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Old 2006-12-10, 10:22   Link #1241
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223 View Post
Oh. It could have been more of a coincidence, you mean?
No, them meeting up like that one was done perfect. Its just how he went.. what they talked about, it just didn't feel 'right' at all to me. The conspiracy side of the talk was done well 'cause they couldn't have messed that up - there's to much background for it. Its just everything else was low if you ask me, right down to Kashiwa saying she's going to be a mother. It means her mentioning an affair had nothing to do with the current situation of her life - GONZO just added that because it was used in the manga.
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Old 2006-12-10, 10:29   Link #1242
physics223
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I saw it differently: Kashiwa is quite the vulnerable person, and it took only that small a misfortune on her part to consider having an illicit affair with Satou. She lacks the confidence in trusting others (even her husband, to an extent) except with Satou; Satou, however, gentleman that he is, didn't manipulate this weakness of hers. What can be thus seen is a true gentleman hidden in the forest of hikkikomori-ism.
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Old 2006-12-10, 10:31   Link #1243
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Yes, i understood all that - it just wasen't done right at all for me.

We're getting nowhere with this. I can understand what you're saying, it just don't work for me. :3
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Old 2006-12-10, 10:55   Link #1244
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Episode 22 might be the best episode in this already impressive series; certainly it is one of the most poignant. I've spent a good portion of the past day mulling over the events in this episode and watched both sub versions before commenting on it here.

Let's begin with Kashiwa first and particularly the treatment of her paranoia about the conspiracy. In this episode it feels as though she's left that behind. When she agrees with Satou that they shouldn't have an affair because it would be giving in to the conspiracy, she adopts a playful manner that suggests she has learned, or perhaps known all along, that her expressions of paranoia have been a game she's played with herself and with Satou. I don't think she's always believed that; she was ready to commit suicide only a few month's earlier. Nonetheless I think we're supposed to conclude that Kashiwa has been somehow "cured" of her paranoia in the months that have passed since the Offline Meeting.

So what's been the source of this cure, the source of her new-found happiness? I think it's safe to say that it's not her relationship with her fiancee or her upcoming marriage. Rather I think she's happy primarily because she's pregnant. I'm left wondering, though, how she'll feel six months or so after the birth when she's left taking care of an infant all day while her husband is off pursuing his career. I can certainly imagine her calling Satou some afternoon and asking him to meet her and the child. Where that would lead is anyone's guess. She's also drinking an awful lot in this episode for someone's who is pregnant, and given that she's probably only a few months' along in pregnancy, drinking at exactly the worst time from the point of view of the health of the developing child. (I doubt she would have considered suicide in the summer if she had been pregnant.) Given her existing depressive tendencies, it's not hard to imagine her collapsing into alcoholism in the post-partum period, especially if hubby isn't going to be much support.

I'm not trying to criticize Kashiwa here; it's hard not to be very sympathetic to her in this episode despite how I have felt toward her in the past. I just don't think it's plausible that she's heading off into a "happily-ever-after" future despite her new-found joy in living.

As for Misaki, she continues down an ever more dangerous path. Whether she killed the cat or not, she's clearly becoming more and more trapped in her own delusions about her significance to Satou and her imagined future with him. For those who might wish for a Satou with Misaki outcome, I think they should look to the end of this episode. It is especially telling that, when Satou thinks about the people in his life, Misaki doesn't even come to mind. Even after all these months and shared experiences he still sees her as a child, never referring to her as anything other than "Misaki-chan." In some settings it could be seen as endearing; I don't think that's the case here. If he saw her as another adult, especially as an adult in whom he might be romantically interested, he'd have been more forthcoming in the train station about what really transpired with Kashiwa.

As we head into the final stretch I've started to think that Yamazaki will ultimately be Satou's savior. Perhaps their amateur game will start to garner a following, or they will simply decide to make another. Yamazaki's current enthusiasm for being the master of his domain will wear off soon, I suspect. Perhaps Satou could be convinced to move to the farm so the two of them can work together. I'd certainly see that as a better life for Satou than the one he has now.

And what of Satou himself? Like physics I was impressed with his resolve when offered the opportunity to fulfill his fantasy about Kashiwa. I also think there are some subtle indicators of how far he has progressed. Look at the state of his room, for instance. I suppose Misaki could be the one cleaning it every day, but it doesn't seem that way to me. I think we're supposed to conclude that he has started to leave his hikkimori past behind even if the future is very uncertain.

One of the best things about this episode is how the writers play with the plot line itself. Kashiwa comments on the implausibility of their meeting in the middle of a crowded New Year's Eve, recoginizing that the viewer will have the same sense of disbelief. We learn why Misaki can't call Satou on his cell phone soon after I was asking myself the very same question. And then there's the nosebleed scene which was especially funny because they played it straight. (I take it Kashiwa isn't an anime or manga fan!)
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Old 2006-12-10, 12:16   Link #1245
Theowne
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I don't know if Kashiwa is "cured" just yet. She was unhappy for a lot of scenes, asks to have an affair, drinks a lot, and so on. Accouncing her pregnancy was odd, because she seemed happy but it conflicts with everything that just happened. On the other hand I still find Misaki to be something of a mystery. We had one instance earlier where she was saying odd things on the boat to save Satou, after that a long stretch of her being just the good little girl, and then now we're back to the oddness. So I guess we'll see where that ends up. I really don't see or want any romantic plot involving Satou or Misaki. I just don't feel like it would work. And I agree that It would be nice if the ending involved Yamazaki.
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Old 2006-12-10, 12:24   Link #1246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
I don't know if Kashiwa is "cured" just yet. She was unhappy for a lot of scenes, asks to have an affair, drinks a lot, and so on. Accouncing her pregnancy was odd, because she seemed happy but it conflicts with everything that just happened. On the other hand I still find Misaki to be something of a mystery. We had one instance earlier where she was saying odd things on the boat to save Satou, after that a long stretch of her being just the good little girl, and then now we're back to the oddness. So I guess we'll see where that ends up. I really don't see or want any romantic plot involving Satou or Misaki. I just don't feel like it would work. And I agree that It would be nice if the ending involved Yamazaki.
but too bad we anime watchers wont know the true outcome of kashiwa but as far as that is concerned the anime make it so shes happy ^_^

and misaki...whow her head is in the clouds the end of ep 22 raises some questions...satou is her captive huh? im feeling some evil/psyco vibes from that girl >.< its either she has completely lost it in her head or satou was a test subject all along which she happened to develop feelings for ~
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Old 2006-12-10, 12:53   Link #1247
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
I don't know if Kashiwa is "cured" just yet. She was unhappy for a lot of scenes, asks to have an affair, drinks a lot, and so on. Accouncing her pregnancy was odd, because she seemed happy but it conflicts with everything that just happened.
I don't think she's "cured," either, hence my use of quotation marks in my original posting, but I don't see her perspective as quite so inconsistent as you.

I do think she's very conflicted between her joy at being pregnant and her misgivings about her marriage. Her conversation with Satou about the latter suggests to me she's going forward with the marriage for the baby's sake more than her own. If she is going to have a child, having a husband who is respectable and an earner becomes much more important. After the Offline Meeting I didn't think it likely that she'd stay with her fiancé. Now that the baby's coming she seems reconciled to a loveless marriage for the child's sake. She might actually love Satou (I think she loves him as much as she can love anyone), but he can't fulfill any of her economic or social needs, especially with a child on the way.

As for Misaki, I've always thought she has severe psychological problems. One can imagine from the scene on the beach that she may have been abused as a child; perhaps that's why she's living with her aunt. Her self-esteem issues fuel her fantasy about curing Satou. On the one hand, she reiterates to herself how she's a better person than Satou and thus capable of leading him to a new, more productive life. At the same time she fantasizes that, once cured, Satou will inevitably come to love Misaki and thus fulfill her need for someone to make her feel important. I don't know what will happen when these events fail to come to pass, but I don't think it will be a pretty sight.

Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2006-12-10 at 13:20.
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Old 2006-12-10, 13:14   Link #1248
Theowne
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I wasn't responding to your post specifically (i would have quoted your post if I was).

Quote:
If she is going to have a child, having a husband who is respectable and an earner becomes much more important. After the Offline Meeting I didn't think it likely that she'd stay with her fiancé. Now that the baby's coming she seems reconciled to a loveless marriage for the child's sake. She might actually love Satou (I think she loves him as much as she can love anyone), but he can't fulfill any of her economic or social needs, especially with a child on the way.
It's true, but that kind of situation really does seem like it would do any good to her mental state. So I mean, it makes sense if she wants to live comfortably, but she's probably going to sink even more if that's the case. Or maybe she would find happiness in the child which to balance it. I dunno.
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Old 2006-12-10, 13:35   Link #1249
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
maybe she would find happiness in the child which to balance it
I'm pretty sure that what she thinks, that she'll bask in the glory and warmth of motherhood which will compensate for whatever she must give up in her relationship with her husband. In real life, though, parenting is much more complex mixture of joys, sorrows, successes, and hardships. I'm not surprised that she can only see the positives in her future as a mother given how young and rather naive Kashiwa is. I also sense that she, herself, had a fairly comfortable upbringing, though I can't tell if she came from a loving family or not. Even if not, she probably feels that she'll be able to provide the love her child needs. I hope so for all their sakes.

More and more, I see this as a story about the conflict between reality and perception. In the long term it seems unlikely that any these characters will live out the lives they desire. Coming to grips with this gap is a big part of what maturation is all about.

It's a tribute to the writers of this series that I care about the characters as much as I do. I rarely feel that way about any characters in the popular media in any of its forms.
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Old 2006-12-10, 19:17   Link #1250
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Episode 22 was nice hell who didnt like Kashwai fanservice. NHK is one of the best animes of the year its excelled in so many areas. However there are areas that could have been better. The whole Kashwai part in the anime felt rushed like they wanted to get it out of the way. There is so much more to her story that have added the story. I still prefer the manga better but thats not to say the anime isnt fantastic. I cant say i whole heartedly like the direction that the anime is going in. Despite what my own personal opinion on NHKs shortcomings the positives far out weigh the negatives. And for the people that think Kashwai has found happiness you might want to think again. Like i said there is more to her story and the way they anime announced her being with child was shitty it felt cheap
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Old 2006-12-10, 21:08   Link #1251
physics223
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ep23 will not disappoint as to why they've done that. They've deviated so far from the manga, and yet it's so awesome. Next to perhaps H&C II, this may be the best anime of the year for me.
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Old 2006-12-10, 21:52   Link #1252
Shiroth
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Episode 23 does an awesome job and leading the way to the end of the series. Yet again i'll go more into depth after more people have watched the episode, but until then i'll have a lil' fun.

The scene that includes Yamazaki, Kobayashi & Kashiwa was amazingly done if you aks me, even more so for being new material (which the whole episode was apart from a few parts). I really like the frame of mind Satou takes for the scene.. its (time for Shiroth's quote) classic NHK. :3

A few people have already said, but its been made clear that they're using the story of Misaki's parents being 'bad' people.
Spoiler for Manga:
A good way around it.

The ED was done well with Satou running for the train, just seeing it helps you to understand just how epic the last episode shall be... gah, i really don't wanna think about that at the moment. The time spent watching this show.. waiting for episodes to air has been some of the best times of my life - call me sad, but i love it. Also, the preview for the last episode was done amazingly perfect if you ask me - it was yet again, classic NHK.
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Old 2006-12-10, 23:12   Link #1253
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the ED for ep23 came off as a little cheesy to me, but that's not going to stop me from looking forward to the conclusion of this series. the episode itself was a strong bridge to the final episode, with misaki's past coming to the fore, and some great character development for satou.

favorite moment: the "graduation exam" scene.
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Old 2006-12-10, 23:30   Link #1254
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For anyone who has read the novel - was it completely new material in episode 23, or was the episode using the novel's version? (One day, when I learn enough Japanese, I will have to read it.)
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Old 2006-12-11, 01:28   Link #1255
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I was kind of surprised by some stuff in ep 23, maybe because I just read the manga counterpart last week...

Spoiler for ep 23:


I like the ending of the episode, it was very intense. Can't wait to see the last episode.
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Old 2006-12-11, 10:36   Link #1256
physics223
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For those who have the OST, when was Kyuukei wa Ama Sugiru Kotoba played in the series? Any specific episodes? I can't pinpoint where, so if you could help me, please do.
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Old 2006-12-11, 10:38   Link #1257
Shiroth
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For those who have the OST, when was Kyuukei wa Ama Sugiru Kotoba played in the series? Any specific episodes? I can't pinpoint where, so if you could help me, please do.
Episode 22 - the start of Satou's first day-dream in the hotel.

It has also been played in the past a few times.
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Old 2006-12-11, 10:41   Link #1258
physics223
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Thanks. NHK's OST is great. My personal favorite in Sunny Side ni Youkoso is Owari wo Mitsumeru Shunkan. It's just that amazing.
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Old 2006-12-11, 10:44   Link #1259
Shiroth
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Thanks. NHK's OST is great. My personal favorite in Sunny Side ni Youkoso is Owari wo Mitsumeru Shunkan. It's just that amazing.
If we're just going to mention two from the soundtrack, then it has to be Youkoso! Hitoribocchi & Hitori no Tame no Lullaby.

Of course, both soundtracks hold some of the best music i've ever heard. Pearl Brothers seriously have jumped to the job as my fav' composers, thanks to this series.
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Old 2006-12-11, 10:49   Link #1260
physics223
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I like those, too. I just like Owari most.
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