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Old 2006-12-02, 11:35   Link #1
LostOnTheU-rturn
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[Manga] teleportation vs speed

Hiraishin (teleportation) vs Shushin (speed)
Here is something that i hope people would understand.

Hiraishin is no different than shushin in close range combat. People's answer to everything concerning Yondaime is always Hiraishin, and how no one can deal with teleporttation in order to counter attack, evade, etc. This thread is meant to put this myth to rest.

The myth is that Hiraishin is "unbeatable", this is the same people that once thought that rasengan wasn't copiable. But before i start this, i want to make clear of one thing, Hiraishin doesn't kill! You guys would be surprised to how many people i have seen saying this foolish thing in the battledome.

We have already have seen Hiraishin in action in the Kakashi Gaiden so there is no need to post the pics here. We know that Hiraishin is "instant" but "instant" depend on where you use it. If you watch the Gaiden you will get a good example of this. You had Yondaime fighting 50 shinobis in a battle field, yet he was able to teleport in an instant to save Kakashi and Rin from a certain doom who were in a total different battlefield. This is something that speed alone just can't do. This is what separate teleportation from speed, the amount of ground you can cover in an instant. However, short distances is something speed can match teleportation, as well as the target being able to counter or evade.

Here you have Gai's speed for example.

chapter 38 page 11


Gai was in Team 7 position in an instant.

Here you have Sasuke post timeskip

chapter 307 pages 13,14


Here you have Itachi

chapter 141 pages 15 and 16


and here you have instant movement and counter attacks/evading attacks.

chapter 142 pages 8, 9, 10


In other words, people with high skills can avoid "instant kill". Notice how Yondaime never used Hiraishin in front of his enemy. The stone shinobi was hiding when he got tracked down, while the 50 shiobis where hiding behind a boulder, plus they didn't know Yondaime had arrived. Which is why Hiraishin works for long range and ambushing, but at close range is no different than shushin.

I will post soont eh chapter since i had originally posted this with the manga scans. so give me like ten minutes.

Last edited by LostOnTheU-rturn; 2006-12-02 at 12:41.
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Old 2006-12-02, 12:25   Link #2
Sabaku Kyu
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I'll agree with this statement. No jutsu is invincible and Hiraishin is no exception. Truth is, we've never seen Hiraishin used against high level ninja before so we can't really assume how it would do one-on-one against an S-class shinobi. But it seems like Hiraishin is most useful for taking out large numbers of ninja at once. The effect is something like being able to appear in several places simultaneously. We saw this when Yondaime was basically able to single-handedly defeat an entire army of Rock-nin without breaking a sweat. You can't do this Shushin, which only allows a short burst of speed.

One on one however, I would think the technique becomes more comparable to Shushin. However, since it is a teleportation technique, there is no way of tracing the movement of the character. A skilled enough ninja could track the movement of someone using Shushin (even though the user would appear invisible to most average ninja), but not someone using Hiraishin. That makes the move much harder to evade or counter. But even Shushin is potentially very dangerous if someone is excels at using the technique. Uchiha Shisui apparently used it a great deal and he was considered one of the strongest Uchiha in the clan.
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Old 2006-12-02, 12:30   Link #3
Suna no tate
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ahem... the 4ths jutsu allowed him to almost be in 2 places at once. Whats even better is he can place the seal where he wants, even on an opponents body. I don't quite see how you compare that to pure speed. Its something much more beyond that. If he tags you with the seal, you can be killed at any second in less than a second regardless of distance. It allows him to escape from just about any jutsu as well. Speed will not provide that same luxury.
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Old 2006-12-02, 12:33   Link #4
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Sorry, guys, i'm collecting the chapter and page, so you can that the comparison goes smoothler (sp)
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Old 2006-12-02, 12:53   Link #5
Hunter
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It's true that some people make Hiraishin like the ultimate move that beats everything no matter what to a ridiculous point, I mean is there someone thinking that Nightcrawler from X-Men was the deadliest mutant alive because he could teleport? And way more easily than with this jutsu even.
Still this jutsu may be overrated -mainly because of its user- it doesn't change that it's a truly impressive jutsu that more than deserve its rank.

Sure at close range the difference in speed isn't that impressive, where an uber fast ninja will reach his opponent in 0.0001s teleportation will allow to do that in 0s which isn't that much of a difference and make basically no difference at all if you're so fast that your opponent can't see you.
There is also the fact that if Hiraishin can teleport you to a certain point you still have to make the attack itself which take time depending of your natural speed hence why a Jounin with shunshin would still be way more dangerous than a Genin with Hiraishin in close combat.

But against someone with roughly equivalent skills this difference can get rather large : first it's not predictable (let's not come into the Sharingan here to avoid another stupid Itachi vs. Yondaime) like normal movements. Experiences and skills make possible to know where and what your opponent is doing to a certain extent. With teleportation your opponent just pops here and there without warning.
Of course the fact that tags are needed to teleport shorten the places where you can appear but since tags can be placed with a mere touch and not only with Kunai it can become quickly impossible to keep count of them.
The "mere touch" thingy is also what made Hiraishin so lethal in the hands of a good fighter.
Once your opponent is "tagged" he's safe nowhere. That's not to say no one could be able to counter it (there is already plenty of way to deak with it) being tagged make almost impossible to remain on the offensive.

When you add to that the impossibility to imprison within a physical jutsu, the ability to break free from any figth to a safe place if need be and to return wherever you placed a tag before in a thought, etc. it becomes quite clear that Hiraishin is always better than Shushin and speed in general.
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Old 2006-12-02, 12:53   Link #6
MobiuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
ahem... the 4ths jutsu allowed him to almost be in 2 places at once. Whats even better is he can place the seal where he wants, even on an opponents body. I don't quite see how you compare that to pure speed. Its something much more beyond that. If he tags you with the seal, you can be killed at any second in less than a second regardless of distance. It allows him to escape from just about any jutsu as well. Speed will not provide that same luxury.
Aw man. Dont act like Yellow Flash. First off, him teleporting to you does not mean instant death. If you have faster reflexes, you can off him before he kills you.

The tag does not kill you. HE has to kill you. So tell me. Yondaime tags Sasori, Kimimarro or Orochimaru. he teleports up to them. And then what? Are they
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
killed at any second in less than a second regardless of distance
?

Deidara sneaks an itty bitty bomb on him. Wheres he running off to? Shino's bugs can eat whatever tags get on him. : / I dunno ... its impressive but its not the end-all-be-all you groupies make it sound like.
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Old 2006-12-02, 13:14   Link #7
Mr. Johnny 5
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I disagree....

Speed is well...speed....

Let's say you compare Naruto to Konohamaru....Naruto can move in an instant behind Konohamaru (it'll seem instant for Konohamaru)
For a guy like Sasuke, Itachi or Jiraiya....it's rather slow...or perhaps considred average speed...

Hiraishin will always remain....instant..no matter how fast you are...
Besides the Sharingan can read...something like movements....while teleportation (close, mid, long range) is always different...and something a Sharingan cant read...
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Old 2006-12-02, 13:19   Link #8
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I disagree....

Speed is well...speed....

Let's say you compare Naruto to Konohamaru....Naruto can move in an instant behind Konohamaru (it'll seem instant for Konohamaru)
For a guy like Sasuke, Itachi or Jiraiya....it's rather slow...or perhaps considred average speed...

Hiraishin will always remain....instant..no matter how fast you are...
Besides the Sharingan can read...something like movements....while teleportation (close, mid, long range) is always different...and something a Sharingan cant read...
I don't want to bring the sharingan into this as Hunter said, for this thread would become a Itachi vs Yondaime thread.


But mere close combat between those two technique.

One argument i can us is that Rin compare hiraishin to shunshin, of course she didn't know it was Hiraishin. She was impressed in how fast was his shunshin, but "shushin" also depend on the user level

You have Shunshin no Shisui, he was so fast, that he got that nickname.
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Old 2006-12-02, 13:21   Link #9
Suna no tate
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I just see it as the most useful technique. Once you have it you can use it to setup almost any kind of jutsu and it will probably work and if it doesn't work you can just teleport back. Also, you can use it to teleport weapon to a spot. You don't understand. Its teleporting a weapon to a spot. You cannot dodge it. While I don't think its invincible, (he has to plant the tag in a place and all that stuff, kinda similar to hidan's technique), if I could only have 2 jutsus, it'd definitely be the first one I picked. The second would be maybe rasengan or chidori.
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Old 2006-12-02, 13:41   Link #10
tatami
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well what i think is that speed kills hiraishin...
tobe able to use hiraishin you must spot your point as in yondaime s case vith a kunai...
if you have enough speed to escape from kunai then hiraishin wont work...

forexample against itachi or a high level byakugan user, even if you throw a kunai, your opponent will be able to move and put a distance between him and kunai...so you will be teleported to no where near your opponent...(yet this only works for the opponents who knows about hiaishin...)
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Old 2006-12-02, 13:49   Link #11
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by tatami View Post
well what i think is that speed kills hiraishin...
tobe able to use hiraishin you must spot your point as in yondaime s case vith a kunai...
if you have enough speed to escape from kunai then hiraishin wont work...

forexample against itachi or a high level byakugan user, even if you throw a kunai, your opponent will be able to move and put a distance between him and kunai...so you will be teleported to no where near your opponent...(yet this only works for the opponents who knows about hiaishin...)
Technically it's the seal on the kunai and not the kunai themselves that allows teleportation. If you could somehow sneak a seal onto an opponent, then it wouldn't matter where they moved. Of course, getting the seal unnoticed onto an opponent wouldn't necessarily be easy.
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Old 2006-12-02, 14:37   Link #12
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lets put it this way: lets just say he gets the tag on someone, and teleports to them. He then stabs with his kunai which is blocked, but because hiraishen is instantaneous he can immediately stab him in the kidney from behind as soon as the enemy ninja blocks the first stab.

so if he indeed does get the tag on the enemy then i would argue that they're number is up
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Old 2006-12-02, 14:38   Link #13
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
I don't want to bring the sharingan into this as Hunter said, for this thread would become a Itachi vs Yondaime thread.


But mere close combat between those two technique.

One argument i can us is that Rin compare hiraishin to shunshin, of course she didn't know it was Hiraishin. She was impressed in how fast was his shunshin, but "shushin" also depend on the user level

You have Shunshin no Shisui, he was so fast, that he got that nickname.
I didnt even mentioned names...i only said Sharingan....(which is used to predict stuff)

Anyway how powerfull this technique is.....its certain it has a terrible flaw...

All powerfull jutsu's (that seem overpowered) have a serious weakness (flaw)
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Old 2006-12-02, 15:33   Link #14
Nuu
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yes because he used kunai to place his tags with Hiraishin he had unusually kunai that were heavier and were not of traditional style so unless you had encountered him in the past you really wouldnt know or the deflection wouldnt go that far ...but hey it is one hell of a long range jutsu to set up a good tactic if your enemy doesnt notice it/you first
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Old 2006-12-02, 15:34   Link #15
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Originally Posted by Missilebuster View Post
lets put it this way: lets just say he gets the tag on someone, and teleports to them. He then stabs with his kunai which is blocked, but because hiraishen is instantaneous he can immediately stab him in the kidney from behind as soon as the enemy ninja blocks the first stab.

so if he indeed does get the tag on the enemy then i would argue that they're number is up

No ...

He can immediately teleport back to the tag wherever its located and try to stab them in the back. Theres a big difference. He still has to swing his arm, and a faster opponent could him in that gap.
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Old 2006-12-02, 15:43   Link #16
Suna no tate
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the flaw is obvious. it needs a seal to be planted on something. However even with that its incredibly dangerous. I think the best defense against it is trying to chat him up. The fourth seems like a nice enough guy. I bet if you put out one or two jokes you could probably get him to ease up a bit.
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Old 2006-12-02, 16:43   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
the flaw is obvious. it needs a seal to be planted on something. However even with that its incredibly dangerous. I think the best defense against it is trying to chat him up. The fourth seems like a nice enough guy. I bet if you put out one or two jokes you could probably get him to ease up a bit.
-LOL wouldn't that be a hilarious situation. Yondaime's about to slash a guy in half until he hears the guy say a rather funny joke and he falls to the ground laughing with his hands holding his stomach. The guy then earns the title "He who defeated the Yellow Flash". Question is, can anyone ever react fast enough for his movements?
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Old 2006-12-02, 17:06   Link #18
tatami
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well hiraishin is not teleportation,it is teleportation through the seal thing. that makes his actions loose time...also if yondaime places a seal to a kunai and spot it somewhere back of his opponent,if the opponent is fast enough and put 1 step backwards yondi will be in trouble...

not even want to mention sharingan...(was it able to see actions path?)

as i said before hiraishin can only be effective if it is a suprise attack or ace move never seen before...

if one has seen it before he can avoid it easly(depending on his level of course n_n)

but speed is different...everyone has speed.but some had more then others...yet still can be countered...
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Old 2006-12-02, 17:14   Link #19
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I didnt even mentioned names...i only said Sharingan....(which is used to predict stuff)
Bringing the sharingan is like bringing Itachi, trust me.

Quote:
Anyway how powerfull this technique is.....its certain it has a terrible flaw...

All powerfull jutsu's (that seem overpowered) have a serious weakness (flaw)
I agree, but the point i wanted to make was how Hiraishin at close range wouldn't be a difference against a high level shinobi with shunshin.
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Old 2006-12-02, 17:43   Link #20
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No ...

He can immediately teleport back to the tag wherever its located and try to stab them in the back. Theres a big difference. He still has to swing his arm, and a faster opponent could him in that gap.
im pretty sure he can warp to anywhere within a certain distance of the tag, but even if he has to be touching it he can still come from in front of him then warp to the back of him with one hand reaching around and touching it...
how exactly does it work though?
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