Glasses and Visor, what he always does is take a piece of Cloth and cover his eye, is not that this piece of cloth can stop Cyclops from shooting beams from the eyes, but is that this piece of Cloth in his eye will help Cyclops to keep his eye shut better than having nothing at all.

Now, Maybe with the Eyelid shut the Sharingan visibility turns to cero, just as the only thing that stops Cyclops blast, is his eyelid close. maybe because the eyelid skin actually comes in contact with the Iris and cornea, and thus taking away the vissibility of the eye.


[/spoiler]
lol.. its funny x-men got pointed out in this forum, but i guess it works. It seems to be the case that sharingan turns off when your eyes are closed. It is told from the beginning of the manga believe, as well as insinuated his sharingan is off when his eye is closed and his head protector covers it. So we are forced to believe that while cloth may not stop it, his eye is always closed underneath it. Similiar to when you get an eye-patch from the doctor, it helps to keep your eye closed so it can heal.

It was pointed out that sharingan isn't as perceptive as byakugen, but i didn't realize that sharingan could actually see a slight perspective that byakugen can. Can anyone post the chapter it was on, or host page where obito looks at rin's "chakra waves". Its been so long i had forgotten it had happened.
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Old 2006-11-21, 12:41   Link #133
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
It was pointed out that sharingan isn't as perceptive as byakugen, but i didn't realize that sharingan could actually see a slight perspective that byakugen can. Can anyone post the chapter it was on, or host page where obito looks at rin's "chakra waves". Its been so long i had forgotten it had happened.

Spoiler for Sharingan's view of chakra:
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Old 2006-11-24, 12:06   Link #134
deaddeath
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Neji can compare to Itachi because their both genuious. Sasuke can't compare 2 neither of them even if he tryed. Neji is almost close to the age of Itachi. But even thou' Neji losed to Naruto doesn't mean he can't compare to the genius from the Uchiha clan.
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Old 2006-11-24, 14:07   Link #135
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Spoiler for Sharingan's view of chakra:
Ah i see, thats certainly a lot more vague than the byakugen =p. Thanks for the post!!
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Old 2006-11-24, 19:46   Link #136
astayanax
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The main difference between Neji and Itachi is this:

Neji is an unbelievable prodigy of the Hyuuga clan but he was MUCH weaker than his uncle, the leader of the Hyuuga clan.

Spoiler:


Itachi is an unbelievable prodigy of the Uchiha clan, but he was MUCH stronger than everyone else in his clan, hence why (if you believe the stories) single handingly take out the clan.

NB/ (I know there is the supposed 3rd MS user, but since we haven't seen him yet, ignoring him)
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Old 2006-11-24, 19:50   Link #137
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
The main difference between Neji and Itachi is this:

Neji is an unbelievable prodigy of the Hyuuga clan but he was MUCH weaker than his uncle, the leader of the Hyuuga clan.

Spoiler:


Itachi is an unbelievable prodigy of the Uchiha clan, but he was MUCH stronger than everyone else in his clan, hence why (if you believe the stories) single handingly take out the clan.

NB/ (I know there is the supposed 3rd MS user, but since we haven't seen him yet, ignoring him)
Yeah, this is a good point i tried to bring up also.

Neji seems to be very intelligent and hard-working. In this manner he is a great genious. However compared to Itatchi who was naturally gifted as a ninja in general (speed, talent, jutsu), he isn't what i consider a "super genious", which is being gifted at all aspects of a ninja.

This is painfully clear when Hiashi could easily overpower Neji during the chuunin exams, and at that point Itatchi could kill his entire clan.
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Old 2006-11-24, 19:56   Link #138
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Can you actually define super genius more specific...sure he is indeed smarter than lots i'd presume..if he's able to kill his clan. And this is a very "distorted" thing because yes even Naruto is super genius compared to some 2 year olds. And so Itachi could easily compared to 2 way younger people and be super genius in comparison. And others means atleast more than one [noun] not pertaining to a specific type or oneself. Agree?
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Old 2006-11-24, 20:00   Link #139
Dauthi
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Can you actually define super genius more specific...sure he is indeed smarter than lots i'd presume..if he's able to kill his clan. And this is a very "distorted" thing because yes even Naruto is super genius compared to some 2 year olds. And so Itachi could easily compared to 2 way younger people and be super genius in comparison. And others means atleast more than one [noun] not pertaining to a specific type or oneself. Agree?
Well when they refer to "genius" in the anime/manga it seems to be those who are strongly gifted/talented in an aspect of being a ninja.

Itatchi progressed faster than all the other proclaimed "genius'". Im thinking this is because he was more talented in all aspects of being a ninja.
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