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Old 2007-01-14, 16:32   Link #541
the.Merines
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Whatever alchemic talent allowed him to make living dolls has probably granted him a super-extended lifespan. That goes for Enju as well- the dude looks the same in ~traumend~ as he did in Ouverture!
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Old 2007-01-14, 17:19   Link #542
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
He gives life to DOLLS He gives them magical stones with power His, apparently, servant, the bunny, seems eternal, so why not him? He can probably teleport through the N-field instantaneously to find the broken dolls, and also has a workshop set up in the N-field to repair dolls (or he's reached a level where he doesn't even need tools). So yeah... I think him being immortal is a minor detail
Rozen is GOD. He created humans, but humans turned to IVEUL miserable, ugly creatures and began to turn back from him... so he decided to create dolls, sexier thanks to the joints, in particulary Alice, HIS doll who will be worth to stay with him... but he failed.
God don't like humans anymore, that's why he decided to make them energy supply for his dolls. To show them that even if they think high of themselves, they are nothing. His dolls are supperior, he is supperior, bwa ha ha ha !
Now you understand why Shinku and Desu are the most suitable to become Alice. They both kept this superior complex toward humans. Alice game is just a formality, the winner must be one of those two.

Merines :
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2.) Rozen probably told them at some point. Remember that one of the rules of the Alice Game is that it can't truly begin until all seven Maiden are awake.
But Rozen Maiden = Rosa Mystica... Rozen left Gin without giving her a Rosa Mystica. So how could Rozen tell to the other dolls to fight a doll whom he didn't give what they need to become Alice ?

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After all Shinku was able to see the doll left on the shelf, but she was asleep throught the opening.
In the fist moments of Traumend, we see Shinku waking up (but no broch !!) And Gin was watching. So Shinku may have seen her then.
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Old 2007-01-14, 18:12   Link #543
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Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
Merines :
But Rozen Maiden = Rosa Mystica... Rozen left Gin without giving her a Rosa Mystica. So how could Rozen tell to the other dolls to fight a doll whom he didn't give what they need to become Alice ?
you know...knowing rozen i bet he did that on purpose to stirr crap up...he was bored of just playing by the rules so decides to add grudge into the mix via gin and shinku...i bet hes looking from above laughing at the dolls tear each other apart so fiercely the psyco guy T_T

but i dont think that a rozen maiden doll has to have a rosa mystica...its just needed in order to become alice so i think that a rozen maiden refer to the dolls that rozen completed...in gin's case half completed...

he must have told the other dolls that there are 7 in total but forgot where he put the first one..."oh well" *shrugs*
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Old 2007-01-14, 18:16   Link #544
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he must have told the other dolls that there are 7 in total but forgot where he put the first one..."oh well" *shrugs*
LOL

"Listen, my children. You need to strive to become Alice. All seven of you."
Shinku: "Seven, Father?"
"Eh... Did I say seven...? Well, it was supposed to be seven. Hmm... Six... where the hell did I put the other one... Oh who cares, what could possibly go wrong?"
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Old 2007-01-14, 18:39   Link #545
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I don't think Rozen planned on completing Suigintou. Ever. He left her unfinished for a reason.

However, I do think he noticed and began to watch her when she began moving on her own. Remember: Rozen wants Alice more than anything. If he leaves a doll half-finished, yet she still becomes aware and sentient without extended prodding from him, wouldn't that make her worthy of at least getting a chance? I'd bet that Rozen didn't "plan" on Suigintou waking up on her own, but once he noticed that she had, he simply waited for a chance to finally reward her by giving her a Rosa Mystica.

So yes, the Rosa Mystica makes a true Rozen Maiden, but a living doll made by Rozen for the purpose of becoming Alice is also a Rozen Maiden in a limited sense. Rozen knew he had seven pieces of Rosa Mystica which had to be combined to create Alice. Maybe he planned on making another doll, but noticed the fact that Suigintou had awakened before he started? To go really far out on a limb, maybe he was interrupted during his creation of Kirakishou by Suigintou, and he lost Kirakishou's design when it was stolen by Enju.

I dunno. It's fun to speculate.
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Old 2007-01-14, 18:59   Link #546
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Originally Posted by the.Merines View Post
I don't think Rozen planned on completing Suigintou. Ever. He left her unfinished for a reason.

However, I do think he noticed and began to watch her when she began moving on her own. Remember: Rozen wants Alice more than anything. If he leaves a doll half-finished, yet she still becomes aware and sentient without extended prodding from him, wouldn't that make her worthy of at least getting a chance? I'd bet that Rozen didn't "plan" on Suigintou waking up on her own, but once he noticed that she had, he simply waited for a chance to finally reward her by giving her a Rosa Mystica.

So yes, the Rosa Mystica makes a true Rozen Maiden, but a living doll made by Rozen for the purpose of becoming Alice is also a Rozen Maiden in a limited sense. Rozen knew he had seven pieces of Rosa Mystica which had to be combined to create Alice. Maybe he planned on making another doll, but noticed the fact that Suigintou had awakened before he started? To go really far out on a limb, maybe he was interrupted during his creation of Kirakishou by Suigintou, and he lost Kirakishou's design when it was stolen by Enju.

I dunno. It's fun to speculate.
No, I don't think so. He had her outfit all picked out and everything, and even reserved the title of first Rozen Maiden for her before she was even finished. He had to have planned on finishing her at some point, since not finishing her would mess up his numbering scheme.
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Old 2007-01-14, 19:09   Link #547
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Originally Posted by the.Merines View Post
However, I do think he noticed and began to watch her when she began moving on her own. Remember: Rozen wants Alice more than anything. If he leaves a doll half-finished, yet she still becomes aware and sentient without extended prodding from him, wouldn't that make her worthy of at least getting a chance?
That's why he told her that "even her, she can become Alice". Because yes, those words she said in Shinku's arms before dying was actually Rozen's ones the fisrt time she met him, the time he gave her the Rosa Mystica.... and not Enju's when he brought her back to live when we may (me in particulary) have believed 'til then.

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No, I don't think so. He had her outfit all picked out and everything, and even reserved the title of first Rozen Maiden for her before she was even finished. He had to have planned on finishing her at some point, since not finishing her would mess up his numbering scheme.
Maybe before completing her, he had Kanaria's idea in his mind and chose to bring that idea to life instead of finishing Gin. And after Kanaria, he though about desu, boku etc... but notice that in Gin's memories, we don't see Hina Ichigo.... neither in Shinku's first awaking flash back.
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Old 2007-01-14, 19:28   Link #548
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Originally Posted by the.Merines View Post
I don't think Rozen planned on completing Suigintou. Ever. He left her unfinished for a reason.

However, I do think he noticed and began to watch her when she began moving on her own. Remember: Rozen wants Alice more than anything. If he leaves a doll half-finished, yet she still becomes aware and sentient without extended prodding from him, wouldn't that make her worthy of at least getting a chance? I'd bet that Rozen didn't "plan" on Suigintou waking up on her own, but once he noticed that she had, he simply waited for a chance to finally reward her by giving her a Rosa Mystica.

So yes, the Rosa Mystica makes a true Rozen Maiden, but a living doll made by Rozen for the purpose of becoming Alice is also a Rozen Maiden in a limited sense. Rozen knew he had seven pieces of Rosa Mystica which had to be combined to create Alice. Maybe he planned on making another doll, but noticed the fact that Suigintou had awakened before he started? To go really far out on a limb, maybe he was interrupted during his creation of Kirakishou by Suigintou, and he lost Kirakishou's design when it was stolen by Enju.

I dunno. It's fun to speculate.
and the problem here still remains...how does shinku and the others know that there are 7 RM dolls at the beginning of the alice game? i thought that all the dolls where created before the games started so naturally rozen wouldnt have been remaking another doll ~ then this would make kanaria officially the first O.o (unless im horribly wrong)

and also about kira...how the hell does he make a doll with no physical body? could it be that she was destroyed in the finnishing process and ended up being stuck/imprisioned in her own N field?
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Old 2007-01-14, 19:34   Link #549
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Make this whole N-field thing is actually the mind of Rozen, where all designs he created do battle, and the wabbit is actually a manifestation for the referee.
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Old 2007-01-14, 19:41   Link #550
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Well, obviously we don't know a whole lot about Kirakishou. With the apparent problems between Peach-Pit and Birz Monthly, we might not know for a long time about her past.

About the number of dolls, Rozen always had no more and no less than 7 pieces of the true Rosa Mystica. He has to have seven dolls, whether they are all done or not. The Alice Game is confusing... In season 1 it seems like whenever two Rozen Maiden fight, it's an Alice Game. In ~traumend~ they make it a point to say that all seven dolls must be awake for the Alice Game to truly take place. The ones instigating these one-on-one Alice Games were Souseiseki and, later, Suigintou. Who knows if these would be considered wins/losses by Rozen if a doll had been defeated.

I don't know about Suigintou and Rozen. I simply refuse to believe that he organized and planned out the entire beginning of Suigintou's life. That's too extravagant of an idea for me to comprehend. It's been shown that Rozen likes to take a "hands off" approach to the dolls' lives; he sits back and watches how things play out. If he had the ability to manipulate Suigintou so much, why didn't he manipulate the other dolls to just fight as soon as they were all created?
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Old 2007-01-15, 04:12   Link #551
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err.. each to his or her own preferences i think..

anyway, how is Rozen still alive in the 20th century.. is he ageless or something?
Meant to put "isn't loli"!!
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Old 2007-01-15, 14:17   Link #552
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Well managed to read through the 28 pages of discussion on this issue. Oddly enough I got introduced to this series from downloading the first part of the OVA. Watched a bit was completely lost so began hunting down the series. 10 or so hours later I was caught up and could watch the this.

What this did for me was not as much damage my good opinion on Shinku as to creating a much better view of Suigintou. I honestly didn't understand from the show what had happened to make her such a striking contrast to a good many of the dolls we knew. Really this showed how hard and painful her existance had been. Being left behind and watching others get all that care and attention must've been difficult to handle. How she could come to life on her own from sheer will and start looking for her father is an incredible feat.

It was sad how beliefs, misunderstandings, and feelings of betrayal led to a friendship that was looking really promising to going south in a hurry. Shinku I know wanted to help Suigintou. What Shinku believed was best for Suigintou and what Suigintou actually wanted herself were greatly different. This was a major cause of their conflict. Suigintou had made it clear from the very beginning that she wanted to find her father. Even if she wasn't complete and didn't have a RM S hinku should have picked up on this. There was just no way she would be content with being Shinku's mediums' doll and all would be well.

Clearly she would have a tough time dealing with Suigintou actually being a Rozen Maiden. We could see with her battle in the first part how confident (boarding on arrogant) she was about herself. Contrasting Suigintou she couldn't believe that girl was anywhere near her position. Even though she made these errors I can at least know she wasn't trying to be cruel.

Getting cut in half by Souseiseki was a serious blow in more ways than one. Souseiseki really should learn some method of restraint, instead of acting first and dealing with minor specifics later. Rozen completely has me stumped in various ways. He just leaves Suigintou incomplete and leaves. But decides to leave some clothing nearby? Doesn't give her a RM right away but waits until she has been cut down and is falling into despair? Either he has things planned out really far ahead or he thought it'd be interesting to let Suigintou do what she would.

After this and finally getting a RM of her own Gin was able to search for acceptance. There was obviously still a shot for a reconciliation though it probably would've ended with a battle. Just not some enraged fight full of hatred. Shinku just dropped the ball on this one. I understand with her personality and confidence the idea that Suigintou was a real Rozen Maiden with a RM like the rest was hard to deal with. But her responses just kept taking small shots at Suigintou basically saying there was no way she could be one of them. Being incomplete she couldn't be in the same league/group/branch they were. This pretty much got Suigintou to feel a powerful sense of betrayal and with her memories of Shinku being favourited by their 'father' she just snapped. Shinku outside of their father was the most important person to her and feeling betrayed by that person was something she couldn't bear.

Going after the broach was going a bit far but I can see why she would do that. Attacking that memory and almost challenging that she was just as qualified as Shinku to be part of the Rozen Maidens and to be Alice. Sadly we can understand why Shinku responded in such a fashion to get revenge there. Not only had her idea and beliefs of what a Rozen Maiden should be had been hit. Also her precious memories and item that her father had given her was gone. So she took the lowest blow she could and went with the J word. Maybe if that dumb rabit had interfered earlier she could've calmed down and dealt with it before lashing out.

Also that rabit is a pain. It's perfectly fine to let them hurt and emotionally attack the other. But when they are getting a chance to release those emotions he gets into it. Sending them both off so they could stir and only imagine their hatred. Really just letting it grow stronger until the next time they would end up meeting the other.

I know much of this has already been discussed, retorted, threatened, back and forth but I felt it was important to let my viewpoint come out there. Just makes one more excited and looking forward to Season 3. I never would have imagined just how deep some of these characters really are.
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Old 2007-01-15, 15:30   Link #553
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Originally Posted by the.Merines View Post
I don't know about Suigintou and Rozen. I simply refuse to believe that he organized and planned out the entire beginning of Suigintou's life. That's too extravagant of an idea for me to comprehend. It's been shown that Rozen likes to take a "hands off" approach to the dolls' lives; he sits back and watches how things play out. If he had the ability to manipulate Suigintou so much, why didn't he manipulate the other dolls to just fight as soon as they were all created?
Something I dedicated an essay worth text to point out on page 24

Anyhow, since the discussion has moved on to what I had actually first posted; a couple theories and speculations on the Träumend thread concerning the nature of the Rosa Mysticae and Rozen's relation to the Alice game. A couple points however are outdated, since it was kindly noted later that Barasuishou didn't actually seem to have a Rosa Mystica to begin with. And Kirakishou's still a mystery when it comes to the anime. Darned wish I could get the manga.

What of the fact that the dolls know who they are and which # they are, I'd think it's heavily related to the belief that even inanimate objects can have a spirit or even soul. According to this belief items that are held dear by their owner can "absorb" these feelings and eventually come to possess something of a personality. Something like that living doll episode in Love Hina or like the vengeful dolls in one episode of Amaenaideyo. The relation here is ofcourse none other than the belief that dolls are most easily affected, since they are usually very dear to their owners! Rozen is seen talking to the maidens, so even if they're not yet animated, they're likely to pick up the feelings and words conveyed to them.

I don't think this belief is limited to Japanese mythology only, is it?

There ought to be a thread solely for this kind of debate concerning theories and speculations, since having pretty much the same discussion split on both Träumend and Ouvertüre threads is a bit annoying.
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Old 2007-01-16, 03:09   Link #554
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Wouldnt it be nice if an eighth doll came out at the third season's ending and say to sugintou "Those clothes you are wearing. Otou-san made them for me, not you. You stole them and I will now take it back." Then she unleashes her weapon at a stunned sugintou.
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Old 2007-01-16, 04:11   Link #555
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Something like Suigintou standing before a mirror when suddenly the mirror image comes to life and steps out grabbing Gin by her collar, calmly announcing "I am the first Rozen Maiden, you are an incomplete fake - Give me your Roza Mystica or become junk once again" perhaps? Laplace did mention something about new toys but that may be a little too far fetched

Maybe instead we'll have a thousand ninja dolls and boss characters coming out of every N-Field entrance and Shinku's mission is to kill the boss characters and survive the onslaught and her sister's plotting to steal the scroll all the while finding Rozen and bringing the Alice Scroll to him... Oh right, we don't need that, there's Basilisk already.

How about a character called Puppet Master has come to spread chaos and confusion over the city by controlling puppets and no one seems to be able to find the real suspect. Now it's left to Section Nine - the anti terrorism doll squad lead by Major Shinku and master detective Kunkun to find the real culprit before no one is safe from the Puppet Master. I'll call this the Ghost in the N-Field! No good? Pfffft...

How about... Galaxy Alice? Sounds familiar? Oh right, Galaxy Angel
Ummm... Alice no naku koro ni - When Alice cries? Hina with a meat cleaver! Still no good? Battle Angel Alice? Fate - Stay Alice? Ginbuster? Gunslinger Alice? .Hack//Alice, who will find out the truth behind the wierd Alice phenomenon in the N-Field game? She is my Alice, featuring Jun as the spoiled rich brat with a maid costume fetish? Alice 100% Ichigo Pantsu edition? Alice no Sora - UFO no Natsu? Kareshi Alice no Jijou - His and Alice's circumstances? Alice ga Nozomu Eien? Mahou Sensei Shinku? N-Field Ibun Ayakashi Ayashi - Strange Stories from the N-Field era? Witch Hunter Shinku - She's a witch!? N-Field Rumble, Shakugan no Shinku, Neon Genesis Alice, Love Alice, Fullmetal Alice, Alice Proxy, Code Geass, Alice of the Rebellion, TriGin, Uchuu no Shinku???

Alright then, if my ideas aren't good enough, then I guess I have no choice but to give up... I GIVE UP! What do you mean I just switched names with existing titles, they're my very own ideas!?

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Old 2007-01-16, 12:31   Link #556
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Wouldnt it be nice if an eighth doll came out at the third season's ending and say to sugintou "Those clothes you are wearing. Otou-san made them for me, not you. You stole them and I will now take it back." Then she unleashes her weapon at a stunned sugintou.
oh the horror how much more torment can poor gin sama stand?

but saying that i wouldnt mind to see something like that happen to ermm shinku (j/k)
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Old 2007-01-16, 21:41   Link #557
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Rozen is a jerk who never competely explaines his rules in this Alice game crap. 'nuf said....
Also either he's a loli to create a doll that's too obsessed to him or gin sama has this ele-com or something...
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Old 2007-01-16, 23:01   Link #558
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and the problem here still remains...how does shinku and the others know that there are 7 RM dolls at the beginning of the alice game? i thought that all the dolls where created before the games started so naturally rozen wouldnt have been remaking another doll ~ then this would make kanaria officially the first O.o (unless im horribly wrong)

and also about kira...how the hell does he make a doll with no physical body? could it be that she was destroyed in the finnishing process and ended up being stuck/imprisioned in her own N field?

I don't also understand how they knew it, I agree that Laplace indeed was the one who told them. But something that doesn't help a lot to the question is that every time that the dolls say a little clue, the humans just and then shut their mouths. How the hell is it that they don't even ask a little question??? I mean, if I were in their place, I would hostigate my doll with a whole bunch of questions until she gets tired and answer me just to shut me up

And, for Kira, I believe that she had the inverse process that Gin had. If she was able to move without a Rosa Mystica -in other words, created a temporal substitute for it-, Kira's Rosa Mystica managed to create a body from itself, until she finds her true one.
Or: Papa locked her because she's a psyco, he wasn't capable of controlling her and is afraid that she can kill all her sisters (or make something too bad to Gin -think bad and you'll win ).
I'd rather go for #1 option.

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Something like Suigintou standing before a mirror when suddenly the mirror image comes to life and steps out grabbing Gin by her collar, calmly announcing "I am the first Rozen Maiden, you are an incomplete fake - Give me your Roza Mystica or become junk once again" perhaps? Laplace did mention something about new toys but that may be a little too far fetched
WHAAAAAAATTTTTTTT???????????????
When the hell did that happened??
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Old 2007-01-17, 03:59   Link #559
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_duangelique:
Last episode of Träumend, quote from translation of what Laplace says after Bara and Enju disappear (at around 16:15): "For now, this brings an end to my time of fun and games... Let us drift about once again... until new toys are found." both Laplace and Jun clearly says omocha = toy.

Kirakishou, might have been created or imprisoned in the N-Fields or like _duangelique said, created a temporal substitute for herself based on Rozen's original vision until she could find a physical body. Or someone's simply mixing up the manga, in which Kira uses Hina's body to create a physical manifestation when we don't know at all if in the anime she's been physically complete since the beginning. She's seen for a couple seconds with Laplace and already there's a wildfire of speculations

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I mean, if I were in their place, I would hostigate my doll with a whole bunch of questions until she gets tired and answer me just to shut me up
Jun for one is often pretty pissed off at the "devil doll" and asking anything more would most probably get him slapped for being persistent and a nuisance, it's likely enough to keep him from not wanting to do so unless told something voluntarily. Wouldn't it be too much of a spoiler anyhow?

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Rozen is a jerk who never competely explaines his rules in this Alice game crap. 'nuf said....
Also either he's a loli to create a doll that's too obsessed to him or gin sama has this ele-com or something...
My parents are jerks, they never explained the rules of this crap of a game called life and even if they did I have them to blame for forgetting what they've told me back when I was barely aware of my own existence! They're also to be blamed for the fact that at one time I thought of my parents as the equivalent of gods and they're the most important thing in my life?!? And the dolls sure seem to know the rules well enough, so they must have been told even if the viewers never find out or even find contradictions like the differences between S1 and S2.

Maybe Rozen didn't expect to have his dolls to become so darned obsessed with him to begin with, we STILL don't even know if he was the one to tell his dolls that they're supposed to unconditionally follow any means to becoming Alice "for him" since we don't even know what the Alice is besides a vague description for being the perfect girl? Maybe this "Alice" is an angel-like being with the abilities of all the dolls combined to be able to bring happiness to all of the world instead of just Rozen? Maybe that's why Laplace and Enju seems to be after it, since perhaps the Alice can, like so many things, be used for not only altruistic purposes but purely selfish ones as well?

I did mention about that belief that according to which dolls can come to possess a soul and personality based on the feelings of their owners. Shinku's vanity could for one be explained by how she was pampered and given more attention than to the other dolls. Perhaps they're just answering to the affection given by Father innately.

Guilty until proven innocent isn't exactly my idea of a just world, something like this wouldn't even hold in a court of law to judge any of the characters for anything much being accused here. Court adjourned due lack of evidence. Someone had written somewhere on these threads that they'd sure like to strangle Rozen for all he's done, all what?

The conversation has mostly been going in circles anyhow before, when everyone just states their opinions without pointing out what they're based on and apparently asking for clarification for something that can be considered unfounded for is starting an argument. Soooooooooo.... how about considering the fact that whoever wrote the story for RM is human and could possibly have created a couple plot holes by mistake that they're probably having a hard time fixing for the third season to satisfy the fan-base? Real life hardly follows a plot either. Sit back, relax and enjoy the show ^___^

Just so as to make a real life example of jumping into subjective conclusions based on limited objective evidence and to put things in a perspective.

Imagine this situation as vividly as possible:
You're walking around town when suddenly you hear a scream, you look around and see a towering man, at least 2 meters tall and strong as an ox holding a teenage girl high up in the air. The girl's kicking and punching....
(I bet you would run in to "rescue" the girl, right? And now on to the climax...)
Spoiler for Click:


I can't say that any theory I've come up with would have to be the correct one, since quite basically I think it's possible that Rozen could be a loli obsessed with creating the perfect girl just because he was dumped by a real girl or something like that. It's all up to who ever is writing the story and just how twisted an imagination they have. Seems some people are starting to forget that this indeed is but fantasy and that's what I do take seriously even if it's not really any of my problem, unless someone comes and slaps me in the face for something I've written since I'll slap back.

Quote:
Make this whole N-field thing is actually the mind of Rozen, where all designs he created do battle, and the wabbit is actually a manifestation for the referee.
N-Fields have already been stated to be manifestations of the dreamworld of an individual, every doll is said to have their own, just like people have them. Rozen would have to be god or the world only as young as he is if it were to be all in his mind. Sui and Sou are said to be the only ones to have the ability to open an entrance to people's dreamworlds, while all the dolls can enter each others' N-Fields. It is said that when a Rozen Maiden loses her Rosa Mystica they'll fall asleep - locked into and eventually vanishing with their own N-Field after falling into a void, does this refer to the doll or the RM is a bit contradicting. If it were to be in Rozen's mind, wouldn't he be able to keep the dream of a single doll alive in his mind and recreate them? Yes he does rebuild all the dolls but those who've lost their apparent origin of their personal N-Field - the Rosa Mystica (Hina's and Sou's RM were obviously taken by Laplace). Even this he was able to do only after the dolls had fallen into the void - in other words, been already "killed" or after Laplace had left. End of Träumend is also the first and only time we see Rozen in any N-Field other than the void in Ouvertüre, if his workshop from the flashbacks was in the real world. I'll call the watery N-Field Gin falls into after being "defeated" by Sou as Void for the lack of better words.

Did anyone notice that Suigintou seems to have had her macabre dream world filled with ruins, dark stormy sky and broken dolls like the ones in Rozen's workshop in first ep. even before the chain of events at the end of ep.2? Does this mean she was destined to become the tragic character? Would have been a powerful sign to have an all around nice dream world shatter while Suigintou forms her wings... I'll get back to this later.
Kanaria - unknown.
Souseiseki - large empty cathedral - tranquility, devotion and emptiness perhaps uncertainty, what can something so small do in such a big world?
Suiseiseki - according to some source, a lovely garden - peace loving, down to earth, dreamer, control freak
Shinku - a noble's manor - quite enough of a description.
Hinaichigo - happy happy joy joy toy world - naive, fun-loving all that kind of cute stuff.
Kirakishou - unknown

Shinku said that Rozen didn't finish Suigintou because her plans were lost, not to try and figure out how she knew of this or whether or not she was just assuming something like this based on personal grudge against Suigintou at the time thinking Rozen must have thought of Gin as an unfit doll as well. But point being that there must have been plans made in advance for all the seven Rosa Mysticae and therefore the dolls could be given a name a "serial number" and all in advance. Very few artists start working on something without first having at least a sketch to work with. Porcelain doll making for one seems to be a great deal of work, mess up the proportions and you'll have parts that don't fit after being fired in the kiln and all. Quite basically, not finishing Suigintou in the end would contradict with the original purpose, feelings and ideals behind doll making.

Ever thought of the connection between the clothing styles and color associations with the dolls' personalities in their original designs? Well here's what I believe. The Rosa Mysticae are certain aspects and traits of the stereotypical ideal woman, there's been enough discussion about these associations so I won't delve into them. So, based on how Suigintou's N-Field and clothing are tragically themed ever since the beginning and N-Field after she got her Rosa Mystica, we can assume that her chosen traits were mostly negative in nature to begin with and associated to the RM, since she's quite different in nature before receiving it. We don't see her N-Field before her being given her RM, just her aimlessly drifting between the N-Fields and eventually reaching out through different exits calling out to whomever is there, like the mirror in Sarah's room or a door in the passageway between N-Fields. While some of the traits are mixed between the dolls, it is most likely just to keep a certain balance, so as to have them function properly as a person. The combination and the outcome of the "evolution" through their choices throughout their existence might be the actual goal for creating perfection, not just having them mindlessly reducing each other to junk in order to see Father, whom I could very much imagine crying at the outcome of having created a selfish monster instead of an all around perfect Alice. Laplace and Enju on the other hand don't seem to mind creating this kind of an Alice, both being manipulative and selfish in nature. Perhaps that's exactly why the "Alice game" is so obviously senseless so as to have the dolls question the meaning of it all, the pros of seeing Father versus having your sisters wiped out and having to carry the burden of it.

A child brought up with all the answers given to them grow up to be the equivalent of a book. No matter how many pages there may be, they'd still be nothing but a book repeating things they've learned. Make a child think for themselves and for others and you'll have creative and original thinkers, artists of all kinds, story writers, poets, painters... That I believe is the reason behind having the dolls live and see the consequences with their very own eyes. I couldn't even remotely consider perfect a selfish brat willing to sacrifice her sisters in order to reach the goal. Neither could I call perfect a person willing to unquestioningly follow orders from their object of admiration.


Spoiler for Rant about the previous argument...:

Last edited by Kageitenshi; 2007-01-21 at 06:53. Reason: Fixed for easier reading
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Old 2007-01-18, 14:45   Link #560
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