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Old 2006-12-05, 18:14   Link #61
Suna no tate
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Old 2006-12-05, 18:14   Link #62
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
One of the things I never understood is why the 4th never taught the jutsu to anyone. I mean there are lots of jounin in konoha and a few kage level ninja. Everyone is basically on the same team. For such a powerful technique to remain just in his hands seems foolish. (The same goes for the death summoning technique). I'm not for teaching it to genin, but to me if anyone, anyone is capable of learning it, that person should at least be able to apply and prove himself worthy of it so he too can use it in konoha's defense. Such a technique would certainly have prevented the escape of villains like itachi and would help konoha fight and protect itself and its allies. Dare I say it? The 4th was a fool! At least the other hokages had the sense to write their sacred and forbidden jutsus down in a scroll in case they were needed in the future. The 4th was foolish enough to let his jutsu be lost forever...

Who said the jutsu was lost forever?

Yondaime's disciple Kakashi has seen it, and know how it works as Yondaime taught him everything about it. Remember that Kakashi knew rasengan and it took him 300 chapters to finally show it when he had it all the whole time.

Same thing with Jiraiya, he was Yondaime sensei and Yondaime taugh Jiraiya rasengan but that doesn't seem to be Jiraiya's style.

I think the one that knows Hiraishin is kakashi.
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Old 2006-12-05, 18:30   Link #63
Suna no tate
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Well I see what you're saying, but I like to operate with the principle that people act according to their best interests. That is if its to your advantage to use a technique you use it. There have been a million situations where it there were 100 points in favor of kakashi using the hiraishin and zero points against, yet he didn't use it. A good example would be when he was rushing to save naruto and sasuke from killing each other but got there late and sasuke escapted. If he knew that jutsu, then he would have used it. Or in the zabuza fight it would have been useful. The point is, if your life is in danger or someone elses life is in danger you typically do everything you can regardless of the risk (ie kakashi using the MS despite the chakra drain and so on). Against deidara it'd have been handy. Why use the MS if he has hiraishin in his back pocket? Against itachi early on, why swim to rescue kurenai? Just use hiraishin. Why rush to get to sand village? Just use hiraishin. And so on.


I think since so far kakashi very well most likely doesn't know it. Now for his revelation of rasengan its different as rasengan isn't probably all that much more useful than any of his other techniques. Its understandable if he chooses not to use it. Its not understandable if kakashi chooses not to use hiraishin. Its only logical to conclude that he doesn't know it.

In addition, for this reason I kinda doubt if kakashi can use shika's shadow bind. People say he can but I'm dubious. The reason is, quite simple, shadow bind is the most useful technique shown in the series. I'd out hiraishin even 2nd to it. Kakashi has had time and time again where it was to his advantage to use it if he knew it and yet he didnt.
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Old 2006-12-05, 18:48   Link #64
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Doesn't that jutsu(telepotation) require a large ammount of chakra?

Maybe thats why he doesn't use it.(If he has it)
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Old 2006-12-05, 19:11   Link #65
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says who? and so what? he has no problem using the MS when necessary. Or chidori when its not necessary. In fact to tell the truth, chidori is almost never necessary.
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Old 2006-12-05, 19:15   Link #66
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Well I see what you're saying, but I like to operate with the principle that people act according to their best interests. That is if its to your advantage to use a technique you use it. There have been a million situations where it there were 100 points in favor of kakashi using the hiraishin and zero points against, yet he didn't use it. A good example would be when he was rushing to save naruto and sasuke from killing each other but got there late and sasuke escapted. If he knew that jutsu, then he would have used it. Or in the zabuza fight it would have been useful.
He needs to place a tag on Naruto or Sasuke, plus he didn't know about the event that was about to happen. He can't predict the future you know


Quote:
The point is, if your life is in danger or someone elses life is in danger you typically do everything you can regardless of the risk (ie kakashi using the MS despite the chakra drain and so on). Against deidara it'd have been handy. Why use the MS if he has hiraishin in his back pocket?
Again, he didn't place tag on Deidara, he never had the chance. You forget you can't hiraishin just like that. There must be a tag place on that location first before you teleport.

[quote]
Against itachi early on, why swim to rescue kurenai? Just use hiraishin. Why rush to get to sand village? Just use hiraishin. And so on.

Dude, i seem you completely forgot that you need a tag for Hiraishin to work.


Quote:
I think since so far kakashi very well most likely doesn't know it. Now for his revelation of rasengan its different as rasengan isn't probably all that much more useful than any of his other techniques. Its understandable if he chooses not to use it. Its not understandable if kakashi chooses not to use hiraishin. Its only logical to conclude that he doesn't know it.
Just like people though that rasengan wasn't copiable, just like they said, is kakashi knew rasengan he would have used it already.


Quote:
In addition, for this reason I kinda doubt if kakashi can use shika's shadow bind. People say he can but I'm dubious. The reason is, quite simple, shadow bind is the most useful technique shown in the series. I'd out hiraishin even 2nd to it. Kakashi has had time and time again where it was to his advantage to use it if he knew it and yet he didnt.

Sorry, but Shika jutsu is not a bloodline, so Kakashi can copied it.

Its not that kakashi doesn't know those jutsus is that he simply doesn't used them.
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Old 2006-12-05, 19:21   Link #67
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Just as LostOnTheU-rturn said you got to place a tag on the person to use it, and from all the fights I've seen with Kakashi it wasn't needed.
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Old 2006-12-05, 19:24   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Mangekyo View Post
Just as LostOnTheU-rturn said you got to place a tag on the person to use it, and from all the fights I've seen with Kakashi it wasn't needed.
You don't need to place the tag on the person to use it, you need to place the tag on something, like the kunai given to Kakashi by Yondaime.
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Old 2006-12-05, 19:31   Link #69
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
You don't need to place the tag on the person to use it, you need to place the tag on something, like the kunai given to Kakashi by Yondaime.

You took it out of context, i know how HIraishin works.

Its a tag that can be placed on anyone and one anything solid.

My point was refering to Sasuke and Naruto when he couldn't cat up to them since Kakashi didn't place a tag on them.

With Deidara, i didn't see him throwing a kunai because he migth not have the time for that, or simply miss it, since Deidara is moving a great speed.
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Old 2006-12-05, 19:34   Link #70
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if one s speed is greater then other persons jutsu speed then t will be over before u can use hiraishin...

people still think hiraishin as an instant teleportation.
it is not
you need to ,at least, pull a kunai wrapped with a seal and throw it.
mean while you can be dead for 6-7 times?
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Old 2006-12-05, 20:45   Link #71
Suna no tate
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I'm well aware of the mechanics of the jutsu. Saying he didn't follow the mechanic hindered him doesn't really address my point (which is that he doesn't even know the mechanics of the jutsu to where he can do it). If you honestly believe kakashi knows the jutsu answer these questions:

Against zabuza why didn't he use the tag as soon as the battle started?
Against itachi why didn't he use the tag?
Against itachi the 2nd time?
Against deidara?
When chasing sasuke and naruto, why not throw the tag several hundred feet forwards in advance and teleport to it (repeat till he catches up)?
Why don't people talk about kakashi's likeness the fourth?
Why does kakashi not use it more often?

My point is he doesn't know it. The fourth in all of those situations would use the jutsu. In fact he used the jutsu to the point that he got a nickname from it. You don't get nicknames based on jutsus from jutsus you use sparingly. The fourth isn't nicknamed "death god summoner". That'd be stupid. What is kakashi's nickname? The copy ninja. Why? almost every time he fights he pulls out that copy eye and uses it. Anyway, Kakashi doesn't know the jutsu. In fact most likely, no one does (unless the fourth actually did write in down in a scroll. then it becomes a question of why they'd keep it away from konoha's best ninja. I think kakashi certainly would be worthy of it. Same as Gai.)
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Old 2006-12-05, 21:16   Link #72
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Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
You took it out of context, i know how HIraishin works.

Its a tag that can be placed on anyone and one anything solid.

My point was refering to Sasuke and Naruto when he couldn't cat up to them since Kakashi didn't place a tag on them.

With Deidara, i didn't see him throwing a kunai because he migth not have the time for that, or simply miss it, since Deidara is moving a great speed.
And my point was, it doesn't have to be tag placed on them, but, maybe a kunai or something of that some sort could also be used.
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Old 2006-12-05, 21:23   Link #73
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I'm well aware of the mechanics of the jutsu. Saying he didn't follow the mechanic hindered him doesn't really address my point (which is that he doesn't even know the mechanics of the jutsu to where he can do it). If you honestly believe kakashi knows the jutsu answer these questions:

Against zabuza why didn't he use the tag as soon as the battle started?
It would be useless. He wouldn't be able to see him.

Kakashi had the best counter. Let himself get hit, and then send his dogs to track down Zabuza and tie him down.

Quote:
Against itachi why didn't he use the tag?
Against itachi the 2nd time?
So that Itachi could copied it? He won't take that risk.

Quote:
Against deidara?
I already explain it. Deidara was moving at fast speed, and the best way to take him out was MS.


Quote:
When chasing sasuke and naruto, why not throw the tag several hundred feet forwards in advance and teleport to it (repeat till he catches up)?
It would he had Paku tracking down Sasuke and Naruto. If Paku skipped the track/smell, it all be useless.

Quote:
Why don't people talk about kakashi's likeness the fourth?
Why would they? Kakashsi is Kakashi. Yondaime is Yondaime. Kakashi has his own reputation, and is sometime compared to Sakumo his father, a shinobi who's reputation overshadowed the Sannin. This is stated by Yondaime.

Quote:
Why does kakashi not use it more often?
Because Kishi might wants it for later, just like he wanted to show that Kakashi could do rasengan after 300+ chapters

Quote:
My point is he doesn't know it.
My point is that he might.

Quote:
The fourth in all of those situations would use the jutsu. In fact he used the jutsu to the point that he got a nickname from it.
Yondiame is Yondaime. Kakashi is Kakashi.

Quote:
You don't get nicknames based on jutsus from jutsus you use sparingly. The fourth isn't nicknamed "death god summoner". That'd be stupid. What is kakashi's nickname? The copy ninja. Why? almost every time he fights he pulls out that copy eye and uses it.
You are using bad examples.

Kakashi is known as Copy Ninja Kakashi, because he can copies jutsus like the Uchiha can. Guess what he copied Rasengan, and you know what, he migth have also copied hiraishin, after all he has seen it and know how it works.

Quote:
Anyway, Kakashi doesn't know the jutsu. In fact most likely, no one does (unless the fourth actually did write in down in a scroll. then it becomes a question of why they'd keep it away from konoha's best ninja. I think kakashi certainly would be worthy of it. Same as Gai.)

Gai wouldn't need Hiraishin.

You forget that Kakashi has seen this jutsu, he knows how hitworks, he was Yodnaime's disciple, and copied rasengan. I say the chances of Kakashi of having either copied or learned Hiraishin is very high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
And my point was, it doesn't have to be tag placed on them, but, maybe a kunai or something of that some sort could also be used.

reread what i said.


Its a tag that can be placed on anyone and one anything solid.

By anyone i mean humans/animals etc.

By anything i mean kunais, ground, paper, etc
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Old 2006-12-05, 21:49   Link #74
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
reread what i said.


Its a tag that can be placed on anyone and one anything solid.

By anyone i mean humans/animals etc.

By anything i mean kunais, ground, paper, etc
Did you read which post I replied to? And, if you had read it, then what do you expect me to say to you?
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Old 2006-12-05, 21:53   Link #75
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Did you read which post I replied to?
and then you replied to that post with your previous post

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And, if you had read it, then what do you expect me to say to you?
I was about to say that to you.
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Old 2006-12-05, 22:13   Link #76
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Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
and then you replied to that post with your previous post

I was about to say that to you.
I replied to make my post clear, cause it is obvious it doesn't go through in one try...
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Old 2006-12-06, 00:35   Link #77
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I replied to make my post clear, cause it is obvious it doesn't go through in one try...

which i then replied cause it is obvious it doesn't go through in one try...
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Old 2006-12-06, 01:00   Link #78
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Originally Posted by LostOnTheU-rturn View Post
which i then replied cause it is obvious it doesn't go through in one try...
You know, discussion among humans should involve more than "parrot-level word exchange", which normally lacks quality, reasoning, and creativity...
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Old 2006-12-06, 06:10   Link #79
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I am not saying giving it to Konohamaru of 2.5 years ago, but for instance the genin version of Lee. The jutsu itself has a surprise factor, that can give an advantage to you even if you are not the fastest (remember the first fight between Kakashi and Itachi, the teleportation should be faster than Itachi's movements, or what Kakashi's eye can catch, and the last time Kakashi barely dodged it, if I remember correctly).

Also, I believe we need to consider the person using that jutsu to be completely in control of that jutsu, knowing its advantages and disadvantages perfectly well (even Naruto can learn Rasengan, that shouldn't be a big deal), and in that case, for the example of Sasuke-Lee, that would change something. The easiest that comes to my mind is to use it to escape first, then to prepare for action, and attack Lee when he is still in the air, I think Sasuke is capable of coming up with a plan like that.
Coming with the plan most certainely but execute it? I don't think so.
At this point the speed difference was too high. Lee's first kick connected before Sasuke could do anything about it even if he knew it was coming because it was simply too fast. In this case it would be impossible to use a tag to teleport simply because Lee's actions happened way too fast for Sasuke to react in the slightest.

But anyway given your next posts I wonder if we are really adressing the same thing : the conclusion of my first post was that Hiraishin is always better than simple speed for it does.
What I adressed then is that if the user isn't fast and skilled as well the jutsu loses much of its potential and that even in the best conditions there are ways to deal with it.
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Old 2006-12-06, 11:10   Link #80
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What I adressed then is that if the user isn't fast and skilled as well the jutsu loses much of its potential and that even in the best conditions there are ways to deal with it.
How come it takes Hunter to say it before people accept it? Ive been saying it and giving scenarios and people are like ... "onoz. hirashin tag = instant ko no matter what" ...

I swear Ill change my name to Hunter someday and Impersonate him just so you guys can accept logic.
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