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Old 2006-12-06, 11:19   Link #81
MobiuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
.. saying Yondaime's jutsu giving clearly noticeable advantage to the user is equal to saying Yondaime's jutsu achieving instant kill.
Is English your first language? I dont mean this disrespectfully, but Im sure even a kid in grade 5 can read both phrases and determine theres a clear difference.
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Old 2006-12-06, 12:24   Link #82
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Coming with the plan most certainely but execute it? I don't think so.
At this point the speed difference was too high. Lee's first kick connected before Sasuke could do anything about it even if he knew it was coming because it was simply too fast. In this case it would be impossible to use a tag to teleport simply because Lee's actions happened way too fast for Sasuke to react in the slightest.
What if we are told that Yondaime's jutsu also allows the user to pop up anywhere he wants to around that tag? And, what if the user would use this to his advantage by restricting the movement of his opponent? As I said before, there are at least two unknows about the jutsu. In that case, its advantage might become overwhelming even against a speedy opponent. I am not saying the speed difference will not affect the result, cause given all the conditions I am sure there would be some speed level corresponding to each user that will neutralize the advantages of that jutsu. But, "is it a level that is realizable?", that is something I guess we cannot know.
Quote:
But anyway given your next posts I wonder if we are really adressing the same thing : the conclusion of my first post was that Hiraishin is always better than simple speed for it does.
What I adressed then is that if the user isn't fast and skilled as well the jutsu loses much of its potential and that even in the best conditions there are ways to deal with it.
We are addressing similar things. But, I am more interested in the unknowns related to the operation of Yondaime's jutsu. And, that is why I prefer to give more credit to Yondaime's jutsu and more advantage to the person who uses it.

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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
Is English your first language? I dont mean this disrespectfully, but Im sure even a kid in grade 5 can read both phrases and determine theres a clear difference.
Good, then "you" have "just" passed 5th grade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
How come it takes Hunter to say it before people accept it? Ive been saying it and giving scenarios and people are like ... "onoz. hirashin tag = instant ko no matter what" ...

I swear Ill change my name to Hunter someday and Impersonate him just so you guys can accept logic.
You know, you should not automatically assume people are agreeing to something without hearing it from them first. And, please don't change your name to Hunter, it will only make Michael Jackson's transformation look like a great miracle.

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2006-12-06 at 12:42.
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Old 2006-12-06, 12:48   Link #83
MobiuS
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Before you rush to the petty comments maybe you'd like to explain how:

- Yondaime's jutsu giving clearly noticeable advantage to the user
- Yondaime's jutsu achieving instant kill.

Can possibly mean the same thing. Unless you were referring to something else different (in which case would have been way offtopic considering the argument which has been goiing on for the last two pages) then Im not seeing the common ground.

AFAIK, the first means you get a lot of bonuses by using it, which wasnt being disputed at any point.

The second however means using Hirashin is an instant kill, which is what is being debated, considering theres always exceptions / weird variations in combat situations.
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Old 2006-12-06, 12:54   Link #84
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Originally Posted by tatami View Post
well hiraishin is not teleportation,it is teleportation through the seal thing. that makes his actions loose time...
I think I know what you are trying to say... but just in case teleportation is teleportation an doesn't lose time if you do it through a seal. I think you meant that he has to plant the seal, etc. and thus its not "instant" in that aspect.

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Originally Posted by tatami View Post
also if yondaime places a seal to a kunai and spot it somewhere back of his opponent,if the opponent is fast enough and put 1 step backwards yondi will be in trouble...
You can't be faster than 0 seconds and that's the key to this jutsu. I'm sure that Yondy was aware of this, I mean he pointed out the weakness in the sharingan right?

He prb has a to either go backward foward or on top of the person upside down.

Besides, from what it seems like he can be at multiple places at the same time with this jutsu or if you like teleport through each seal at 0 seconds = same thing.

There are some disadvantages though.

1) If the seal is seen than some can have a kage bunshin ready or a partner knowing that he will come. (I'm sure yondy can counter this, but point being he'd have to counter it since it is a flaw).

2) Something that goes 360 like kaiten, with some super crazy good anticipation.

3) If he has a an "escape" seal have a trap there.

4) If you know that he placed a seal on you; somehow switch it w/ a fake and than when yondy teleports to where you think you are instead you place the seal over a deep canyon or bed of spikes.

5) Suicide bomber! Some jutsu where if you get hit or make contact you blow up (or a kage bunshin!)


But with this said, someone dumb using this jutsu would get caught. I doubt yondy would be dumb enough to get caught in these b/c in all reality this is a MONSTER jutsu.

I think Naruto would be good with this jutsu b/c even though he is done he can think a couple of steps ahead and be rather innovative with his jutsu. He's got some "fighting smarts" but common sense ouch...

Kinda like those really book smart ppl that have no common sense.
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Old 2006-12-06, 13:04   Link #85
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
Before you rush to the petty comments maybe you'd like to explain how:

- Yondaime's jutsu giving clearly noticeable advantage to the user
- Yondaime's jutsu achieving instant kill.

Can possibly mean the same thing.
That is what I'd like to know, especially since my discussion on the first part seemed to be considered as the same as the second part.
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Old 2006-12-06, 13:44   Link #86
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s-class uchiha:
yes u get me correct...that hiraishin needs time to prepare =)

you cant be faster than 0 seconds yet you can move in 0 sec that makes them equal right?
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Old 2006-12-06, 15:27   Link #87
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Not all those weakness actually comply with the mechanics of the jutsu.


Quote:
1) If the seal is seen than some can have a kage bunshin ready or a partner knowing that he will come. (I'm sure yondy can counter this, but point being he'd have to counter it since it is a flaw).
Unless the partner or kage bunshin is literally right behind the person (within inches) with the seal at all times, there's no way they can reach their comrade in time. The time it takes to appear, land a lethal blow and teleport back is 1 or 2 seconds at most. I would go so far as to say that Hiraishin is stronger against large groups, because several seals can be used at once. That means you can't know when and where the user will appear and attack because he can attack anyone in a random fashion. Safety in numbers definitely didn't help the Rock-nin army in the KG


Quote:
2) Something that goes 360 like kaiten, with some super crazy good anticipation.
Really, really good anticipation. And if we're talking about Byakugan and Kaiten, Byakugan has a blind spot and it takes time to start the spinning motion for Kaiten.

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4) If you know that he placed a seal on you; somehow switch it w/ a fake and than when yondy teleports to where you think you are instead you place the seal over a deep canyon or bed of spikes.
Would someone realistically have time to set this up in the middle of a battle? How can you place the tag over a deep canyon in midair? It also assumes that some deathtrap like a canyon or bed of spikes is conveniently available. This isn't a Roadrunner cartoon.

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5) Suicide bomber! Some jutsu where if you get hit or make contact you blow up (or a kage bunshin!)
Every jutsu that uses physical contact runs this risk, but you don't see too many people being blown apart by exploding kage bunshin. That's not so much a natural weakness of the Hiraishin as it is part of the risk of using any close range jutsu.

I don't anyone mentioned these obviously tough match-ups for the Hiraishin. One would be opponents who travel mostly underground like Zetsu make Hiraishin useless for offense. Also, enemies who are airborne like Deidara can be high enough to be out of range of the kunai tags. Maybe
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Old 2006-12-06, 15:57   Link #88
MobiuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
That is what I'd like to know, especially since my discussion on the first part seemed to be considered as the same as the second part.
What first part? Isnt this the whole post? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...9&postcount=58

And no .. you said it. Im asking for clarification and you are acting like Im the one who made the comment. If you forgot your point or cant back it up ... just let it go.
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Old 2006-12-06, 16:10   Link #89
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
What first part? Isnt this the whole post? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...9&postcount=58

And no .. you said it. Im asking for clarification and you are acting like Im the one who made the comment. If you forgot your point or cant back it up ... just let it go.
I replied to that post made by guess who? Yes, you:

"Mobius: Which is what Ive been saying, yet these fanboys make it seem anyone with Hirashin instantly become perfect killers."

That came after the discussions that were mainly pointing out the advantage it can provide to the user rather than making them instant killers.
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Old 2006-12-06, 16:31   Link #90
MobiuS
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My confusion lies in the fact that I never made such a claim. Hell, Ive been debating the exact claim you made in your 1st sentence. The second one I cant make heads or tails of. : /
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Old 2006-12-06, 17:30   Link #91
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would you be kind enough to make your conversation from the PM? thats really annoying...
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Old 2006-12-06, 17:33   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
What if we are told that Yondaime's jutsu also allows the user to pop up anywhere he wants to around that tag? And, what if the user would use this to his advantage by restricting the movement of his opponent?
I disagree , Ill say that Hirashin is just a teleportation Jutsu in which Yondaime was very skilled at. I think if the one using the Jutsu is not good enough as the one been tagged, I don't think the Hirashin would be a sure kill.

Besides, we are forgetting about the part of IF the person using Hirashin could tag the intended opponent..Could Gemma place a tag to a Shinoby Like Itachi, who is predicting every of your movement? And Could this tag, after been placed be removed?

This Justsu is not the uber-mega-pwning justu as every Fanboy wants to think it is...as Hunter said this is not an "alpha and omega jutsu".
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Old 2006-12-06, 18:05   Link #93
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I disagree , Ill say that Hirashin is just a teleportation Jutsu in which Yondaime was very skilled at. I think if the one using the Jutsu is not good enough as the one been tagged, I don't think the Hirashin would be a sure kill.

Besides, we are forgetting about the part of IF the person using Hirashin could tag the intended opponent..Could Gemma place a tag to a Shinoby Like Itachi, who is predicting every of your movement? And Could this tag, after been placed be removed?

This Justsu is not the uber-mega-pwning justu as every Fanboy wants to think it is...as Hunter said this is not an "alpha and omega jutsu".
What if I tell you that the jutsu may allow the user to see his destination after using the jutsu, so that he can select the location to appear (as I said we don't know how the jutsu operates, so anything about its operation is based on pure speculation), in addition to Genma using multiple kunais to teleport from one to another, in a way that will not allow Sharingan to predict, as Yondaime's jutsu's destination would not be predictable by the Sharingan, and in the same way, allow him to find the right time to teleport near the Sharingan user, just to touch and go, so that he can use his plan to attack using the newly placed tag.

Anyway, at the beginning I specifically mentioned that, for the discussion to be applied, the user needs to be highly experienced in Yondaime's jutsu (meaning knowing every single strength and weakness of it perfectly).
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Old 2006-12-06, 18:20   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
What if I tell you that the jutsu may allow the user to see his destination after using the jutsu, so that he can select the location to appear (as I said we don't know how the jutsu operates, so anything about its operation is based on pure speculation),
It does not matter were the person can appear, If the person is not fast enough, he could not do anything against one that is faster than him. like activating Kaiten at thatmoment, or like Kdoumaru, suing a Defense that comes from the body, a Sand defense like gaaras that covers his body, etc etc etc.

Quote:
in addition to Genma using multiple kunais to teleport from one to another, in a way that will not allow Sharingan to predict, as Yondaime's jutsu's destination would not be predictable by the Sharingan, and in the same way, allow him to find the right time to teleport near the Sharingan user, just to touch and go, so that he can use his plan to attack using the newly placed tag.
Using the Kunai would only make the Hirashin user most susceptible to be know were he could land, Heck, The user Could leave a Kage Bushin in one of the tagged Kunai to bait the person. Tagged Kunai can be even Deflected or Predicted by non sharingan users. So Kunais would be the a not so wise option if the opponent know what are the purpose of this Kunais.

And even getting close to the Sharingan user, the Kunai will still be at a distance were the HIrahisn user would need to make movement to try to place the final tag or blow, at the end, this is the same thing as to try and do it without Using the Tagged Kunais..and how many Kunais would the user have? 10 at most?

I even say the Jutsu cant be use in a way the opponent is aware that the other person is using it. If you know the location of the Tag, you already will know were the opponent will be next.
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Old 2006-12-06, 18:37   Link #95
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Ever think that the Hiraishin user can jsut throw the tagged Kunai directly at the enemy, then teleporte to it as the enemy knocks it away, and Rasengan thir ass? Hows that for a yellow flash?
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Old 2006-12-06, 18:52   Link #96
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
It does not matter were the person can appear, If the person is not fast enough, he could not do anything against one that is faster than him. like activating Kaiten at thatmoment, or like Kdoumaru, suing a Defense that comes from the body, a Sand defense like gaaras that covers his body, etc etc etc.
How fast should the opponent to be to avoid the attack? As long as he is not fast enough, but how fast the speed should be, it can vary depending on how the jutsu operates. If we assume the opponent knows the weakness of Yondaime's jutsu, we can also assume the user of Yondaime's jutsu may use that weakness to his advantage, etc. Again, lots of variables, with only possibilities.

Quote:
Using the Kunai would only make the Hirashin user most susceptible to be know were he could land, Heck, The user Could leave a Kage Bushin in one of the tagged Kunai to bait the person. Tagged Kunai can be even Deflected or Predicted by non sharingan users. So Kunais would be the a not so wise option if the opponent know what are the purpose of this Kunais.

And even getting close to the Sharingan user, the Kunai will still be at a distance were the HIrahisn user would need to make movement to try to place the final tag or blow, at the end, this is the same thing as to try and do it without Using the Tagged Kunais..and how many Kunais would the user have? 10 at most?

I even say the Jutsu cant be use in a way the opponent is aware that the other person is using it. If you know the location of the Tag, you already will know were the opponent will be next.
Those kunais may not be the only ones he has(the ones he place away might also be used). Also, teleportation is faster than speed, so almost all the time the jutsu user is expected to reach his destination faster than his opponent. Also, it does not have to be kunai, any kind of tool he can throw or use can be used for the jutsu. And, a sharingan user cannot know the location of the tag if it is out of his visible range(even behind a tree that is one meter in front of him), it is not Byagukan you know. To repeat the above statement, lots of variable and possibilities. A person who does have no chance of beating an opponent might gain that chance with Yondaime's jutsu, no matter how small it is, and that is the beauty of this technique.
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Old 2006-12-06, 19:16   Link #97
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
How fast should the opponent to be to avoid the attack? As long as he is not fast enough, but how fast the speed should be, it can vary depending on how the jutsu operates. If we assume the opponent knows the weakness of Yondaime's jutsu, we can also assume the user of Yondaime's jutsu may use that weakness to his advantage, etc. Again, lots of variables, with only possibilities.
Yes, but this variables is what shows that HIrashin is not a certain Kill for the person using it regardless of the level of the Opponent.

Quote:
Those kunais may not be the only ones he has(the ones he place away might also be used). Also, teleportation is faster than speed, so almost all the time the jutsu user is expected to reach his destination faster than his opponent.
The Teleportation is faster than speed, however the Kunai will be at a speed were almost any Shinoby would be able to deflect and some even tell were the Kunai will land. The Usefulness of HIrahsin lies in how good the Tags are used, with Kunais it could be a gamble and even leave The User of HIrasin open to fatal baits.

Quote:
Also, it does not have to be kunai, any kind of tool he can throw or use can be used for the jutsu. And, a sharingan user cannot know the location of the tag if it is out of his visible range(even behind a tree that is one meter in front of him), it is not Byagukan you know. To repeat the above statement, lots of variable and possibilitie
Still, the trowing object will travel a projected pact at a visible speed from any Shinoby, And this will depend on how many of this trow-able items can be used or how Wise he can use his tag.

For instance SHikamru can place a Tag in a place ( a rock fro example) and by using his Tactician skills, could make his opponent end up in the place he left the Kunai.

The problem of Hirahsin lies in the placement of the Tag, and doing it directly to a SHinoby who is in a higher level than you, proves to be as difficult as anything there is.

And for the record, Im looking for the flaws of the Jutsu against anybody, not just Sharingan.

Quote:
A person who does have no chance of beating an opponent might gain that chance with Yondaime's jutsu, no matter how small it is, and that is the beauty of this technique.
There are lots of Tools, ability, Jutsus which can give someone a better Chance of beating his opponent, not just Hirashin.
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Old 2006-12-07, 20:14   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
It's true that some people make Hiraishin like the ultimate move that beats everything no matter what to a ridiculous point, I mean is there someone thinking that Nightcrawler from X-Men was the deadliest mutant alive because he could teleport? And way more easily than with this jutsu even.
Still this jutsu may be overrated -mainly because of its user- it doesn't change that it's a truly impressive jutsu that more than deserve its rank.

Sure at close range the difference in speed isn't that impressive, where an uber fast ninja will reach his opponent in 0.0001s teleportation will allow to do that in 0s which isn't that much of a difference and make basically no difference at all if you're so fast that your opponent can't see you.
There is also the fact that if Hiraishin can teleport you to a certain point you still have to make the attack itself which take time depending of your natural speed hence why a Jounin with shunshin would still be way more dangerous than a Genin with Hiraishin in close combat.

But against someone with roughly equivalent skills this difference can get rather large : first it's not predictable (let's not come into the Sharingan here to avoid another stupid Itachi vs. Yondaime) like normal movements. Experiences and skills make possible to know where and what your opponent is doing to a certain extent. With teleportation your opponent just pops here and there without warning.
Of course the fact that tags are needed to teleport shorten the places where you can appear but since tags can be placed with a mere touch and not only with Kunai it can become quickly impossible to keep count of them.
The "mere touch" thingy is also what made Hiraishin so lethal in the hands of a good fighter.
Once your opponent is "tagged" he's safe nowhere. That's not to say no one could be able to counter it (there is already plenty of way to deak with it) being tagged make almost impossible to remain on the offensive.

When you add to that the impossibility to imprison within a physical jutsu, the ability to break free from any figth to a safe place if need be and to return wherever you placed a tag before in a thought, etc. it becomes quite clear that Hiraishin is always better than Shushin and speed in general.

It makes world of a difference.When your saying it isnt "that" much of a difference ,relative to what? shunshin speed is is all relative. When gai disappeared and reappeard behind team7 in chunnin exam and if he used that exact same speed to kakashi , kakashi can already see him. Its not the same. So when ur saying "make basically no difference at all if you're so fast that your opponent can't see you." relative to what? shunshin vs shunshin or shunshin vs hirashin ... if its the latter then its make a huge difference.keep in mind that shunshin has movement and hirashin doesnt. Shunshin can be seen cuz it has movement whereas hirashin doesnt, he can appear behind,top,left , right etc.. cant be seen. To simplify it further, which is faster? .01s vs .001s? or some one can use shunshin so fast like .000000001s but then again there is .00000000000000000001s, again .000000000000000000001s < 0s . It makes a world of difference. Thats why hirashin is a s rank jutsu and shunshin is low lvl jutsu. Is it s rank because it was used by yondaime? i dont believe so.

Hirashin is a space time jutsu. In kakashi gaiden yondaime shown that he can align himself in flight before he arrived. He had his kunai at the rocknins neck when he appeared , without any movements. Can hiarshin be counter? definetly but not by reflexes or whatever. Consider the fact, I dont know the exact ratio but its defenitely require greater speed to move or use hand seals and for yondaime use his normal speed to stab you at that distance. Its quite a differenece in speed to overcome. Again, thats why when yondaime "tagged" you it ment mark of death.
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Old 2006-12-07, 20:36   Link #99
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Well let's see... Speedy Teleporting or the Speed of Teleporting? That's a big fault I see in this. No matter with any level of skill...If it takes you say 0.00000001seconds to teleport to say from Earth to Pluto and Run/Fly/whatever from Earth to Pluto in 0.00000009 seconds then that's all the difference. Because a Speedy Teleporter can be beaten by Teleporting Speed. It's really a matter of the user and in this thread that can make as much sense as it can get from us.
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Old 2006-12-08, 02:04   Link #100
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post



Unless the partner or kage bunshin is literally right behind the person (within inches) with the seal at all times, there's no way they can reach their comrade in time. The time it takes to appear, land a lethal blow and teleport back is 1 or 2 seconds at most. I would go so far as to say that Hiraishin is stronger against large groups, because several seals can be used at once. That means you can't know when and where the user will appear and attack because he can attack anyone in a random fashion. Safety in numbers definitely didn't help the Rock-nin army in the KG
[Before I start, remember I also think this jutsu is just flat out incredible! With that said I'm also only talking about the jutsu itself and not the USER ie as if yondaime is using them. I also recognize I am nit picking at it - its just that good...]

Well, that's true, but only if he teleports back. Like with the Rock nin he didn't have a tag to teleport back to (not including Kakashi's). So if for some reason he doesn't have a seal at his original position than he might just teleport to where he thought the tag was and than *AMBUSH* ~ think some n00by that wasn't thinking ahead



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Really, really good anticipation. And if we're talking about Byakugan and Kaiten, Byakugan has a blind spot and it takes time to start the spinning motion for Kaiten.
Let me ask you? Are you thinking about Yondaime using the jutsu b/c yes you would need some S-Class byukugan or sharingan + genious + luck to anticpate it. B/c any jutsu is dangerous from him esp. this one...

However, if it was some regular gennin or noob w/ the same technique than you wouldn't need as much anticipation.


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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Would someone realistically have time to set this up in the middle of a battle? How can you place the tag over a deep canyon in midair? It also assumes that some deathtrap like a canyon or bed of spikes is conveniently available. This isn't a Roadrunner cartoon.
I'm sure someone could find a way. Again I'm talkin about noobs here and nit picking at the jutsu.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Every jutsu that uses physical contact runs this risk, but you don't see too many people being blown apart by exploding kage bunshin. That's not so much a natural weakness of the Hiraishin as it is part of the risk of using any close range jutsu.
Well that's true, but you know nobody wants to use these self sacrifice jutsus unless they really have too. But if you're fighting someone formidable like the 4th you could use it knowing that you'll die anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I don't anyone mentioned these obviously tough match-ups for the Hiraishin. One would be opponents who travel mostly underground like Zetsu make Hiraishin useless for offense. Also, enemies who are airborne like Deidara can be high enough to be out of range of the kunai tags. Maybe
Yea, I think he'd be in range b/c all he'd have to do is throw a how bunch of tagged kunai deidara's way and than bam (but this could get dangerous
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