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Old 2006-12-16, 22:45   Link #41
DAmer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Gaara certainly controls the armor of sand. Thats a technique he developed later. As a child however, he most likely never had it; the chakra consumption alone.... However, as a child he did have the automatic sand defense. Just for clarification, I was questioning his level of control. As a child, gaara carried no gourd, had no armor of sand, and even in a closed sandless room the sand defense was there in full force. Remember how much sand blocked the knife or the explosion and remember that it just mysteriously disappears? Anyway, before there was a question about perhaps aloss of ability with the MS conformation compared to the normal sharingan. Ipointed out that losses of ability with transformations aren't that bad. Gaara seems to lose his automatic sand defense when he transforms to a mini shukaku. Then hunter, said he doesn't as he has control even over the automatic sand defense. He makes the excellent point that gaara used that very same sand to carve the kanji on his forehead. Nonetheless, while I see Hunter (and subaku kyu's) points and am beginning to slide over to their camp, I'm still not entirely bought. I'm having a hard time getting over the heavily repeated statement that the shield moves regardless of gaara's will and the fact that even as child it was present in so much force despite the times where sand wasn't all that present. As a child, gaara did not have the armor of sand and he did not have the gourd. In a closed room, where did the sand come from and in so much force?
plot holes??? kishi forgot to make a gourd of sand for the infant gaara, or the sand was always on the floor near his feet and travelled at light speed to protect gaara.
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Old 2006-12-17, 09:47   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I'm having a hard time getting over the heavily repeated statement that the shield moves regardless of gaara's will and the fact that even as child it was present in so much force despite the times where sand wasn't all that present. As a child, gaara did not have the armor of sand and he did not have the gourd. In a closed room, where did the sand come from and in so much force?
I think you don't remember the scene all that well, take a better look at the chapter 129 p18 when this happens.
Not only the room is far from closed since there are open windows everywhere but there is alos hardly a handfull of sand to stop Gaara to knive anyway.
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Old 2006-12-17, 15:36   Link #43
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This is just words and speculation so far about MS detoriate eye sight. Itachi didn't comment.
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Old 2006-12-17, 17:33   Link #44
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Okay.. I'm too lazy to quote people right now but in regards to this whole Hunter/Suna conversation about Gaara and his sand... I am going to have to side with Suna on this one, although I do respect Hunter and his rationale... he has been wrong about Gaara before. I mean he formally believed that Shuukaku was not one of the nine demons, but rather only a priest.

The most logical explanation for where Gaara got his sand from when his automatic defense prevented him from injuring himself is of course... his surroundings. I know there is no gourd, most-likely no sand armour, and no visible clumps of sound around.... but keep in mind they are in the Sand Village..in the dessert.. as Hunter has been saying; the most obvious place the sand came from is from the buildings themselves. The people of the Sand Village are probably not going to be using wood for their structures, but more so would make them out of some form of adobe, mud-bricklike houses. I'm sure that there is a ninja who specializes in making the sand houses for the village. So regardless of where Gaara is in the village and what he has on his person, there is always available material that seems to come out of nowhere.

The main issue about this sub-topic, however, is whether Gaara loses his automatic sand defense when he goes into Demon-form. It is in my belief that he does in fact lose it...

-Gaara's sand is being used by Shuukaku.

-There are no longer two conscious minds controlling his sand (in full Demon), so Shuukaku is doing everything on its own and would possibly be taxed if still having to maintain the auto-defense.

-Normally Gaara in full-demon mode would not have to be at all concerned about enemies as there are very few ninja who can withstand such a giant monster; The Sannin, Naruto, Yondaime(all of these can summon bosses), Shodaime(his wood can grow to rival the sheer body scale of the enemies), and possilby a few other select nins can stand against the large demons on equal terms. So why would his demon half even bother to use the limited (Shuukaku is not the same as Kyubi) chakra it has to maintain an otherwise unneccessary defense?

Logistically speaking, keeping the outstanding abilities preserved in an upgraded form of that ability seems, to me, to be spreading your chakra levels too far only to end up with a heedless over-exurtion of yourself. In the case of the MS, why would you need to have reading, copying, and prediction abilities when, in most cases, your enemies falls in a second or two?
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Old 2006-12-17, 18:04   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijuu Killer View Post
This is just words and speculation so far about MS detoriate eye sight. Itachi didn't comment.
He kind of commented it... he suddenly asked Kakashi something. This could indicate that Kakashi hit a soft point with his statement.
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Old 2006-12-17, 22:45   Link #46
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Didnt Itachi tell sasuke you have to kill your best friend in order to achieve MS, then how could Kakashi get MS? he didnt exactly kill his best friend. I am sorry if its already been discussed i wasnt around for a while.
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Old 2006-12-18, 03:02   Link #47
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Hunter I'll take a look in the morning. Right now I can only remember the anime scene where he tried to stab himself and the anime scene where the bomb blew up. Anyway, when I look I'll put up a real response.
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Old 2006-12-18, 16:24   Link #48
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Originally Posted by DAmer View Post
Didnt Itachi tell sasuke you have to kill your best friend in order to achieve MS, then how could Kakashi get MS? he didnt exactly kill his best friend. I am sorry if its already been discussed i wasnt around for a while.
Maybe its a state of mind you must achieve, maybe Kakashi felt gulity that he couldn't help his friend and thats how he got the ppotential to get the MS
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Old 2006-12-18, 21:54   Link #49
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Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't look like it can predict very well. Otherwise, Deidara wouldn't have been able to avoid Kakashi's attack twice.
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Old 2006-12-18, 22:08   Link #50
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It's not that it couldn't predict, he just wasn't able to use the technique properly
Maybe it was his first time using it on a moving object
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Old 2006-12-19, 17:49   Link #51
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I know what everyone's talking about on this thread and I'm new, so don't criticize me. I believe that Tsukyomi of MS could be used against the user if the user uses it and then sees a reflection of their own eyes, thus using it on themselves. Since it would be stupid to use a mirror, the person could wear mirrored contacts like in that third Artemis Fowl book.
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Old 2006-12-19, 18:29   Link #52
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Haku's bloodline would work right?
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Old 2006-12-19, 19:39   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Hunter I'll take a look in the morning. Right now I can only remember the anime scene where he tried to stab himself and the anime scene where the bomb blew up. Anyway, when I look I'll put up a real response.
I think he always had the sand armor, that is the last defense line, and also acts as an outer skin. It looks like normal skin, but it's there. His battle-sand is probably of the same special sand but as the shield but he uses it for his attacking techniques, so he did not have it back than. In the flashbacks the sand does not come from nowhere, it's on him all the time. It's probably what killed his mother too. I think in the flashbacks all the attacks were weak compared to the chuunin exam times, so that the sand skin armor was enough to hold.
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Old 2006-12-20, 04:29   Link #54
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Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't look like it can predict very well. Otherwise, Deidara wouldn't have been able to avoid Kakashi's attack twice.
Except the reason why Kakashi missed his target was given and has nothing to do with that.
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Old 2006-12-20, 13:10   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangekyo View Post
It's not that it couldn't predict, he just wasn't able to use the technique properly
Maybe it was his first time using it on a moving object
There's no reason he would use a technique that drains a third of his power and leaves him almost helpless afterwards unless he is sure it would work better than any of the other 1,000 techniques he has learned. That would be stupid.
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Except the reason why Kakashi missed his target was given and has nothing to do with that.
Twice the "space warp" effect was targeted ON Deidara, but he moved away. Both Kakashi and Deidara were running/flying at full speed so it's obvious he can move the space warp effect. However, he wasn't able to predict and track Deidara's movement.
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Old 2006-12-20, 13:35   Link #56
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Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Twice the "space warp" effect was targeted ON Deidara, but he moved away. Both Kakashi and Deidara were running/flying at full speed so it's obvious he can move the space warp effect. However, he wasn't able to predict and track Deidara's movement.
As I already said the reason why Kakashi missed is already explained by Kakashi himself in the very chapter he used his jutsu : " I still can't properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area".

So yeah by Kakashi's own admission he can't use this jutsu properly which is why he missed. And he used it because despite his lack of control it remains one of the deadliest long range jutsu in the whole story.
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Old 2006-12-21, 10:34   Link #57
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
As I already said the reason why Kakashi missed is already explained by Kakashi himself in the very chapter he used his jutsu : " I still can't properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area".
Which is at odds with what we actually see. One of the biggest problems with people on this forum is that they take what people say at face value (despite the fact that people can lie, are mistaken, etc.) while ignoring what actually happens as shown. We see effect target Deidara perfectly, and we see Deidara fly away. Perhaps he couldn't change the location of the jutsu once he's activated it, in which case he should have aimed at where Deidara would be instead of where he was. Better yet, he should have seen that the Jutsu wouldn't work and canceled it instead of wasting all that chakra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
So yeah by Kakashi's own admission he can't use this jutsu properly which is why he missed. And he used it because despite his lack of control it remains one of the deadliest long range jutsu in the whole story.
The technique is like the other Mangekyou Sharingan techniques: powerful but not cost effective. For the chakra cost of one space warp, Kakashi could have made several Kage Bunshin and have each one launch several lower powerd long range jutsu. Currently it hit 0.5/2 times on moving targets and costs 1/3 your chakra, making it useless for anything besides stationary targets with high defense. It also has all the weaknesses inherent in a high power single target jutsu.
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Old 2006-12-21, 11:45   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
Which is at odds with what we actually see. One of the biggest problems with people on this forum is that they take what people say at face value (despite the fact that people can lie, are mistaken, etc.) while ignoring what actually happens as shown. We see effect target Deidara perfectly, and we see Deidara fly away. Perhaps he couldn't change the location of the jutsu once he's activated it, in which case he should have aimed at where Deidara would be instead of where he was. Better yet, he should have seen that the Jutsu wouldn't work and canceled it instead of wasting all that chakra.
The explanation represents perfectly what happened. You merely invent problems where there is not because you were wrong.
Between Kishimoto's explanation through Kakashi the guy who uses and created the jutsu to begin with and an assumption invented out of nowhere contradicting it, I think I know where the "biggest problem with people on this forum" lies.
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Old 2006-12-21, 13:10   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
The technique is like the other Mangekyou Sharingan techniques: powerful but not cost effective. For the chakra cost of one space warp, Kakashi could have made several Kage Bunshin and have each one launch several lower powerd long range jutsu. Currently it hit 0.5/2 times on moving targets and costs 1/3 your chakra, making it useless for anything besides stationary targets with high defense. It also has all the weaknesses inherent in a high power single target jutsu.
Diedara used the most powerful blast he had in order to wipe out everybody. I don't think Kakashi had the time to make all those kage bunshin and the small jutsu stuff. He had to act quick and its as though he wasnt even sure that jutsu would work but he had no other choice but to try and use the space warp jutsu even if the jutsu likely failed because without that everyone would have died anyway, so he didnt think it mattered if he completly drains his chakra. Thats why he was relieved in the end saying that he made it in time.
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Old 2006-12-21, 13:22   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The explanation represents perfectly what happened. You merely invent problems where there is not because you were wrong.
Between Kishimoto's explanation through Kakashi the guy who uses and created the jutsu to begin with and an assumption invented out of nowhere contradicting it, I think I know where the "biggest problem with people on this forum" lies.
Isn't it possible that Kishi actually contradicts with himself based on the information we are provided later on? I am not talking about the specifics of Kakashi's comment (as that is completely different than Zabuza reading Kakashi's mind based on not the truth but his "perception" of the truth). But, doesn't it look strange that an almost depleted Kakashi having used MS in an almost perfectly controlled way in a very quick manner to send Deidara's bomb to another dimension? To me it does.
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