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Old 2006-12-13, 11:46   Link #21
Suna no tate
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Hunter, gaara doesn't control the shield of sand. it works on its own. It was said several times. It acts regardless of gaara's will automatically. When he transformed into a mini shukaku, he no longer had the shield of sand active. Normally shurikens would be blocked by the shield of sand automatically, but in the shukaku form, they weren't. No attacks were blocked. It never was activated!

Hunter I'm talking about gaara's automatic sand defense! In the mini shukaku form, he lost it! That automatic sand defense isn't sand manipulated by gaara. He wasn't using it for something else. In fact, I don't think its even the same sand thats in his gourd. remember as akid when he tried to stab himself and the sand appeared? He wasn't carrying the gourd and was in a clean warm sand free room. The automatic sand defense is something separate from gaara
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Old 2006-12-13, 12:13   Link #22
Hunter
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I know you're talking about the Sand Shield Suna.
I'm not saying the Sand is still moving around Gaara, I'm saying Gaara uses this sand for something else. The attacks were still blocked by the sand, it just covered directly his body instead of flying around.
And Gaara can manipulate this Sand, heck he even carved his fronthead with it.
This is the Sand made of tons of old chakra Deidara talked about.
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Old 2006-12-13, 13:10   Link #23
Suna no tate
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I see I see.. carving his forehead is correct... but still, many more times it was said, even by gaara himself, that it moves without his will. Its true he carved his kanji on his head, but man... that is directly in opposition to what gaara and everyone says about his sand defense. I'm going to have to sit on this one for a while... I mean... man! From what we've seen, its automatic, even sort of ethereal stuff since it just appears out of nowhere.
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Old 2006-12-13, 13:13   Link #24
Bijuu Killer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I see I see.. carving his forehead is correct... but still, many more times it was said, even by gaara himself, that it moves without his will. Its true he carved his kanji on his head, but man... that is directly in opposition to what gaara and everyone says about his sand defense. I'm going to have to sit on this one for a while... I mean... man! From what we've seen, its automatic, even sort of ethereal stuff since it just appears out of nowhere.
The sand shield to protect Gaara is automatic, but he can attack on his own will.
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Old 2006-12-13, 13:48   Link #25
Xrayz0r
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Originally Posted by Bijuu Killer View Post
If you get to a higher level, what's the point of using the previous eye at the same time? MS is only used for a few seonds, and it completely change the appearance of Sharingan eye. There's no need to have the normal Sharingan ability during a time you obliterate your enemy with a different and stronger eye jutsu. Also, you said correctly about MS as the entrance to a new world, this contradict your theory how it would remain the same.
Pleas quote me back where I said it would remain the same.
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Old 2006-12-13, 14:58   Link #26
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I see I see.. carving his forehead is correct... but still, many more times it was said, even by gaara himself, that it moves without his will. Its true he carved his kanji on his head, but man... that is directly in opposition to what gaara and everyone says about his sand defense. I'm going to have to sit on this one for a while... I mean... man! From what we've seen, its automatic, even sort of ethereal stuff since it just appears out of nowhere.
Like Bijuu said, it does auto-protect him, but he can still use it to attack using his own chakra however. In the same fashion when he uses Shukaku he can use it to attack for him, if he goes to sleep of course. In this way Shukaku's consciousness is still being used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijuu Killer View Post
If you get to a higher level, what's the point of using the previous eye at the same time? MS is only used for a few seonds, and it completely change the appearance of Sharingan eye. There's no need to have the normal Sharingan ability during a time you obliterate your enemy with a different and stronger eye jutsu. Also, you said correctly about MS as the entrance to a new world, this contradict your theory how it would remain the same.
Itatchi's technique would suck a lot more if that were the case. He has to activate his MS then wait untill they look into his eyes. So up untill they do that, he has lessened his defenses a lot. If he fought someone like gai who may look at their feet, that would be completely retarded.

Regular sharingan can use high level genjutsu while still having dodging capabilities, why would it be any different for MS. In all rationality it seems more like MS activates stronger jutsu for the eye for a short period of time, sacrificing a lot of chakra.
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Old 2006-12-13, 15:04   Link #27
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Old 2006-12-13, 15:09   Link #28
Suna no tate
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No no.. maybe you guys don't see my problem. I'm upset because the shield of sand is not under gaara's control. its not like the armor of sand which he packs on his skin. Its not like the sand he carries on his back in his gourd. its weird in that... for example, if gaara decided to shed his armor of sand, drop his gourd at home, and literally not have a speck of sand on him, if attacked, the shield of sand would still activate. It would almost literally materialize out of the air. Gaara can use other sand to block, but that special automatic sand is not the same sand. Gaara has no control over that particular sand, none whatsoever. Thats what is said. Remember how he tried to kill and harm himself. If he had control over the shield, he could just tell it to stop or have it go left, while he stabbed himself on the right. But he can't... he said so himself. The shield moves automatically.

If he did carve that kanji, I'd have to assume another source of sand.

Anyway, we do know that different types of sand are under different levels of control. The blood soaked sand is the best controlled (thats the stuff in his gourd). The shield of sand however is not under any sort of control.
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Old 2006-12-13, 15:58   Link #29
Sabaku Kyu
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Gaara has control over all sand. That includes regular chakra controlled sand and the special sand from his gourd (which is the same thing as armour sand and shield sand btw). The only exception is if Gaara tries to harm himself. If he does this, then the will of the Shukaku (or possibly Gaara's mother) overrides his control and protects him. For this same reason it is unlikely he can completely remove the gourd from his back, since it not only carries the sand but is made of the special sand itself. If tried to remove it would just continue to follow him in the form of sand. So he can use it just like any other sand, though Deidara notes it is much faster and deadlier when he uses the special sand.

As for losing other Sharingan abilities while performing MS, that remains to be seen but I don't think it works that way. It seems like Kakashi would've pointed out this weakness when he was talking to Itachi or when he used it himself.
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Old 2006-12-13, 17:55   Link #30
Suna no tate
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Honestly I think you're wrong. Here's why.

1)I've seen him take of his gourd. He was talking to lee after the kimimaro fight and took it off.

2)as a child, we saw gaara without his gourd almost every time but never saw say "a trail of sand" or something of the like. Its true the gourd is made up of sand he manipulates, but I don't think it has anything to do with the shield of sand.

3)if he could control it, he could still send all the sand left and harm himself to the right. but he can't.

In fact, the shield of sand is completely different from the armor of sand. The armor is not automatic. Gaara decides whether to wear it or not. The shield is automatic and appears even in sandless situations. Its very troubling to me (especially since it didn't exactly help against akatsuki). Yet we know that if gaara is sleeping or something and I kick him, the shield will block it. Very weird.

Anyway, the special sand we talk about is that blood soaked sand. Thats the sand he and shukaku have the best control over.

Again I refer to the shield activating in a sandless situation. Gaara can take off his gourd, he can rid himself of sand, and yet sand will appear to protect him.
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Old 2006-12-13, 18:30   Link #31
cheese no koma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
?

So you've got 3 tomoe, upgrade to MS and suddenly you lose all previous abilities?

Uhh I don't think so. MS is the entrance to a new world of possibilities. A new world of powers and potential jutsu to be developed. I wouldn't just say MS enhances the regular traits of Sharingan any further, but it would be illogical to have them all disappear suddenly. It adds up. 1 tomoe, 2 tomoe, 3 tomoe, MS. MS once activated, posesses all traits of the previous stages and just adds up with a new kind of power.

my opinion is that the 3 tomoe matured sharingan is enough to copy any non-bloodline jutsus. So it would be wasting chakra to including the same ability in MS while an uchiha can just save a lot more chakra in using his normal sharingan for copying purpose, and MS for something else.
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Old 2006-12-14, 03:29   Link #32
Xrayz0r
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Originally Posted by cheese no koma View Post
my opinion is that the 3 tomoe matured sharingan is enough to copy any non-bloodline jutsus. So it would be wasting chakra to including the same ability in MS while an uchiha can just save a lot more chakra in using his normal sharingan for copying purpose, and MS for something else.
Hey, listen up.

It, doesn't, matter. No one can put together an argument backed up by facts so it's all useless speculation. MS isn't used for more than 2 seconds, so it doesn't matter anyway.
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Old 2006-12-14, 06:39   Link #33
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
No no.. maybe you guys don't see my problem. I'm upset because the shield of sand is not under gaara's control. its not like the armor of sand which he packs on his skin. Its not like the sand he carries on his back in his gourd. its weird in that... for example, if gaara decided to shed his armor of sand, drop his gourd at home, and literally not have a speck of sand on him, if attacked, the shield of sand would still activate. It would almost literally materialize out of the air. Gaara can use other sand to block, but that special automatic sand is not the same sand. Gaara has no control over that particular sand, none whatsoever. Thats what is said. Remember how he tried to kill and harm himself. If he had control over the shield, he could just tell it to stop or have it go left, while he stabbed himself on the right. But he can't... he said so himself. The shield moves automatically.
I think you don't understand the mechanism of Gaara's sand.
The Sand that protects Gaara automatically doesn't appear out of nothing and isn't particular in anyway. Most of the time it's from his old chakra-sand simply because it's the closest and fastest but what protect Gaara is sand in general.

If Gaara directly uses the sand at his disposition to do something else then that's what the sand will do, that's why Naruto was able to punch him at the hospital for example, because he was already using his sand to cover Rock Lee.
Gaara used not to be able to control his sand when he was young. That's why everybody was afraid of him because he could wound and kill people on childish whims even if he didn't really wanted to. That's why before he killed his uncle he wasn't able to wound himself whereas once he decided to be a demon he took control of his sand to carve his face.

To summarize if Gaara doesn't control the sand it will try to protect him automatically but if Gaara take control of it, the sand will act at his will.
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Old 2006-12-14, 07:26   Link #34
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MAngekyo sharingan deteriorates the eyesight just like itachi,maybe it's beacause of the concentrated chakra, it is the AFTER EFFECT...
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Old 2006-12-14, 08:56   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Honestly I think you're wrong. Here's why.

1)I've seen him take of his gourd. He was talking to lee after the kimimaro fight and took it off.

2)as a child, we saw gaara without his gourd almost every time but never saw say "a trail of sand" or something of the like. Its true the gourd is made up of sand he manipulates, but I don't think it has anything to do with the shield of sand.

3)if he could control it, he could still send all the sand left and harm himself to the right. but he can't.

In fact, the shield of sand is completely different from the armor of sand. The armor is not automatic. Gaara decides whether to wear it or not. The shield is automatic and appears even in sandless situations. Its very troubling to me (especially since it didn't exactly help against akatsuki). Yet we know that if gaara is sleeping or something and I kick him, the shield will block it. Very weird.

Anyway, the special sand we talk about is that blood soaked sand. Thats the sand he and shukaku have the best control over.

Again I refer to the shield activating in a sandless situation. Gaara can take off his gourd, he can rid himself of sand, and yet sand will appear to protect him.
I must say that i do agree with you. He can control any sand to protect himself, we can see this when he makes more sand while he is fighting Kimimaro, but the sand that he keeps in his gourd is the primary sand that is used. So he could just leave his gourd at home. I think that it is the power of shukaku that can automatically control any sand without gaara's control (to protect gaara and himself, remember that the demon dies if the host dies). Like in the sense that Kyuubi can heal naruto very quickly, and grant him power against his will (like when he fights Sasuke and turns into his 1 tail, fox transformation).
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Old 2006-12-14, 09:22   Link #36
Suna no tate
Akatsuki Bart is Tobi
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I think you don't understand the mechanism of Gaara's sand.
The Sand that protects Gaara automatically doesn't appear out of nothing and isn't particular in anyway. Most of the time it's from his old chakra-sand simply because it's the closest and fastest but what protect Gaara is sand in general.

If Gaara directly uses the sand at his disposition to do something else then that's what the sand will do, that's why Naruto was able to punch him at the hospital for example, because he was already using his sand to cover Rock Lee.
Gaara used not to be able to control his sand when he was young. That's why everybody was afraid of him because he could wound and kill people on childish whims even if he didn't really wanted to. That's why before he killed his uncle he wasn't able to wound himself whereas once he decided to be a demon he took control of his sand to carve his face.

To summarize if Gaara doesn't control the sand it will try to protect him automatically but if Gaara take control of it, the sand will act at his will.
Well... then there's the question of gaara's youth. If he had no control over the sand, and we didn't see any sand protecting him (ie, no gourd, no sand deposits, no sand with murdered enemies blood), where did that sand come from?

Also, if gaara did gain control over the sand, why would even he say it moves regardless of his will? the rhetoric implies that even if he wanted to stop it, he couldn't, ie during those times he wanted to die or hurt himself.
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Old 2006-12-14, 09:57   Link #37
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Well... then there's the question of gaara's youth. If he had no control over the sand, and we didn't see any sand protecting him (ie, no gourd, no sand deposits, no sand with murdered enemies blood), where did that sand come from?
No sand deposits? I think you kind of missed the obvious : the Sand Village is in a desert
There is sand everywhere, how do you think he broke the bones of the kid he wanted to play with, butchered a guy a little after that and crushed his uncle later?

Quote:
Also, if gaara did gain control over the sand, why would even he say it moves regardless of his will? the rhetoric implies that even if he wanted to stop it, he couldn't, ie during those times he wanted to die or hurt himself.
Yeah, as a kid : when he was considered a failed experiment because he couldn't control his power.
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Old 2006-12-14, 14:46   Link #38
Suna no tate
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Well I was referring to that specific instance in his house where he tried to stab himself. No sand in the room, no armor of sand, no sand trail or sand deposit in a corner by the fireplace..... its a real mystery where that sand came from. Even more how it moves at light speed. I remember the image of the guy with the bomb and gaara is like 1 feet away with no sand in sight, and it still protected him...


But I'm beginning to side with you guys that gaara has a little control over the automatic sand defense. The best example is during the chuunin exams against sasuke, when he found that the shield of sand wasn't fast enough to protect him, he decided to use it to form a permanent ball. We know that this ball is still the shield of sand because it was responsive to sasuke's movements and attacks (ie, gaara wasn't controlling it as he can't see sasuke inside that ball). Maybe a little control...
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Old 2006-12-14, 18:48   Link #39
Uchiha_Gaara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Well I was referring to that specific instance in his house where he tried to stab himself. No sand in the room, no armor of sand, no sand trail or sand deposit in a corner by the fireplace..... its a real mystery where that sand came from. Even more how it moves at light speed. I remember the image of the guy with the bomb and gaara is like 1 feet away with no sand in sight, and it still protected him...
He has that permenent sand over is skin to protect him so it could come from there !
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Old 2006-12-16, 15:01   Link #40
Suna no tate
Akatsuki Bart is Tobi
 
 
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Originally Posted by Uchiha_Gaara View Post
He has that permenent sand over is skin to protect him so it could come from there !
Gaara certainly controls the armor of sand. Thats a technique he developed later. As a child however, he most likely never had it; the chakra consumption alone.... However, as a child he did have the automatic sand defense. Just for clarification, I was questioning his level of control. As a child, gaara carried no gourd, had no armor of sand, and even in a closed sandless room the sand defense was there in full force. Remember how much sand blocked the knife or the explosion and remember that it just mysteriously disappears? Anyway, before there was a question about perhaps aloss of ability with the MS conformation compared to the normal sharingan. Ipointed out that losses of ability with transformations aren't that bad. Gaara seems to lose his automatic sand defense when he transforms to a mini shukaku. Then hunter, said he doesn't as he has control even over the automatic sand defense. He makes the excellent point that gaara used that very same sand to carve the kanji on his forehead. Nonetheless, while I see Hunter (and subaku kyu's) points and am beginning to slide over to their camp, I'm still not entirely bought. I'm having a hard time getting over the heavily repeated statement that the shield moves regardless of gaara's will and the fact that even as child it was present in so much force despite the times where sand wasn't all that present. As a child, gaara did not have the armor of sand and he did not have the gourd. In a closed room, where did the sand come from and in so much force?
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