AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Rozen Maiden

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-12-25, 16:26   Link #301
devilgirl11
nosebleed from hot anime
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: estonia
Send a message via MSN to devilgirl11
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Wee, finished both OVA eps.

Apparently everyone sees what they want to see In my case (being a Shinku fan ) I can't understand how Shinku did anything wrong with trying to leave Suigintou out of the Alice game. According to Shinku, Rozen Maidens are the epitome of dolls fighting for perfection, Suigintou was flawed from the start so apparently Shinku thought (ok wrongly, but still) that there's no chance Suigintou can win even a fight against the other dolls, much more against her. What's bad in wanting Suigintou, who didn't even have a Rosa Mystiqua, to continue out of the Alice game as Sara's doll? Shinku did whatever was in her power to comfort and protect her. It's not Shinku's fault Suigintou went nuts. Shinku was telling the truth anyway, and even if she has her share of arrogance as a Rozen Maiden and as a presumed favorite, it was still the truth and Suigintou apparently knows it, that's why she gets so furious at being called Junk. Not to mention that it was Sui who went offensive and broke Shinkus brooch. Shinku had no will to fight against her. Not that it's Suigintou's fault either. You're bound to develop all sorts of complexes if you get in Suigintou's place, feeling abandoned for very long, feeling incomplete, junk, while seeing all your other sisters having all the things you desire. Yes, she was bound to get mad at Shinku, although it still isn't Shinku's fault.

Yup, Rozen sucks

But Shinku has always known that there are other ways to get to be Alice
devilgirl11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 17:26   Link #302
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
She did? I thought Rozen told her in the last S2 episode.
npal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 17:32   Link #303
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
Point : To pity someone is the lowest you could think about a person.

That seems to be what Gin never liked. Any person wouldn't like to feel looked down upon. Shinku was acting so high and mighty that it really wouldn't satisfy to look at her efforts as being kind, Shinku was still looking down on her. How'd you feel if you were looked down by your peers? Even if you're being helped... the feeling of being helpless just brings you down more. Shinku made some progress... but wasted it when she said those piercing words that offended Gin.
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 17:37   Link #304
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
Well, Shinku could have said the same things differently, but I didn't say she didn't have her share of arrogance. Still, she said it much gentler than a high-and-mighty-I-pity-you-lowly-lifeforce-out-of-my-sight. She tried to be considerate, her choice of words was not the best and that's her fault. But other than that, I don't think feeling sorry for someone is really bad. Shinku's expressions were shown multiple times, and they were expressions of kindness, sadness, pain and sympathy. And the high and mighty Shinku let her sleep in her own case. I do believe her caring about Suigintou was genuinely depicted. Yeah, her choice of words weren't good, but anyone else besides someone with Suigintou's past would think twice for going berserk on Shinku. Not that I blame Suigintou, it's not her fault that b@stard Rozen left her on the shelf.
npal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 17:39   Link #305
Fishbait
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Watched the 2nd episode by Over9000

This ova is sooooo great

Loved every bit of it

Spoiler:
Fishbait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 17:44   Link #306
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
feeling sorry is another thing... its different.

When you feel sorry for someone, you clearly need to make sure you improve her status. What Shinku did was absolute pity, not feeling sorry... just pity. Shinku could've tried Pulling Gin out of the N-Field, trying to save her...nee. She just silently watched as Souseiseki Sliced Gin rather than pulling her out from certain danger, and to think Gin saved her from Barasuishou!

Shinku should've given Gin enough confidence to stand alone. Telling her the truth would've stalled the domino effect because we all know how Gin is overprotective of her friends. The best option was to tell Gin the truth, give her more confidence, and acknowledge her,Not make her look like some kind of misfit.
__________________
Mercury Lampe

Last edited by aeriolewinters; 2006-12-25 at 17:56.
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 18:05   Link #307
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
Well, I never denied Shinku was arrogant. And being considered the best creation around, with a special gift doesn't help. The normal you would expect from such a one is crushing Suigintou on the spot or having her around as a servant, toy or whatever. I don't believe Shinku did any of those. If Shinku just pitied Suigintou, she wouldn't have taught her to walk, or any other stuff. She'd just go "you poor thing, boo hoo, such cruel fate". She actively tried to help her, although NOT as a Rozen Maiden. Her purpose was to make her happy and leave her as Sara's doll.

About the N-field, indeed I expected Shinku to try and get Gin out. The only explanation I can come up with is that, as Sou said, the requirements are met and she was a valid target and Shinku didn't want to actively stop Souseiseki, since those were the rules. I can imagine Suiseiseki running to Gin, but Shinku wasn't as developed a character as she became in S2 to actively go against the Alice game. I'm not saying she was right to stay where she was and just shout, but it felt to me like she couldn't do anything.
npal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 18:22   Link #308
Deathkillz
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk, England
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Deathkillz
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Wee, finished both OVA eps.

Apparently everyone sees what they want to see In my case (being a Shinku fan ) I can't understand how Shinku did anything wrong with trying to leave Suigintou out of the Alice game. According to Shinku, Rozen Maidens are the epitome of dolls fighting for perfection, Suigintou was flawed from the start so apparently Shinku thought (ok wrongly, but still) that there's no chance Suigintou can win even a fight against the other dolls, much more against her. What's bad in wanting Suigintou, who didn't even have a Rosa Mystiqua, to continue out of the Alice game as Sara's doll? Shinku did whatever was in her power to comfort and protect her. It's not Shinku's fault Suigintou went nuts. Shinku was telling the truth anyway, and even if she has her share of arrogance as a Rozen Maiden and as a presumed favorite, it was still the truth and Suigintou apparently knows it, that's why she gets so furious at being called Junk. Not to mention that it was Sui who went offensive and broke Shinkus brooch. Shinku had no will to fight against her. Not that it's Suigintou's fault either. You're bound to develop all sorts of complexes if you get in Suigintou's place, feeling abandoned for very long, feeling incomplete, junk, while seeing all your other sisters having all the things you desire. Yes, she was bound to get mad at Shinku, although it still isn't Shinku's fault.

Yup, Rozen sucks
truth huh? well would be telling the truth include stating to gin that she will be able to see father if she learns how to walk? do you think she would be happy knowing nothing but lies all the time being with shinku ~ she trusted her as she was her only and best friend but that lie really did it in for her feelings ~

whats the point of telling that she would be able to see rozen if in fact she doesnt have any chance at that state? pity? pity for the "poor one?" ~ that imo just pisses her (and me) off ~

sure it might have seemed kind at the time but really getting ones hopes up just to have it crashing back onto her head is nasty ~ shinku knew that she would have to tell her the truth sooner or later but why not sooner rather than waiting for boku to slash her up? if she was hoping for a soft lading with the truth it kina failed...in fact the landing was harder than if she had just told gin the truth in the first place...

well why did she lie? well shinku's intention wasnt bad ~ to let gin stay with sara as a normal doll but the fact is gin doesnt want that at all...no matter how much you try to talk to her about that fact all she wants is to be able to see rozen...telling her to just "live a normal life" is impossible...heck she even did the impossible by moving without a roza mystica is the first place ~ why? its because she loved her father soo much a miricle happened...its not because rozen willed it in the first place but gin's own feelings...those feelings wont be satisfied by living a normal life...

shinku was also selfish for being shocked at gin recieving a roza mystica from rozen...but how is it impossible? the proof is right in front of her eyes...the best thing to do would to accept a challenge and fight it over...that way it would have showed that shinku respected gin as a rozen maiden...but well as you can see she still has the image of gin being "less fortunate" than her being not complete...but who cares? gin isnt going to be ashamed of herself because she isnt complete all she wants is to meet rozen...

shinku was completely looking down at gin being a failure as a doll and doesnt even consider her as an exsistance...well she was wrong...and gin broke her most precious thing to prove it...sure gin could have kept the broach as a item of his fathers...but the feeling wont be there ~ it was because the broach was a gift to shinku and gin aimed to let out her anger at shinku by taking away something precious to her...blame gin? hell no! shinku brought it onto herself ~

and this is all comming from a gin sama fanboy
__________________

Siggy: hohohohoho~ | AnimeHistory welcome to our blog ~ | Summer2009 early review
Under the radar series Summer2009: Kanamemo, GA Geijutsuka Art, NEEDLESS
Deathkillz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 18:34   Link #309
ChibiAurora
The Chibi Phoenix
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Who wants to know?
Age: 24
Okay, as much as I love our beloved Black-featherd Princess, and as much as I hate Stinku, I think they're both at fault. While SuiginTou suffered from an infireority complex, Shinku suffered from a superiority complex.

Spoiler:
ChibiAurora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 18:53   Link #310
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
^I think that Gin's inferiority complex was a result of Shinku looking down on her. If Shinku didn't look down on her and gave her confidence, I would rest assure that Gin wouldn't have acted that way... not unless somebody like laplace would screw her up.
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 18:55   Link #311
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
feeling sorry is another thing... its different.

When you feel sorry for someone, you clearly need to make sure you improve her status. What Shinku did was absolute pity, not feeling sorry... just pity. Shinku could've tried Pulling Gin out of the N-Field, trying to save her...nee. She just silently watched as Souseiseki Sliced Gin rather than pulling her out from certain danger, and to think Gin saved her from Barasuishou!
Errrr helping someone if you feel sorry for them is pitying isn't it? Helping someone because it is the right thing to do is what I believe Shinku did.

Shinku didn't just stand there she was shouting at Gin to run and for Sou not to do it... were we watching the same thing? And why should she try to pull Gin out of the glowing pool thing, Gin looked like she was chopped in half and Shinku believed that Gin was about to disappear because she had died (this is my opinion )

Shinku told Gin what she thought was the truth, and that was that Gin was not a RM. The fact is we do know that Shinku knows that Gin was not completed and did not have a Rosa Mystica.

Gin _thinks_ that Shinku is pitying her and Sou _thinks_ that Shinku lied to her.

Shinku clearly states that she believes that Gin does not need to join the Alice game (which I believe we all believe is a cruel and brutal game). Hey I would go for Shinku's choice if I met a long lost sibling and I was involved in some sick and twisted thing.

If you believe that Shinku telling Gin that she can meet father is a lie then what would you do? Burst her dreams, tell her Santa does not exist? More to the point no one knows how to meet father. Which why I believe why Shinku looked so shocked. It wasn't because Gin was given a Rosa Mystica it was that father appeared.... (Well that and Gin raising from the dead)

Shinku can't win in either of these two peoples eyes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Shinku should've given Gin enough confidence to stand alone. Telling her the truth would've stalled the domino effect because we all know how Gin is overprotective of her friends. The best option was to tell Gin the truth, give her more confidence, and acknowledge her,Not make her look like some kind of misfit.
How would you deliver this truth to Gin? I have trouble seeing how Gin when she first meets Shinku would deal with it, she couldn't after she has had time to get some r&r.

After watching the scene where Gin snaps again, all I can say is that all the stuff that makes Gin hate Shinku is all in Gin's head.
  • You think you are superior
  • laughing at her
  • it's just chance that you were created well
  • I only exist to heighten your position

Only the first point can be counted as something Shinku actually did, but the thing is at the time Shinku was right 100% as Gin was not completed and did not have a Rosa Mystica. Even after Gin got the Rosa Mystica she still wasn't completed.

All Shinku wanted to do was to make sure that Gin had a happy life and now if that is pity, then all good parents pity us as children...
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 18:57   Link #312
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
shinku was also selfish for being shocked at gin recieving a roza mystica from rozen...but how is it impossible? the proof is right in front of her eyes...the best thing to do would to accept a challenge and fight it over...that way it would have showed that shinku respected gin as a rozen maiden...but well as you can see she still has the image of gin being "less fortunate" than her being not complete...but who cares? gin isnt going to be ashamed of herself because she isnt complete all she wants is to meet rozen...
Well, yes, the start of the encounter wasn't good. It makes one believe that Shinku really only looks down on Suigintou, incomplete and yet she was given a Rosa Mystiqua, which makes her eligible to be Alice, which must have seemed like a joke to Shinku, who considered herself almost perfect. However, I believe there's more than just pity in Shinku's actions. There are several things that point to Shinku wanting to help Suigintou have a good life away from the Alice game, because, indeed, she considered her too weak to win. And even when Suigintou GOT a Rosa Mystiqua, she still told her that she can't get in the game? Why not? Well, a way to have put it would be "You're not match for me, just leave or I'll kill you". Even if Shinku felt like that, she didn't threaten Suigintou. It was more of a try to dissuade her from entering the Alice game. I don't think Shinku was being just pitiful. A way to summarize Shinku's words would be "You're incomplete, you're different from us, I wanted you to live happily, please go back, you'll die". Obviously Shinku thinks herself superior but I didn't detect any malice or contempt on her part. Indeed to me it seemed like she was protecting someone less fortunate. Shinku could have acted much better in various occassions, but there was no ill intent or that much of a high arrogance as some argue.

But Shinku calling Suigintou "junk" was anticipated. Suigintou broke her most treasured possession, which is also the symbol of her superiority. So Shinku attacked Suigintou the same way, where it hurt the most.
npal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:02   Link #313
Blablabla
Zetsubo-sensei daaaaaa !!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
truth huh? well would be telling the truth include stating to gin that she will be able to see father if she learns how to walk? do you think she would be happy knowing nothing but lies all the time being with shinku ~ she trusted her as she was her only and best friend but that lie really did it in for her feelings ~
Cos' Shinku had to find something to make Gin moving. Yes she was lying to her, but she was lying like your mother used to lie to you when she told you to be a good boy (or girl, I dunno) to have your Xmas presents from Santa.

Shinku didn't think in the bad way... she only acted like nurses act with Megu. Trying to give her hope (even if it's false hope), in order de cheer her on and let her have, at least a happy life, even if it would be short, and without Rozen... since it was impossible for Gin to reach him.

How do you think Gin would have reacted if Shinku had told her the truth ? She would have ended up with more tears, despair and suffering than she used to bear all her life long. Sure, this would have been better than a happy life with Sarah.

And now Gin is facing someone who is in the same state than she was... and she is doing almost the same thing than Shinku did for her.
__________________
Tchhhuuuuuri-pu wa kaze ni ikata no kyou kou mu ita....
Blablabla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:04   Link #314
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
^I think that Gin's inferiority complex was a result of Shinku looking down on her. If Shinku didn't look down on her and gave her confidence, I would rest assure that Gin wouldn't have acted that way... not unless somebody like laplace would screw her up.
Errr personally I think being left on a shelf, missing half her body and not having a glowing rose thing probably had a bigger impact... Oh and the big thing most probably believing that father does not love her, and Shinku is the best and easiest target... Look at the last scene Gin isn't looking for an explanation, at the best she is trying to convince herself at the worse she really believes it already.

Shinku isn't her best friend (that takes a lot more then that), she her bleeping sister... come on do the Sui chant!
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:05   Link #315
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
Quote:
Hey I would go for Shinku's choice if I met a long lost sibling and I was involved in some sick and twisted thing.
But if it involves lying to her, that wouldn't be great. Because one way or another, she'll eventually know. Besides, that's called being selfish. In anyone's point of view, you need to let her know the situation. Even if it is very cruel and crude.
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:08   Link #316
the.Merines
Seeker of Power
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ΔHidden Forbidden Holy Ground
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to the.Merines Send a message via MSN to the.Merines
You guys crack me up.

Blame everything on Rozen.
__________________
I am bound to pay the debt I owe.
the.Merines is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:10   Link #317
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
But if it involves lying to her, that wouldn't be great. Because one way or another, she'll eventually know. Besides, that's called being selfish. In anyone's point of view, you need to let her know the situation. Even if it is very cruel and crude.
Hmm to lie or to stab someone's heart out with the truth..... If I was in Shinku's position and I really wanted to tell her the truth, I would have waited until I thought that Gin was strong enough to deal with it...

Hell if I wanted to tell her the truth I would have had a long good hard look in the mirror and ask myself how evil have I gotten. What I would have done would have been the same as Shinku (keep this so called truth from Gin) and then done my damnedest to make sure that Gin could meet father from another method...

Forget about telling children that Santa doesn't exist, do you tell an adopted child that they are?

@the.Merines - hee hee personally I am and I really didn't like his smile when he revived Gin...
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:10   Link #318
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
Quote:
she only acted like nurses act with Megu
The problem is, the nurses were instilling the TRUTH. Shinku on the other hand, was lying.

Bottom line is, the Truth hurts... but at the same time, It gives us hope. Nothing wrong with saying the truth. Would you let anyone live a lie? Heck If they were in inverse positions, I would've flaked Gin for doing that.
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:17   Link #319
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Would you let anyone live a lie?
If I believed that the truth would let them die...
__________________
grey_moon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-12-25, 19:19   Link #320
aeriolewinters
Gin-Sama no Tameni!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Balanga City, Bataan, Philippines
Send a message via Yahoo to aeriolewinters
Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
If I believed that the truth would let them die...
But it still is your opinion. The decision on how you live or die doesn't fall into your hands. Who are you to decide on how somebody will live?
__________________
Mercury Lampe
aeriolewinters is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
adventure, comedy, drama, fantasy, nomad, ova, peach-pit, seinen, sequel, supernatural

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.