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Old 2006-12-04, 16:15   Link #81
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
I still conjecture that he tapped into a water source underground or nearby. Why? Because Nidaime also brought water forth from his mouth on top of a roof, and it was exclaimed this was amazing even for a hokage specializing in water because there is absolutely no water around.

If this isn't true, then for some reason Kisame by far is better than Nidaime. Him being better than a hokage that specialized in water, that seems a bit rediculous..
Why not? I mean, been Hokage does not mean that automatically have to be the best of each Jutsu there is, even if you are specialize in it, is the same as Saying that Shodaime should be better at genjutsu than Itahci, just because Shodaime used a genjutsu.

Besides the abbiltiy to make such huge water jutsu is more because of your raw power, rather than your talent, as we don’t even know who is better in terms of raw power between Shodaime and Kisame, but Ill put my money on Kisame.

And I mean, ins't enough that there is no water around to show you this Jutsu was made wiht no surroinding water whatsoever? isn't enouhg wiht the fact that this Jutsu came from Kisames body?

BUt you have to create a unknow and umentioned source of water, Heck, I can say the same: The water Nidaime took was really from the Water pipes that were in the bulding where he fought. And that the ANBU was not even aware of this.

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Perhaps he isn't better at water, but has more chakra to convert to water, like some already stated. But why would it be so amazing that someone spewed forth as much as the second did, it wasn't really that much, and why did they bother mentioning there was no water around...
Ill say that Kisame spit more water than Nindaime, Kisame created a freaking Lake, Nidaime did not.

and then Team Gai did not mention there was no water around, because it was already obvius there wasn't.
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:16   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
I still conjecture that he tapped into a water source underground or nearby. Why? Because Nidaime also brought water forth from his mouth on top of a roof, and it was exclaimed this was amazing even for a hokage specializing in water because there is absolutely no water around.

If this isn't true, then for some reason Kisame by far is better than Nidaime. Him being better than a hokage that specialized in water, that seems a bit rediculous..
How can Nidaime doing that can be used as someone not being able to do it? Kisame is considered to be a strong ninja, who may possibly have more chakra than Nidaime. And, as long as what Nidaime is used does not require any kind of bloodline ability, then anyone with the strength should be able to do it. Kisame showed he has that strength.
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:23   Link #83
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It will be easier if i lay down an example for my thought. Let me take Katon jutsu, you create fire from nothing. When Sasuke first starts he does a decent sized katon, which grows as he gets better. So you could say he is improving, thus able to make a more destructive Katon.

If you apply this to a suiton, if both Kisame and Nidaime had no water to work with, Kisame's jutsu was by far more impressive.
My restructured thought. It doesn't seem to be how much chakra he has, because the performance of a jutsu isn't reliant on that, but how skilled you are at it.
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:32   Link #84
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You also have to consider the position. Kisame had much more space to work with. The fight on the roof was limited to the roof because of the barrier. It'd be foolish to drown everyone. So I can't say whose is more impressive. Kisame covered an entire field, but that goes to show his weakness. He must only use water attacks since that his what he feels he has to do to fight gai. This is like gaara carrying sand on his back. It indicates how necessary the sand is to gaara's fighting style. In the same way this indicates how necessary the presence of water is to kisame's fighting style. He may initially create it, but that doesn't mean that he only fights with newly created water. He may be capable of high level water jutsu but it seems he's most comfortable when there is a source of water nearby for him to manipulate, such a handicap it is that he has to manufacture one. The 2nd hokage though demonstrated powerful genjutsu* that worked on even the 3rd who I presume is trained in genjutsu countering. This shows that he may have other kage level skills that don't utilize water and that would make him much more dangerous in my book. Think about it like this: maybe he chose water because its the perfect elemental counter, as opposed to kisame who would choose water because its the only counter he knows! But yeah I'd pick him over kisame any day of the week. But kisame's existence should make you wonder that if kisame isn't powerful enough to be the mizukage of the water village, just who is this guy who puts even kisame to shame?



*I've always questioned this. Technically its labeled as genjutsu, but I remember an image where on the outside were the anbu members and they too saw darkness within the sealed area on the roof. If we can see (that is outside observers) how can it be genjutsu which affects the individual? Maybe it was just something in the anime.
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:37   Link #85
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You also have to consider the position. Kisame had much more space to work with. The fight on the roof was limited to the roof because of the barrier. It'd be foolish to drown everyone. So I can't say whose is more impressive. Kisame covered an entire field, but that goes to show his weakness. He must only use water attacks since that his what he feels he has to do to fight gai. This is like gaara carrying sand on his back. It indicates how necessary the sand is to gaara's fighting style. In the same way this indicates how necessary the presence of water is to kisame's fighting style. He may initially create it, but that doesn't mean that he only fights with newly created water. He may be capable of high level water jutsu but it seems he's most comfortable when there is a source of water nearby for him to manipulate, such a handicap it is that he has to manufacture one. The 2nd hokage though demonstrated powerful genjutsu* that worked on even the 3rd who I presume is trained in genjutsu countering. This shows that he may have other kage level skills that don't utilize water and that would make him much more dangerous in my book. Think about it like this: maybe he chose water because its the perfect elemental counter, as opposed to kisame who would choose water because its the only counter he knows! But yeah I'd pick him over kisame any day of the week. But kisame's existence should make you wonder that if kisame isn't powerful enough to be the mizukage of the water village, just who is this guy who puts even kisame to shame?



*I've always questioned this. Technically its labeled as genjutsu, but I remember an image where on the outside were the anbu members and they too saw darkness within the sealed area on the roof. If we can see (that is outside observers) how can it be genjutsu which affects the individual? Maybe it was just something in the anime.
A problem i am running into is this : the 3rd barfs up earth when he uses the land/earth flip jutsu. Wouldnt this be impressive since there is no earth around. Same with a large fireball. In the case of Katon there is almost never any fire for you to manipulate anyways.

In reality, yes the second used enough power for the technique to stop the fireball, but maybe that ninja was just really sucky because it really isn't that impressive.
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:37   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
My restructured thought. It doesn't seem to be how much chakra he has, because the performance of a jutsu isn't reliant on that, but how skilled you are at it.

Ermm, The performance isnít reliant of the Chakra, however the power of the Jutsu is directly tied to the Chakra it has, as stated one hundred gazillion times.

NIndaime Jutsu seems to had less Chakra, whereas Ksiames had more. Meaning Kisameís was more powerful.

Either way Maybe Kisames Jutsu is slightly different from Nindaimes Jutsu, and maybe this is the reason why Nidaime jutsu was not as strong as Kisameís
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Old 2006-12-04, 16:51   Link #87
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Ermm, The performance isn’t reliant of the Chakra, however the power of the Jutsu is directly tied to the Chakra it has, as stated one hundred gazillion times.

NIndaime Jutsu seems to had less Chakra, whereas Ksiames had more. Meaning Kisame’s was more powerful.

Either way Maybe Kisames Jutsu is slightly different from Nindaimes Jutsu, and maybe this is the reason why Nidaime jutsu was not as strong as Kisame’s
Not sure what you are stating there... but Sasuke's Katon is constantly growing, and it is not because his chakra capacity is getting larger, but because he is improving his Katon jutsu's in general.

Well yes, they are different jutsus if you look at both. If an element is not readily available for the jutsu, an advanced technique aparently is to barf it up and use it simultaneously.
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Old 2006-12-04, 17:07   Link #88
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Not sure what you are stating there... but Sasuke's Katon is constantly growing, and it is not because his chakra capacity is getting larger, but because he is improving his Katon jutsu's in general.
Sasuke Katon Jutsu were progressively getting bigger because Sasuke Chakra pool is Constantly getting bigger in otehr words he is giving those Katon Jutsu more Chakra to make them bigger. The more experience and training you get, the more your Chakra Pool will grow.

In perspective, The power of a Jutsu is directly tied on The amount of Chakra you give to it, But the amount you create is tied to how you control the Chakra Molding. And poor control over the Chakra molding and you could end up not performing the Jutsu correctly or not with the power intended.

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Well yes, they are different jutsus if you look at both. If an element is not readily available for the jutsu, an advanced technique aparently is to barf it up and use it simultaneously.
I did not understand anything you said here.
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Old 2006-12-04, 17:59   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
A problem i am running into is this : the 3rd barfs up earth when he uses the land/earth flip jutsu. Wouldnt this be impressive since there is no earth around. Same with a large fireball. In the case of Katon there is almost never any fire for you to manipulate anyways.

In reality, yes the second used enough power for the technique to stop the fireball, but maybe that ninja was just really sucky because it really isn't that impressive.
I'd say yes. That too is incredibly impressive. Imagine if they were fighting on top of a lake and he did that earth jutsu. We'd be just as impressed. Thats why in my other post I said be reasonable. Kage level jutsus seems to override normal restrictions and thats what makes them so powerful.

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Ermm, The performance isn’t reliant of the Chakra, however the power of the Jutsu is directly tied to the Chakra it has, as stated one hundred gazillion times.

NIndaime Jutsu seems to had less Chakra, whereas Kisames had more. Meaning Kisame’s was more powerful.

Either way Maybe Kisames Jutsu is slightly different from Nindaimes Jutsu, and maybe this is the reason why Nidaime jutsu was not as strong as Kisame’s
This is true. More chakra equals a more explosive effect most of the time. However you should understand that some attacks can be deadly and difficult to perform even though they may use less chakra. Rasengan is a good example. How about the 2nd Hokage's genjutu? Or hidan's transformation? Or kakazu's shielding? The point I'm trying to make is perhaps in general there is a correlation between chakra out put and the explosiveness of the attack, but not always. I'm not sure why we are discussing this however. it should be apparent that the attacks used by kisame and by the 2nd hokage were used with different purposes in mind. If you doubt the 2nds power as a ninja, you shouldnt. He was a hokage during war time and apparently a seriously respected one. I believe he was the one who issued in the era of peace by more or less winning the war or something. He's no joker. Thats my point.


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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Sasuke Katon Jutsu were progressively getting bigger because Sasuke Chakra pool is Constantly getting bigger in otehr words he is giving those Katon Jutsu more Chakra to make them bigger. The more experience and training you get, the more your Chakra Pool will grow.

In perspective, The power of a Jutsu is directly tied on The amount of Chakra you give to it, But the amount you create is tied to how you control the Chakra Molding. And poor control over the Chakra molding and you could end up not performing the Jutsu correctly or not with the power intended.
Not necessarily. Difficulty in jutsu can not only mean they use more chakra but that also they may use the same amount of chakra but in a more efficient manner. I liken it to nuclear fuel. Adding more uranium can give a bigger bang. In the same fashion, using the same initial amount of much much purer uranium can also achieve the same affect. Remember the discussion about the differences between sasuke and sakura and naruto. How sakura had such good chakra control that she made more clones with less chakra? If sakura would use the same jutsu as naruto and used the same amount of chakra it may seem to be more explosive than his. it may seem that its more powerful but really its the same jutsu except her use of chakra allows her to do more with it. So while naruto forms 10 clones, she may form 15 clones. or naruto forms a giant fireball with x amount of chakra, she forms the a supergiant fireball with the same x amount of chakra. I use naruto and sakura as examples but really I'm talking about sasuke at different points in time.
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Old 2006-12-04, 19:41   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
I still conjecture that he tapped into a water source underground or nearby. Why? Because Nidaime also brought water forth from his mouth on top of a roof, and it was exclaimed this was amazing even for a hokage specializing in water because there is absolutely no water around.

If this isn't true, then for some reason Kisame by far is better than Nidaime. Him being better than a hokage that specialized in water, that seems a bit rediculous..
Ok, you can't compare Kisame to a Hokage of Konoha, really you can't because being a Hokage in simple terms means, your the best ninja in the village (of Konoha) Kisame is not a part of Konoha. Just because your the Hokage of that Village doesn’t mean your the best every where.

Basically, Look at it this way, what if everyone in the Village was weaker then Konohamaru? Konohamaru = Hokage, see my point?

Ok, next this debate took a turn, because right now your discussing jutsu's first lets not forget what Nidaime used was a B RANK Jutsu, Kisame's Suiton: Bakushouha Looks at least A Rank to me (and it was not the same Jutsu as Nidaime), yes although Rank does not directly determine the power of a Jutsu, but it does slightly. What I'm getting at is, are you seriously telling me some one like the Nidaime could not do what Kisame did? Hell yes he can, he probably has more then enough A Rank and S Rank water Jutsu's to do THAT and THEN some. For all we know, Nidaime's A Rank or S Rank Jutsu's could create enough water for an ocean.

None the less, the discussion was if Kisame's affinity is water, not the comparison of how much water some one can spit out Nidaime or Kisame. You can't prove it because in order to prove this, both Nidaime and Ksiame would have to use "Suiton: Bakushouha" or at least the same Jutsu, then you can really see who can spit out more water.
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Old 2006-12-04, 22:04   Link #91
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Ok, you can't compare Kisame to a Hokage of Konoha, really you can't because being a Hokage in simple terms means, your the best ninja in the village (of Konoha) Kisame is not a part of Konoha. Just because your the Hokage of that Village doesn’t mean your the best every where.

Basically, Look at it this way, what if everyone in the Village was weaker then Konohamaru? Konohamaru = Hokage, see my point?

Ok, next this debate took a turn, because right now your discussing jutsu's first lets not forget what Nidaime used was a B RANK Jutsu, Kisame's Suiton: Bakushouha Looks at least A Rank to me (and it was not the same Jutsu as Nidaime), yes although Rank does not directly determine the power of a Jutsu, but it does slightly. What I'm getting at is, are you seriously telling me some one like the Nidaime could not do what Kisame did? Hell yes he can, he probably has more then enough A Rank and S Rank water Jutsu's to do THAT and THEN some.

None the less, the discussion was if Kisame's affinity is water, not the comparison of how much water some one can spit out Nidaime or Kisame. You can't prove it because in order to prove this, both Nidaime and Ksiame would have to use "Suiton: Bakushouha" or at least a the same Jutsu, then you can really see who can spit out more water.
Wao...In short you said exactly what I had in mi mind, that deserves a Cookie.

Suna, this is to respond to your post:


I get what you said about jutsu and their reach and power, however what I said about Jutsu and Chakra was about The same Jutsu (lets say Suiton Bakushouha) and how the power of this justu will depend on the amount of Chkara this Jutsu has, the more Chakra this Jutsu has, the bigger or more powerful the Jutsu will be.

As Otakuo mentioned about NIndaime, Yes, he was the HOkage, and He should had been Incredibly strong; my point were in no way to degrade Nindaime, rather, that I used NIndaime as a measuring stick to show the degree of power Kisame has in his water Jutsu, that can be comparable to a Hokage.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-12-04 at 22:14.
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Old 2006-12-05, 17:44   Link #92
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definitely. even more consider this:

kisame formed the lake of water using a body that could only use 30 percent of his chakra for the entire fight! that lake alone was like what 5%? 2%? amazing! In fact its too amazing... Kisame is a shark looking guy. Maybe he has an genetic ability to just make water or something... I don't know. I just find it hard to believe that the creating of so much water only drained a minor tiny bit of this guys total chakra! Absurd!
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Old 2006-12-05, 18:18   Link #93
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Wao...In short you said exactly what I had in mi mind, that deserves a Cookie.
^_^ Lol, thanks for the rep, coming from you I should hope it means something eh . Well, at least now we know what happens when two people like us agree on the same thing lol. I'll be sure to hit you back, people need to start using the rep system more.

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definitely. even more consider this:

kisame formed the lake of water using a body that could only use 30 percent of his chakra for the entire fight! that lake alone was like what 5%? 2%? amazing! In fact its too amazing... Kisame is a shark looking guy. Maybe he has an genetic ability to just make water or something... I don't know. I just find it hard to believe that the creating of so much water only drained a minor tiny bit of this guys total chakra! Absurd!
True, true, but still no one knows the set amount of Chakra required for "Suiton: Bakushouha" I mean, even though he spit out that much water, what if thatís what the Jutsu's specific's are? To spit out that much water.

So yea, got to have some one else use Suiton: Bakushouha, or at least the same Jutsu as Kisame to see if the amount of water, is really due to Kisame's chakra / skill, or the Jutsu it self.
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Old 2006-12-05, 20:49   Link #94
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Somehow I doubt that. Kisame has a lot of chakra. If 30 percent is already equal to naruto when he draws the kyubi chakra, thats already maybe 5 or 6 times a normal person. And thats just 30 percent.

I don't think there's any jutsu that puts out a set amount of anything. Can you think of one? I certainly can't. So far all jutsus I know of can be altered by adding more chakra.
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Old 2006-12-05, 20:59   Link #95
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Somehow I doubt that. Kisame has a lot of chakra. If 30 percent is already equal to naruto when he draws the kyubi chakra, thats already maybe 5 or 6 times a normal person. And thats just 30 percent.

I don't think there's any jutsu that puts out a set amount of anything. Can you think of one? I certainly can't. So far all jutsus I know of can be altered by adding more chakra.
That was part of my problem. Certainly the second could have made more water, making his following attack more effective. But he probably couldn't aparently, because doing as much as he did is quite a feat, and his max (with no water available to manipulate).

Kisame eclipses that by a lot, since he was only at 30%. Oh well, perhaps it is part of his mutation/heritage that allows him to create so much water.
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