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Old 2006-12-02, 19:32   Link #21
.opi
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i think the main difference is how well the opponent can sense it.........from what we've seen so far, you can only gain that ability to just appear behind your opponent with pure speed, if their "awareness" skill isnt up to par to match your speed.

i mean, for example, we are shown that lee is very fast. he was able to appear infront of those sound nin in the chuunin test without them being able to react, or when he did it to sasuke. but then what if lee was matched up against Oro? most likely his speed wouldnt allow him to just sneak up behind oro and kick him in the face.

but with teleporation, you're not moving, you're just appearing. so even for someone like Oro, they would only be aware of ur change in position once u were re-appeared.
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Old 2006-12-02, 22:36   Link #22
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There are two unknown things about Yondaime's jutsu.

The first unknown is, where does the person appear compared to the location of the seal? If the location is a bit random (since Yondaime doesn't have to see the teleportation location, how can he make sure he doesn't find himself in an awkward position, for instance, appearing in the middle of a cliff), then against a very skillful and fast opponent who is aware of that jutsu's teleportation, then the reaction times of both side can be matched. That efficiency loss might balance the loss in sight of the opponent, if he were to use only speed.

The second unknown is, whether Yondaime changes the time-dimensional space, such as moving at normal speed at a different location, where the time moves much slower than the time in the original dimension. This way, Yondaime can appear at the place he want, he only needs a pointer to that location so that he can avoid getting lost in that space and at the same time reach his target. If he can appear the way he wanted at that destination, then no matter what the reaction time or speed of your opponent is, it will always be advantageous compared to a technique based on pure speed.
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Old 2006-12-03, 00:27   Link #23
Demongod86
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From what we've seen of ninjas, they use speed and evasion to get by. If you put a knife to throat, they're dead. If not the throat, fireball to the back of the head, whatever...

The difference here is that Yondaime knows ahead of time what he'll do to his opponent, so the moment he's behind them, they're already dead. It happens like this: he teleports behind them, they realize he's there, oops, knife to throat.

Fuck your rasengans and raikiris and edo tenseis and summon omgwtfbbqbigassfrog, in ninja vs. ninja, teleport=ultimate maneuver.

Itachi vs. Yondaime would rest on what hits first: Hiraishin or Mangekyou...
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Old 2006-12-03, 05:24   Link #24
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
Bringing the sharingan is like bringing Itachi, trust me.
Not really....it could be the same for Sasuke or any Uchiha that lived or is still alive..

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Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
I agree, but the point i wanted to make was how Hiraishin at close range wouldn't be a difference against a high level shinobi with shunshin.
Well that's where my point comes...Sharingan. How fast the movement is...the more skilled a Sharingan user is...(still no names) the easier it'll be for him to predict the opponents destination when using Shunshin...because the move isnt instant..

To any other (Non-Uchiha) it probably wont seem any different...that's where i would agree with you...
Kakashi used this on Naruto during the bell training and it seemed instant movement to them....
Gai used this on team 7 when he told them he was stronger then Kakashi...
etc. etc.
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Old 2006-12-03, 08:23   Link #25
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if we leave yondaime-itachi fanboyism, i think itachi has a high chance against yondaime (in another way its like naruto vs sasuke--a loser who goes genius vs a genius bloodline limit user) yondaime's hirashin is good i admit it..but a ninja at his level (itachi,white fang?lol) surely can avoid it.his best move is rasengan after all so hes not always gonna use hirashin+hirashin+hirashin+die!! i think every jutsu has a counter (like sharingan--dont look at eye,byakugan blind spot,or elemental weakness fire-water like..) so hirashin might not be problem to high leveld ninjas (those simple ninjas were no match for yondaime that time.they were just preys to show how strong was yondaime) so i can say fast ninjas can surely get rid of hirashin.take kakashi or itachi for ex, both are xtemely fast at speed and they both got sharingan to slow-motion things..even if "hirashin is imune to sharingan" (didnt even know if thats true..probly sme rubbish from yondaime fanboyism) they can see handseals or can take defensive positions?
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Old 2006-12-03, 09:06   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
Not really....it could be the same for Sasuke or any Uchiha that lived or is still alive..
Nah. It would start as why there is no reason to believe the Sharingan can't read through Hiraishin then how it doesn't matter anyway because the Sharingan user would be dead the same instant he would see it then how Itachi -and not another Uchiha because they're not see as strong enough- could react to Yondaime's attack then how Yondaime is uber and Itachi is the L33t yadda yadda until you have a thread solely about Itachi vs. Yondaime instead of the original topic.
It always ends like that :P

See the post above mine? It starts already.
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Old 2006-12-03, 09:25   Link #27
MobiuS
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im pretty sure he can warp to anywhere within a certain distance of the tag, but even if he has to be touching it he can still come from in front of him then warp to the back of him with one hand reaching around and touching it...
how exactly does it work though?
Lemme put it this way. If theres an opponent who can attack within a split second (read gated fighter) and Yondaime appears ... he still needs HIS ACTUAL ATTACK SPEED to hit them. He appears with a knife. Now HE has to cut their neck or whatnot.

If the opponent is faster than Yondaime, as soon as he appears, they fight back. No matter how many times he teleports to the target, they are still faster than he is, so before he can swipe the kunai or push the Rasengan in their skull, they have already hit him in the face. Prolly a kunai to the eye. His only option would be to retreat before the hit. But considering they are faster than he is, and they had already started swinging ... they probably hit him before he can run.
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Old 2006-12-03, 09:58   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
From what we've seen of ninjas, they use speed and evasion to get by. If you put a knife to throat, they're dead. If not the throat, fireball to the back of the head, whatever...

The difference here is that Yondaime knows ahead of time what he'll do to his opponent, so the moment he's behind them, they're already dead. It happens like this: he teleports behind them, they realize he's there, oops, knife to throat.
No they are not already dead. They are merely on the verge to be stabbed (or something else).
Kaiten, Chidori Nagaishi, Sand Armor, Iron Skin, Bone Armor, puppet body, other kind of teleportation, Kage/Mizu/Wood/etc. Bunshin, worse Explosive Kage Bunshin, high healing factor, Genjutsu, incredible reflexes, Kyubi chakra shield, and the list goes on.
Like any jutsu there are countless way to counter the Hiraishin. What make it so deadly isn't really the jutsu by itself, it's the fact it was used by Yondaime.

Let's rewrite the Kakashi Gaiden, imagine instead of Hiraishin Yondaime was using the invisibility no jutsu of the rock nin and vice versa.
Kakashi is being saved by an invisible Yondaime who appears then out of nowhere behind the Rock nin's back to kill him.
The Rock nin uses Hiraishin to slash Kakashi's eye but is killed by Obito who sees him molding chakra to teleport as well as the chakra activation of the seal and who can thus stab the place where the Rock nin was appearing.

The result would have been exactly the same as now : people crazy about invisibility saying that there is no way to beat that, that Yondaime could kill anybody because no one could know he was there and that even the Byakugan and the Sharingan couldn't because he was invisible.
Nobody would talk about Hiraishin because the ninja using it was cannon fodder.
That's just how things work.
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Old 2006-12-03, 10:37   Link #29
AlphaDragoon
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If we are using two generic high-level nin for this example...

If one plants a Hiraishin tag on the other the fight isn't "over", but the tagged nin WILL be at a great disadvantage. No matter how fast you are you'll never be able to get back to being on the offensive, because as soon as you use your Shunshin to try and get away or get behind your opponent...they're already behind you. Or on your side, or wherever the tag was placed.

So in effect, the only option available to you as long as they continue to use Hiraishin to appear wherever you are is to fight them, and fight them in close-quarters. In order to win at that point, you'll have to come up with something crafty (i.e. Jin in Samurai Champloo taking the Divine Hand's slash head-on so he could entrap him and stab him with the "suicide" attack).
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Old 2006-12-03, 11:04   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
Not really....it could be the same for Sasuke or any Uchiha that lived or is still alive..
Hunter pretty much said it all.

Quote:
Well that's where my point comes...Sharingan. How fast the movement is...the more skilled a Sharingan user is...(still no names) the easier it'll be for him to predict the opponents destination when using Shunshin...because the move isnt instant..
But you forget two things

Sharingan can read chakra flow and second, Hiraishin uses chakra. Tags aka Gates would use chakra for opening and closing the worm holes as all jutsus uses chakra. While this is very fast, Yondaime can't bypass something. Hiraisin is divided intro three parts, A (his location) B (the worm hole) and C (his final destination), which he then needs to appply two more things, orientation and attack. This pretty much might allow a high level shinobi with a sharingan to avoid Yondaime's hiraishin, and this is of course presuming he has a tag near the oponent. Of course, other kage level shinobi would have their own way of counterng this.


Quote:
To any other (Non-Uchiha) it probably wont seem any different...that's where i would agree with you...
Kakashi used this on Naruto during the bell training and it seemed instant movement to them....
Gai used this on team 7 when he told them he was stronger then Kakashi...
etc. etc.
The thing is that at close range, it won't make much of a difference. There will be different perception of speed depending the person, but it still the same, instant.
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Old 2006-12-03, 11:20   Link #31
MobiuS
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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon View Post
If we are using two generic high-level nin for this example...

If one plants a Hiraishin tag on the other the fight isn't "over", but the tagged nin WILL be at a great disadvantage. No matter how fast you are you'll never be able to get back to being on the offensive, because as soon as you use your Shunshin to try and get away or get behind your opponent...they're already behind you. Or on your side, or wherever the tag was placed.

So in effect, the only option available to you as long as they continue to use Hiraishin to appear wherever you are is to fight them, and fight them in close-quarters. In order to win at that point, you'll have to come up with something crafty (i.e. Jin in Samurai Champloo taking the Divine Hand's slash head-on so he could entrap him and stab him with the "suicide" attack).
Ild move the tag on my balls. Hopefully the opponent would be too disgusted as the fact that they would be teleporting on my privates to actually use the move.

Even Shika cant come up with that level of genius tactics!!
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Old 2006-12-03, 11:41   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Kaiten, Chidori Nagaishi, Sand Armor, Iron Skin, Bone Armor, puppet body, other kind of teleportation, Kage/Mizu/Wood/etc. Bunshin, worse Explosive Kage Bunshin, high healing factor, Genjutsu, incredible reflexes, Kyubi chakra shield, and the list goes on.
Like any jutsu there are countless way to counter the Hiraishin. What make it so deadly isn't really the jutsu by itself, it's the fact it was used by Yondaime.
Not exactly true. Without knowing how Yondaime's jutsu operates (whether the location of teleportation can be determined at the instant he arrives his destination, or whether he uses some other dimension to move towards that destination), with only the result of that operation, it is really hard to guess what really can happen, if the jutsu was used against opponents using those techniques even at the perfect level. The time to use those techniques shouldn't be enough to counter Yondaime's technique if the teleport in normal time is indeed instantaneous. That also says even at the hands of a mediocre ninja compared to the opponent, it can still perform as well, you only need good speed, and a deadly technique - which do not require someone at the level of Hokage.
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Old 2006-12-03, 12:48   Link #33
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Not exactly true. Without knowing how Yondaime's jutsu operates (whether the location of teleportation can be determined at the instant he arrives his destination, or whether he uses some other dimension to move towards that destination), with only the result of that operation, it is really hard to guess what really can happen, if the jutsu was used against opponents using those techniques even at the perfect level. The time to use those techniques shouldn't be enough to counter Yondaime's technique if the teleport in normal time is indeed instantaneous. That also says even at the hands of a mediocre ninja compared to the opponent, it can still perform as well, you only need good speed, and a deadly technique - which do not require someone at the level of Hokage.
Why not? It requires either very good reflexes and/or planning ahead and/or permanent jutsu.
Yondaime suddenly appearing behind you ready to strike means death for most ninja because he's that good.
Give the same jutsu to Ninja-joe and many ninja in the show has already showed what it needs to counter such attack simply because they are that much faster than a regular ninja's arm or because they possess ability that make physical attack close to meaningless or because they planed ahead the use of Bunshin making impossible to know which target is the good one.

For example imagine Sasuke with Hiraishin the first time he faced Lee. That would barely change anything.
Sasuke's body was still too slow to deal with Lee's speed and during the little time he would need to move his hand in order to stab Lee, Lee would have kicked the hell out of him.

It doesn't meant this jutsu isn't a great asset because it's one of the most useful supplementary jutsu of the show but it's certainley no alpha and omega jutsu.
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Old 2006-12-03, 13:37   Link #34
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As said before Speed is Speed, when your moving across an area, you have a path, no matter what speed your going you still follow that Path. This can be either acctual movement like running or an attck like a punch or a kick. As ive always seen it, Sharingan gives the user a look at that path, you can seer whats going on because you know where the attack is going even before its acctually there because u can see that path....because of that reason speed can be countered. If someones replexes are good enough, and also if they have advantages like being able to pre-determin an attacks direction etc, then u can counter speed.


However - Teleportation is completly different, well depending on what beliefs u have in the mechanics in which people teleport, but in a nutshell teleportation occurs by causing someone to instantaneously move over a distance. They have no path, they have no movement. Its just an instantanous action with no in between. Because of this, say something like Sharingan (if u believe the same way i do) wouldn't be able to pre-determin it. How can u pre-determin an action that has no path, no guidelines or anything. U can teleport to anywhere in space, how can u possibly determin where that person is going to turn up? We'll by being either psychick and knowing what the other person is thinking or being able to determin he human phycey like the Byukugan users can.

Both speed and teleportation can be pre-determined.......but its far far more easier to determin the speed rather than teleportation.
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Old 2006-12-03, 14:15   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Why not? It requires either very good reflexes and/or planning ahead and/or permanent jutsu.
Yondaime suddenly appearing behind you ready to strike means death for most ninja because he's that good.
Give the same jutsu to Ninja-joe and many ninja in the show has already showed what it needs to counter such attack simply because they are that much faster than a regular ninja's arm or because they possess ability that make physical attack close to meaningless or because they planed ahead the use of Bunshin making impossible to know which target is the good one.

For example imagine Sasuke with Hiraishin the first time he faced Lee. That would barely change anything.
Sasuke's body was still too slow to deal with Lee's speed and during the little time he would need to move his hand in order to stab Lee, Lee would have kicked the hell out of him.

It doesn't meant this jutsu isn't a great asset because it's one of the most useful supplementary jutsu of the show but it's certainley no alpha and omega jutsu.
I am not saying giving it to Konohamaru of 2.5 years ago, but for instance the genin version of Lee. The jutsu itself has a surprise factor, that can give an advantage to you even if you are not the fastest (remember the first fight between Kakashi and Itachi, the teleportation should be faster than Itachi's movements, or what Kakashi's eye can catch, and the last time Kakashi barely dodged it, if I remember correctly).

Also, I believe we need to consider the person using that jutsu to be completely in control of that jutsu, knowing its advantages and disadvantages perfectly well (even Naruto can learn Rasengan, that shouldn't be a big deal), and in that case, for the example of Sasuke-Lee, that would change something. The easiest that comes to my mind is to use it to escape first, then to prepare for action, and attack Lee when he is still in the air, I think Sasuke is capable of coming up with a plan like that.
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Old 2006-12-03, 14:57   Link #36
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I am not saying giving it to Konohamaru of 2.5 years ago, but for instance the genin version of Lee. The jutsu itself has a surprise factor, that can give an advantage to you even if you are not the fastest (remember the first fight between Kakashi and Itachi, the teleportation should be faster than Itachi's movements, or what Kakashi's eye can catch, and the last time Kakashi barely dodged it, if I remember correctly).
You guys are deaf. The movement is FLAWLESS, yes. However the "kill" is dependent on the user. WHEN YOU TELEPORT, ITS NOT INSTANT END. You have to attack and kill them. If they are faster than you, it wont happen. Thats the point.

If you are immune to damage (kimmimaro) it wont work on you. If you are faster than speedy gonzales (rock lee, gai) it wont work on you. If your body cannot be permanently destroyed or cannot be critically damaged (orochimaru, kabuto, sasori) it wont work on you.

The seal in itself does not kill the opponent the user that comes out of the seal does. But if the user isnt competent enough ...
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Old 2006-12-03, 15:18   Link #37
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
You guys are deaf. The movement is FLAWLESS, yes. However the "kill" is dependent on the user. WHEN YOU TELEPORT, ITS NOT INSTANT END. You have to attack and kill them. If they are faster than you, it wont happen. Thats the point.

If you are immune to damage (kimmimaro) it wont work on you. If you are faster than speedy gonzales (rock lee, gai) it wont work on you. If your body cannot be permanently destroyed or cannot be critically damaged (orochimaru, kabuto, sasori) it wont work on you.

The seal in itself does not kill the opponent the user that comes out of the seal does. But if the user isnt competent enough ...
I see your point. The move is not flawless, but I think you are giving to little credit to the Hiraishin and too much credit to the ability of others. It's true that there is a little time between the teleportation and the attack that follows it, but it that is a miniscule amount. We saw in the KG how close Hiraishin gets you to the enemy. When Yondaime appeared behind that rock-nin he was practically breathing down his neck, his kunai was already at his throat. You'd need reaction speed almost to the point of precognition to avoid that. You can't just assume that Gai, Lee or Itachi have that kind of speed, their movements are obviously fast but not instantaneous or else they'd be able to dodge everything. Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Sasori can all be critically be damaged. Neither Kabuto or Oro can recover from a stab to the brain or heart and Sasori can't survive a hit to his weak spot, so Hiraishin would be applicable to them as long as the user hit one of those spots. Kimimaro is only invulnerable when he has enough reaction time to cover his tissue with bone, otherwise he can be killed the same as any other ninja
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Old 2006-12-03, 16:16   Link #38
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
You guys are deaf. The movement is FLAWLESS, yes. However the "kill" is dependent on the user. WHEN YOU TELEPORT, ITS NOT INSTANT END. You have to attack and kill them. If they are faster than you, it wont happen. Thats the point.

If you are immune to damage (kimmimaro) it wont work on you. If you are faster than speedy gonzales (rock lee, gai) it wont work on you. If your body cannot be permanently destroyed or cannot be critically damaged (orochimaru, kabuto, sasori) it wont work on you.

The seal in itself does not kill the opponent the user that comes out of the seal does. But if the user isnt competent enough ...
Very good, you have succeeded to learn the meaning of the jutsu; Yondaime's jutsu is a movement based jutsu.

However, you are completely missing the point that this jutsu is not a quick movement jutsu, hence, you have no way to know where the user will pop up until he appears. I suggest you to check Itachi vs. Kakashi fight again, to see how the Sharingan and your quickness may not be enough to avoid an attack if the opponent has a movement level faster than you (replace Itachi's jutsu with Yondaime's jutsu plus a technique). Yondaime's jutsu provides you the mean to achieve that kind of speed without your opponent being able to notice you until the instant you are about the hit him.

Your opponent might be able to dodge, no one argues against that, but the jutsu gives you the upper hand in acting first.

Also, it is highly possible that, if your opponent's body has those kind of characteristics, then using a technique besides Yondaime's jutsu would be more useful than just using that technique alone - using Rasengan by just running to your opponent and using Rasengan after instantly appearing next to your opponent.
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Old 2006-12-03, 17:04   Link #39
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Ill reply both of you in this post.

1.) Kabuto's internal organs got liquified and he regened them. I doubt a stab would would create that much problem.

2.) Oro was ripped in 1/2 by Kyuubi, and he regened. Odds are .. if you didnt completely decapitate him in that one blow (which is debatable, considering the Kyuubi-Oro fight) he would get up and walk away.

3.) No .. you cannot assume the opponent is completely susceptible to whatever attack Yondaime has. Theres always rogue factors that could force the match to go the wrong way. Hell, how do you know the opponent isnt holding a kunai over the tag, waiting for Yondaime to appear? : /

Dont assume that because you are close quarters its over. Hell, Yondaime could have got the tag on a Kage Bushin, a puppet or some other ninja utility without knowing. Theres also the position switch jutsu where you substitute your body with something else (logs, whatever). Im sure the chakra required to do that will be less than Yondie's move. Hence you can outstamina him that way. ~___~

So if you arent arguing that theres a chance the opponent can dodge, whats the post about? Ive acknowledged the movement aspect is flawless, yet it doesnt mean you are DEAD when you get the tag on you. It isnt over till its actually over.
Meaning ... if the tagger has not yet killed you, the fight is far from over.

Close Range =/= death.
Neither does a damn Kunai for that matter.
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Old 2006-12-03, 17:42   Link #40
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
Ill reply both of you in this post.

1.) Kabuto's internal organs got liquified and he regened them. I doubt a stab would would create that much problem.
Ok. What if he was stabbed in the brain? He would be able to regenerate himself when the organ that controls all of his life functions was run through with a weapon?

Quote:
2.) Oro was ripped in 1/2 by Kyuubi, and he regened. Odds are .. if you didnt completely decapitate him in that one blow (which is debatable, considering the Kyuubi-Oro fight) he would get up and walk away.
Oro can do some freaky things with his body, but I doubt even he could survive his brain or heart being pierced. Otherwise, he'd be even more indestructible than Hidan, since he can already regenerate.


Quote:
So if you arent arguing that theres a chance the opponent can dodge, whats the post about? Ive acknowledged the movement aspect is flawless, yet it doesnt mean you are DEAD when you get the tag on you. It isnt over till its actually over.
Meaning ... if the tagger has not yet killed you, the fight is far from over.

Close Range =/= death.
Neither does a damn Kunai for that matter.

I can't speak for others, but I wasn't arguing that teleporation=instant kill. I was arguing because your post seemed to make some characters immune to Hiraishin:

Gai, Lee - too fast to be hit. When it's apparent they can be hit because they've all been struck before by moves much slower than Hiraishin

Oro, Kabuto, Sasori- can't be killed. When Sasori was killed by a sword run through his weak spot (yes, I realize he hesitated and "let" himself be killed). Kabuto and Oro I discussed above.

Kimimaro-invulnerable to physical injury. Only if he has the time to protect his vulnerable areas with bone.

Hiraishin can be used to an advantage even against these characters although they might have a better chance of countering or avoiding it
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