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Old 2007-01-07, 06:39   Link #461
Blablabla
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And to top it all, Suiseiseki did her "desu smashing Jun desu".
"Petit sized" ningen do not have sexy joints desu
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Old 2007-01-07, 09:02   Link #462
solwyvern
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Ahh, I was waiting for this.
Now, let's see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu
Arrogant and vainness as the one whom Father loved the most, the one who was stronger amongst all of the Rozen Maiden and the one who was destined to become Alice...; having recieved Rozen's most precious gift and not knowing any pain or suffering automaticaly placed her (in her own head) above all the other dools..., even if sometimes it was not her intention to do such..
mmm, ... quite.
One of the things that really ticks me is that- Shinku, really believes herself to be the 'superior' doll. Superior in every way.
These caps pretty much says it.



Arrogant AND Vain.
Battling Souseiseki she acts as though it were nothing important, and already feels as the victor. And becuase she was the one who was given a brooch she feels more special. BUT, I don't blame Shinku for this.

If you were to ask me, the one to look at would be Rozen. Yes, I really think Rozen is at fault. Maybe, during this time,... we are looking at a younger more ignorant and foolish Rozen -who knew the only way to make Alice was to make the dolls battle it till end.
All his actions seem very well planned. It seems he intentionally gives Shinku the brooch only to implant the fiery rage in Suigiontou's heart.
It goes on and on. Rozen is an evil genious I say! XD

I'm guessing, in Traumend, that's where Rozen finds another method to make Alice without following the Alice game, but these are just my random thoughts.
I don't blame any of the dolls particularly.

-

Although Ouverture has answered many questions, there are still many that hasn't filled in the gaps: ..uhh.. like:

•During this time Shinku already knew who Laplace was.
•Was it really Rozen who instructed them that they must fight to become Alice that they may meet him?
•What of Kirakishou?

list goes on. ~




◄≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡≡►
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
Okay. Here, I have a sad announcement to make. Looks I will miss watching the wide-screen version of Ouverture.
Lost, this is very disturbing news. Even, I'm troubled with it. =/
You've been one of the very active members here, (I'm more of a reader than a writer so I often come here to read) and it would be really sad if you had to temporarily leave. Well, wish you luck and hope you get through it soon. ^^
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Old 2007-01-07, 09:55   Link #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost View Post
►►►---------------------------------------------------------------------------◄◄◄

Okay. Here, I have a sad announcement to make. Looks I will miss watching the wide-screen version of Ouverture.

Due to overwhelming circumstances in my home country, I will have to take a forced hiatus from downloading and watching Anime (Bascially, if I don't want my butt sued off). It's very sad that my Anime downloading days may be coming to an abrupt end, but I guess, looking at it from perspective, that this comes at a "good" time since it will afford me more time to focus on my school work, especially in regard to my final report, which more or less governs if I graduate with honours or not. I guess it also accelerates another longer hiatus of a few years I will have to take in the near future, due to my being enlisted.

So, I guess this will be the last of Lost you'll see in a while, at least for the months of January and Febuary; I'll still lurk around here tho, but it pains me not to be able to add anything new to discussions, especially of up-coming Anime I have had to drop from my to-watch list.

Ja ne.
For a second I thought you on hiatus because the Underwater internet cables got its ass kicked due to the Taiwan Earthquake. Good luck to you, trust me the hair shaving is nice when it's your turn.
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Old 2007-01-07, 10:31   Link #464
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oh dear Lost that is sad news hopes you come back soon ~ and GL with ya work
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Old 2007-01-07, 10:44   Link #465
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Talking

You guys make it seem as though Lost is going to jail or something. Look on the bright side, he's going to get an allowance; and if he is lucky, he may score an easy vocation after BMT.

Narf.
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Old 2007-01-07, 10:49   Link #466
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
You guys make it seem as though Lost is going to jail or something. Look on the bright side, he's going to get an allowance; and if he is lucky, he may score an easy vocation after BMT.

Narf.
I doubt, when I posted to new unit, 90% went combat, I was the lucky 10% who went 8 to 5.
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Old 2007-01-07, 11:07   Link #467
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Not all combat vocations are stay-in vocations. I should know. I was 8-6 despite being Combat Status.

But we derail.

Souseiseki Banzai!
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Old 2007-01-07, 18:45   Link #468
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Now I've saw both parts (half-drunk in the 2nd one, nevermind), all I can say is that:
A. Yes, it's nice to see how it all happened in the past, the feelings, sadness and suffering all into one, though I feel it's too much right now with poor Gin-chan, showing her having not one, but two imperfections (wings??). One more time, another anime that makes me cry (I felt sooooo bad when she was smashed into the wall, worst even when she was cut by the waist -i could'nt help to blame Sou about that.)

B. The producers are getting too compicated with the plot points. There are very different from the manga, and for as I think that Peach-Pit did have no involvement in this Ova, at the end they may finish the story (if they do before i die -3rd season now!!!) with some wtf-happened-here argument.

C. It was VERY short for my taste. Or at least they could have erased all that scenes form the present. The final battle, also, makes us want to see Rozen Maiden first season all over again, only to know who won at the end (for me, that end sucked). So masochist...
I add that I'm probably the only person I found who liked 2nd season end (come on, they come back, leave all drama behind), so to see another Battle Royale would be great for me -yeah, I think exactly like Sou; no coincidence.

D. Was it too expensive to put Kira for some little two or three seconds? Her story, if they keep hiding her like that, will make ti for another Ova

All the other things have been told so far. I repeat, pray a lot for a third season to come.
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Old 2007-01-07, 18:57   Link #469
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It's been mentioned before, but Ouverture did a great job of telling us exactly why Gin is the way she is. It isn't meant to be anything more or anything less, unless you count reinforcing Shinku's personality. For me, this is just another piece of evidence pointing towards the inevitability of season 3. You mentioned the obvious differences appearing between the manga and the anime; Kirakishou is already an active character in the manga, while she appears for 3 seconds in the anime... Yet people seem to be so hung up on the fact that Kira isn't in Ouverture. Hmm....

Then again, if DVD sales are poor, maybe no season 3... but they won't be. =p
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Old 2007-01-07, 22:27   Link #470
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I don't see why Shinku gets such a bad rap. I think this OVA gave her some good development, since in the modern day she refuses to fight the dolls like that. Sou was also fairly arrogant, and it seems Sui has been the only one opposed to it all along.
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Old 2007-01-08, 03:53   Link #471
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I'm totally into Suigintou being the focal point of Ouveture but the other RMs were also developed as characters . Shinku was trying to keep Suigintou out for the better of her and the Alice game. The way things turned out was in no way the orchestration of a single doll.

The blame falls solely on Rozen. Where's season 3? :]
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Old 2007-01-08, 04:23   Link #472
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@Solwy :
Quote:
Originally Posted by solwyvern
If you were to ask me, the one to look at would be Rozen. Yes, I really think Rozen is at fault. Maybe, during this time,... we are looking at a younger more ignorant and foolish Rozen -who knew the only way to make Alice was to make the dolls battle it till end.
-
I'm guessing, in Traumend, that's where Rozen finds another method to make Alice without following the Alice game, but these are just my random thoughts.
I don't blame any of the dolls particularly.
Though the two of us had already discussed this in chat yesterday, for those here who might still consider placing all the blames upon Rozen as an option to explain to what happened, I have to say... please.. do not jump to conclusions without giving the chance to look at every aspect from all the possible prespectives.

It is true that it was Rozen's choice to bestow (if we might call it that) this burden upon Gin's shoulders.., depriving her of any love and affection, leaving her to watch how much he cared for each other Rozen Maiden that was created..; however none can say that (even though this was something beyond words to endure) it didn't happen for a reason..
Here follows a small quote from my post in the last page; I got to speak on this subject but due to the tremendous mass of text I feel it kind of got a bit overlooked..

Quote:
If it was Rozen's plan to deprive Gin of love and affection so that she could experience the pain of beeing alone and outcasted, learning then compassion towards those in the same position..; And above all on her own still fightning and showing love for that which made her the way she was, hopeing to prove that she was worth becoming Alice instead of just thinking " I am worth it "..., we might never know.., but I myself.. would like to think so..
We might never know in fact if such was always the plan intened by Rozen from the begining, but one thing is certain.. this experience gaved Gin a unique prespective on life, something compleatly diferent that no other Rozen Maiden had; and in my eyes... essencial for the process to one day reach Alice.


As for the other possible ways to become Alice now, I have often stated that one of the main reasons the Alice Game consists in, is in beeing sort of a Catalyst for each Rozen Maiden to experience the consequences of they're choices, since it is in fact what it is all about.. the choices one takes and how one is affected by them..
Hence.. I am pretty positive that the other possible ways have existed from the begining since Rozen created them; the Alice Game was only presented first as the first and (to they're knowledge at the time) only choice to serve the purpose of a Test to they're choices.

~

@_duangelique :
Quote:
Originally Posted by _duangelique
Yes, it's nice to see how it all happened in the past, the feelings, sadness and suffering all into one, though I feel it's too much right now with poor Gin-chan, showing her having not one, but two imperfections (wings??)
I think you are mistaking an aspect from the Manga here, which is where I belive one of Gin's regrets was the cracks in her back from where her wings sprouted out. (please correct me if I am rong)
In the Anime Gin only has 1 imperfection; this beeing the lack of a lower torso as we all know.

Actualy I found amazing that no one had mencioned this so far.., one of the many answers given to us in Ouverture, when related to Gin, was in fact that she in the Anime was never created with wings, as from the first time we watched Season 1 always assumed otherwhise.

It was incredible to see that her wings where actualy formed of her will alone, like they resembled her feelings given form..., blinded in ire it was if she was able to channel all of her strength and feelings into a manifestation of power, awakening it for the first time.
Black wings are a sign in angels who have fallen from grace ; taking in look at all the pain Gin endured and how she felt betrayed by Shinku.. I have to say.., they clearly resemble her fellings.., as to how fallen she became.
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Last edited by Alu; 2007-01-08 at 05:35.
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Old 2007-01-08, 12:12   Link #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu View Post
Actualy I found amazing that no one had mencioned this so far.., one of the many answers given to us in Ouverture, when related to Gin, was in fact that she in the Anime was never created with wings, as from the first time we watched Season 1 always assumed otherwhise.
Ahem. *points*
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Old 2007-01-08, 16:55   Link #474
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I find it quite amazing how so many think of Rozen as the source of all the evil and the false Alice Game.
Given how Gin-sama couldn't have possibly ever become Alice in the incomplete state without her RM I find it impossible that Rozen could have been able to foresee her becoming animated and sentient on her own. Let alone being able to determine that the events to come would be beneficial or even essential for the outcome in the game. And in the case that nothing would have happened? Would Gin-sama have been given her RM and the ability to actually become Alice anyhow? We can't see Rozen overlooking her progress anywhere, more likely he couldn't find Gin-sama until she had fallen into the watery N-Field after being cut in half by Sou.

As for the missing abdomen, if Rozen wasn't able to make one good enough to begin with and thus left Suigintou to be finished later, how could he conjure up one for her on such a short notice when handing out her RM? Not going to make a complete repost from the Träumend thread, but this'll be another long post anyhow...

Also, as Enju said it in träumend ep.8 it is love that keeps the dolls alive, no matter how far apart you are, love will reach them. It is very unlikely that the Maidens would love Rozen as much as they do if they would feel that their father doesn't really love them, but actually feels sorry for his creations that were short of becoming Alice. Love that overcomes sistership makes Shinku willing to fight "to be able to see Father again" just like Souseiseki did.
It's unimaginable how any father would truly want to see his daughters destroying each other and being unable to find their own happiness for his own lust for creating the perfect girl.

Personally I do not understand certain emotions, due a certain "personality disorder" that makes me unable to actually feel emotions. But that makes it all the more easier for me to see this in others and I fail to see this kind of lust in Rozen that is more visible in Enju and prominent in Shirosaki.

Even if Rozen was selfish to a certain degree as for creating the Maidens for a certain purpose, is it not also true that having real children is in fact a selfish act, a form of self indulgence "I'll give this child everything, like she deserves" can be read, I will be happy because my child will be happy if I do this. This is only from one point of view, did anyone ever ask their child if they'd actually want to be born into a world like this or for a certain reason? Did anyone ask others if it is alright for me to have a child? What is the difference between having a child born with physical imperfections than being unable to create a complete doll before it became sentient on its own? What Rozen did may be selfish indeed, but we are all partly to blame for this because that is only how we see it. Ask from any of the Maidens and they'd think of it totally differently, they're actually happy to have such a father, and it seems as though Rozen's feelings for his Maidens are pure.

Truely all the Maidens love Father, is this not enough a proof that he is far from being a villain in the show like Laplace is? It is irrational why emotions make us think of things only from our point of view, seeing as how the Alice Game hurts the dolls, we blame Rozen for creating the dolls "for his purposes." Forget not that if it weren't for Rozen, we wouldn't even have such adorable dolls being able to decide for themselves! I can't see Rozen anywhere forcing them to whack each other into junk, what I do see is complicated emotions clashing between Shinku and Gin-sama, understandable, no? I would most certainly forget how thankful I am for my friends being there if they told me that what they have done to me wasn't out of friendship, but pity. What is see is Souseiseki's determination to see Father, falling for Laplace's little Rozen's crying scene avec Barasuishou as narrator. Gin-sama caring for Megu enough to fall for Bara's deceitful "if you had a Roza Mystica, healing her would be a small task".

I truly believe that Rozen had told Shinku and the other dolls of another way of becoming Alice from the beginning, but for one reason or another, probably due to Bastard Bunny's manipulation, they forgot this soon and only went to persuade the "easy way" shown by him, as long as I can see Father, nothing else matters... especially if you're as determined as Sou, as noble as Shinku or blinded by rage like Gin after the chain reaction of unfortunate misunderstandings in ouvertüre ep.2.

Suigintou's wings are indeed a powerful symbol, a fallen angel, one who once was pure and innocent fallen into darkness. Notice how she becomes aware of Shinku's reasons for taking care of her only after she received her Roza Mystica. I believe that while the RM contains an essence of the creator, they are somehow originated in Laplace and that would be the origins of the negative emotions. The second ouvertüre ep. isn't named vanity for no reason, Shinku's vanity for thinking she's better, Gin's vanity for thinking she has to be at least as good as... no, better than someone like Shinku, she was chosen by Father after all...

We can't hear Rozen's words, would probably be too much of a spoiler. BUT think of this, Gin-sama was happy, she was overjoyed when she told Shinku that she now has her RM, I am a Rozen Maiden, Father loves me too... isn't this wonderful Shinku, we're sisters? She was obviously willing to disregard Shinku's previous actions based on pity if she was to accept Gin as her sister. Shinku... well anyone as conceited as she was at the time would react the same "but you're..... JUNK! She can't be made by MY Father... it can't be... I'm... not like that." How would you react to that? There's always two to a fight, they are both to blame, Shinku could have accepted Gin-sama as a sister like she is. Gin-sama could have disregarded Shinku's disbelief and think "duh, what's her problem, I know I'm RM, that's quite enough for me!" But from personal experience as one who's had a horrible case of inferiority complex, I know you end up lashing out in anger... ofcourse she had to destroy what Shinku held most dear to her, second only to Father himself. Ye well, although not such a good memory, I've also gone through a Shinku phase in my life, thinking most people are just blind because they refuse to see what's right before them, deaf, because they refuse to listen to reason. How can't you see you're incomplete, how can't you see you're acting stupid?

Feelings, emotions and pure logic often contradict, that is why I decided to post my views based on pure logic, even as I am mostly a listener, since before I've mostly been thought of as an egoist for so forcibly sharing my views, I'd like to make it clear: All the more criticism and all the "do you really think you would know any better?" comments, the better, I'm not hindered by shame, regret, fear and I'll hand out my opinion even if no one listens since I can. I know nothing, no more no less than anyone else, unless you're the one writing the story for season 3.
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Old 2007-01-08, 17:06   Link #475
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Oh damn, already a long post enough, but don't think from a retrospect, why hate Shinku, why despise Father, if it weren't for them, there couldn't be a chance for a happy ending, and I can't say the dolls would be all too unhappy as they are. We wouldn't have the same characters, there'd be nothing between Gin and Megu, wouldn't have the same events if it weren't for what went between Gin and Shinku. Mmmm right, emotions :P

I like all the dolls, save for perhaps Kanaria, she's a bit too annoying for my taste, not to mention she can't play a violin, save for the discord that causes havoc. Had she actually ever played it I might actually think better of her. So I don't have any personal preference really, save for Gin-sama being alot like myself in many aspects.
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Old 2007-01-08, 19:11   Link #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kageitenshi View Post
Suigintou's wings are indeed a powerful symbol, a fallen angel, one who once was pure and innocent fallen into darkness. Notice how she becomes aware of Shinku's reasons for taking care of her only after she received her Roza Mystica.
Very nice post, I kept thinking that I was reading something by Alu

Oooo I like your angel wings point ties into how Gin's perception of Shinku changed after she got the RM, kinda like eating the forbidden fruit neh?
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Old 2007-01-08, 23:28   Link #477
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Forbidden fruit was an afterthought, actually... But quite fitting, is it not so that if it weren't for the forbidden fruit we'd all be limited to one will, one rule. Empty and meaningless life, repetition of yesterday locked in today that we'd know is like every other day, calling it paradise... No one gets hurt, but life as such would be meaningless. If Roza Mystica gives you life at the cost of innocence, would you prefer to die innocent without a meaningful existence. If you are given freedom of choice and individuality at the cost of not being able to like some people more than others, would you rather die unspoiled by hate but never feeling true love?

No one's life's an exception to the rule that your life is mostly what you make of it, the only limit to this is within. Thinking there's nothing I can do is meaningless, just as it is meaningless to think others are to blame if you know your own weaknesses and feel something needs to change. Being unable to is one thing, finding a way to overcome that is another. Not trying hard enough is something we might be able forgive ourselves, not living our lives is something we may or may not regret. Rozen has clearly shown this, his children may have gotten lost on the way, needing a little guidance, but he has given them freedom. If it were for ambition to creating Alice, would he have given the maidens freedom of choice and individuality to such degree that they might end up hurting each other due to differences in their personalities? Knowing it would hurt not only the maidens but himself. If he had only wanted to create Alice I doubt the Rozen Maidens would have ever gotten as far as living with Jun, fighting with Barasuishou and all.

I'm an atheist, if I were to believe in any deity, I'd believe it'd be much more forgiving than any human is, after all, what people make out of god or written "evidence" is but one opinion. An opinion formed out of fear, greed, lust, desires... "fear god for unbelievers shall not be forgiven, pray for his forgiveness and you shall find paradise" and what not. Whoever twisted such a good will into a monster for personal desires, inciting fear and finding a reason to even kill others is the true monster to be feared and we all have that monster lurking within...
Not all religions are like this, just like everyone sees religion and faith in their own way. One person might find this offensive, another one might shrug it off as just another opinion while granting the freedom for this.

I bring this up since Rozen could be seen as such a god figure and indeed, by his "followers" he is seen as such, a loved being enveloped in light, not fully remembered but never forgotten. Others, like so many on these boards blame him for the Alice Game and the unfortunate chain of events. But as such, Rozen is not evil, he's loving, caring, gives his children a second chance, Gin-sama's already been repaired twice. No other god has done anything like this in such a manner, yet he's being blamed, since he's but a man. Those who are in faith should know what I mean by this, those who don't can see the effects. So many pray to the same god for their own purpose, so many people in war fighting each other think "god is with us" when things are going well, while the other side thinks "god must have forsaken us, curse him". What could any god possibly do in such a situation having already given us freedom? What could Rozen have done what he hasn't already done so far if he hasn't been able to directly intervene since the beginning? People want miracles... who's going to make them come true if not ourselves. In religious terms, it is our burden to carry our sin of having eaten the fruit of the forbidden tree, but the freedom of will to carry on despite this and making the best of it is our legacy.

Ever noticed just how most decent anime series have such more or less hidden messages within? How so many of them make a good attempt at telling us that we have only one life, we should make the best of it for not only ourselves but for others. How easily is that all forgotten... oh how easy it is, the true problem lies exactly there, it's so much harder to actually live the way we already know we should. This is exactly why they make characters in any play or tv program the way that there's always people who can familiarize with a certain character or characters. Sit back and enjoy the show!

Must watch Ouvertüre again just to see Gin-sama's smile! BBL
Edit: Mmm, enough of a smile for a while now! Got to love that ending song, Utsusemi no Kage by Kukui.
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Old 2007-01-09, 14:32   Link #478
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great posts Kageitenshi so it seems that alu has a new challenger ~ well point being...we have another gin sama fan ^__^ *waves flag*
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Old 2007-01-09, 14:46   Link #479
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Challenger? Merely speaking my mind: "in the eyes of a child, mother is god" is what I had in mind when writing that... and hello to you too!
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Old 2007-01-11, 12:42   Link #480
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Age: 37
Saw this one in the Image thread, and made me think of a simple POV

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1066

How does one feel superior if they don't have anyone inferior around them

Gloating infront of a dead enemy is half the fun compared to gloating infront of a
disabled enemy

Like teasing a dog with his bone, you won't feel powerfull if the animal is just lying there

Sou treated Gin as a Rozen Maiden, Shinku treated Gin like a retard
like some people treat handicapped as if they're not human, even though they have the same desires as healthy people
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