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Old 2007-01-31, 14:01   Link #221
yinstro
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i dont know if hidan is weak, sure he lost to one dude, but lets keep in mind some see shikamaru as a potenial hokage candidate, also shika had to lose pieces to nderstand hidans weaknesses.

I think the biggest problem with hidan is over confidence he has shown great taijutsu and an extremely effective and deadly skill that could, if used properly defeat almost any opponent. But since he cant die (seemingly) he takes many risks. he simply figures he cant die so whatever happens doesnt matter, he shows no fear of being just a head...

As far as thier team, i think they are together for 2 reasons,
1 they both have a sort of immortality
2 from kazuku's words, he would kill his partner, hidan cant die, simple solution
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:08   Link #222
Rurik
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Originally Posted by yinstro View Post
i dont know if hidan is weak, sure he lost to one dude, but lets keep in mind some see shikamaru as a potenial hokage candidate, also shika had to lose pieces to nderstand hidans weaknesses.

I think the biggest problem with hidan is over confidence he has shown great taijutsu and an extremely effective and deadly skill that could, if used properly defeat almost any opponent. But since he cant die (seemingly) he takes many risks. he simply figures he cant die so whatever happens doesnt matter, he shows no fear of being just a head...

As far as thier team, i think they are together for 2 reasons,
1 they both have a sort of immortality
2 from kazuku's words, he would kill his partner, hidan cant die, simple solution
I agree with you, I think the confidence Hidan has on himself and his god is what makes him such a dumb person to begin with, And I mean c'mon, do opponent of Hidan usually get a second chance to fight him? we are talking about somene that once he draws blood from you, you are dead.

So, it basically impossible for someone to actually have the chance to see HIdan abilities and live to tell it.
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:21   Link #223
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Originally Posted by yinstro View Post
i dont know if hidan is weak, sure he lost to one dude, but lets keep in mind some see shikamaru as a potenial hokage candidate, also shika had to lose pieces to nderstand hidans weaknesses.

Shiki is smart but he has a way to go before you can actually count him as Hokage candidate. He is still a one trick pony with his shadow bind. Put him against someone like Kakuzu, he is a dead man. Only against someone as dumb as Hiden would his traps work.
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:31   Link #224
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Shiki is smart but he has a way to go before you can actually count him as Hokage candidate. He is still a one trick pony with his shadow bind. Put him against someone like Kakuzu, he is a dead man. Only against someone as dumb as Hiden would his traps work.
Ermm no, as shown his trap works even against people more intelligent than just Hidan, How do you think was the reason ASsuma could never beat Shika in Shogi.

Yes, most probaly Shika can't defeat Kakuuzu on his own, however, Kakuuzu himself has fallen into shikamaru traps, as also people as temary, who was said to be a good analyst herself.
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:45   Link #225
-HyugaNeji-
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Man don't always compare veteran, adult Ninjas who were areound for a VERY long time, with 14-16 year old brats. Now imagine, how strong guys like shikamaru, Naruto or Neji will be in their 20's or 30's.. That would be more realistic
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:46   Link #226
chuckcsf
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Ermm no, as shown his trap works even against people more intelligent than just Hidan, How do you think was the reason ASsuma could never beat Shika in Shogi.

Yes, most probaly Shika can't defeat Kakuuzu on his own, however, Kakuuzu himself has fallen into shikamaru traps, as also people as temary, who was said to be a good analyst herself.
Well temari did not fall into Shika's trap because, it wasn't a trap. More like she was manipulated which is even worse. I do agree though that Shika needs a lot more work before he can become a Hokage. Maybe the Chief war strategist but it takes more than intelligence to understand some things like "women".
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:47   Link #227
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Shiki is smart but he has a way to go before you can actually count him as Hokage candidate. He is still a one trick pony with his shadow bind. Put him against someone like Kakuzu, he is a dead man. Only against someone as dumb as Hiden would his traps work.
Shika's definitely not Kage lvl, but even so, matching an Akatsuki member is a tall order for anyone. Even Kages have been defeated by members(or former members) of Akatsuki. Also, I don't understand why so many people keep calling Shikamaru a one trick pony. He only uses Shadow justu but he has 4 or 5 different Shadow jutsus. It's like saying Kankoru is a one trick pony because he only uses Puppet techniques or Yamato is a one trick pony because he only uses mokuton. Nearly everyone in the series uses at most two or three different jutsu regularly.
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Old 2007-01-31, 14:55   Link #228
Rurik
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Well temari did not fall into Shika's trap because, it wasn't a trap. More like she was manipulated which is even worse.
Well, when I refer to trap, I was referring more about practically everything related to the tactic of somehow making your opponent ending up where the plan was tough to.
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Old 2007-01-31, 15:51   Link #229
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Shika's definitely not Kage lvl, but even so, matching an Akatsuki member is a tall order for anyone. Even Kages have been defeated by members(or former members) of Akatsuki. Also, I don't understand why so many people keep calling Shikamaru a one trick pony. He only uses Shadow justu but he has 4 or 5 different Shadow jutsus. It's like saying Kankoru is a one trick pony because he only uses Puppet techniques or Yamato is a one trick pony because he only uses mokuton. Nearly everyone in the series uses at most two or three different jutsu regularly.

We don't know if Yamato only uses Mokuton, we havn't really seen him let loose yet.

As Kankoru, his puppets are very verstile. As sasori is show he can command an army of puppets which can do offense/defense and even scouting. The shadow bind is more of a support technique. Its defensive and offensive capabilites are very limited without support. Kankuro's puppets capability is as vary as the number and type of puppet he has.

Hiden's biggest advantage is suprise. Once someone figure how he did the curse stuff with the blood and the circle he is very easy to deal with.
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Old 2007-01-31, 15:58   Link #230
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
The shadow bind is more of a support technique. Its defensive and offensive capabilites are very limited without support.
Could you elaborate a little bit about what do oyu mean when you say support, and how does the offensive types of Shadow Jutsu that Shika has shown are affected by the absence of this support.
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:08   Link #231
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Argh! Can't wait for next chapter! I hope and pray to Jebus that the spoiler we've seen is not true. I'm dyin' over here... ;(
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:15   Link #232
Supaiku_of_Sand
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I have to agree if kishi does that im gunna be ROYALY PISSSed!!!
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:20   Link #233
chuckcsf
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Could you elaborate a little bit about what do oyu mean when you say support, and how does the offensive types of Shadow Jutsu that Shika has shown are affected by the absence of this support.
I think what she meant was that Shika's Jutsu is a binding jutsu and not really an offensive nor defensive jutsu. More for traps and hunting down enemies and also for assasination or a sneak attack.

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Argh! Can't wait for next chapter! I hope and pray to Jebus that the spoiler we've seen is not true. I'm dyin' over here... ;(
Me too man! They should move it back to wednesdays.
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:22   Link #234
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Could you elaborate a little bit about what do oyu mean when you say support, and how does the offensive types of Shadow Jutsu that Shika has shown are affected by the absence of this support.


1. After immoblizing the target with the shadow. What can Shiki do with the target? nothing. He needs other peopel around to deal with the target once he binds them.

2. The shadow bind is useless in countering objects and energy throw at him. Now that i think about it. It will absolutely useless against a puppet user who is hiding inside his puppet.

3. It is also useless against mid/long range attackers. since his shadows won't be able to reach those attackers but his attacker could attack him.

For Shiki's shadow bind to be successful he needs terrain that is favorable to him. Forest area's with lot of trees where he can use thier shadows or a area where he setup traps ahead of time. On flat or netural ground where he didn't get a chance to set things up before hand. He would be in serious trouble against someone who specalize in mid/long range attacks or a puppet user. Also since Shiki doesn't have a lot of Chakara his opponent can just wait him out even if he is caught in his shadow bind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucksf
I think what she meant was that Shika's Jutsu is a binding jutsu and not really an offensive nor defensive jutsu. More for traps and hunting down enemies and also for assasination or a sneak attack.
That is pretty much what i meant. The shadow bind is good at sneak attacks and trapping your opponent but does need a 2nd person to finish the opponent once you trap them.
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:22   Link #235
0TaKu0
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Ahhhh man, I am sooo late on this discussion. Real life, and World of Warcraft sure takes up allot of time *sigh* (Windrunner Server, name is Silegna).

Any way, lets get down to business! It's official folks, Shikamaru is the bad ass, of Naruto. His attitude seems more and more like Kakashi's now when Kakashi gets "Serious" I had flashbacks of the Zabuza Arc, every time Kakashi talked down to Zabuza.

As for Hidan, as I read most of you guys think that he is still alive. Honestly I'm not so sure I think he is dead mainly because of this. I remember when the whole "How to kill Hidan?" discussion started. I stated that either crush his head, or slice it in half, or just cut him to pieces and bury him. Now, the reason I feel Hidan is dead is because of how it ended Kishimoto made sure in not 1 but 4 frames that the rock was heading for his face, his body is useless without his head, and at the last frame its a "Slam" I think that indicates his head was crushed under the rock hence he is dead.

Naruto... Oh man what can I say, I'm happy I loved how things turned out this is a huge, and I mean huge turn around for Naruto. Kishimoto has never once, used a frame showing Naruto's "Thoughts" in terms of battle strategy this is the first time this was done. I feel that Kishimoto is trying to change around "Naruto's stupidity" and finally giving him his own frames where he can figure things out on his own. Which is great if you ask me, because its about time I mean the kid is about 15 with who knows how many years of training experience (the Kage Bunshin training).

So we finally know how Kakashi's hand was hurt, it is as most of us had suspected, as cliché as it was where two people pass through each other then one person falls I loved how Kakashi looked back at Naruto and saw the fourth, at least we know the Manga agrees! (even more)

As for Naruto's Jutsu, that’s awesome he created a new jutsu using the wind chakra, for those of you who are thinking that is "the ultimate jutsu" or that is similar to his "ultimate jutsu", dead wrong XD. I feel that’s just a variation, a uncompleted form that is not stable hence the blades come out like that. Most likely the complete form is more compact and compressed and looks totally different and, will be at 100% power and not 50%. We will have to wait and see, all in all great chapter.

Edit:

Ehh, I just went and checked out all the spoilers. Bah, there is too damn many for me to care, and consider. So I'm not taking in to consideration of any of them untill one of them is confirmed by H. However, the thought of Naruto's Wind Shuriken spinning in his palm to deflect fire, or act is a shield is not totally unbelievable. That’s common sense, hell when he held it up toward the sky over his head, I thought Krillen or Helicopter.
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:36   Link #236
chuckcsf
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Ahhhh man, I am sooo late on this discussion. Real life, and World of Warcraft sure takes up allot of time *sigh* (Windrunner Server, name is Silegna)

...
Ehh, I just went and checked out all the spoilers. Bah, there is too damn many for me to care, and consider. So I'm not taking in to consideration of any of them untill one of them is confirmed by H. However, the thought of Naruto's Wind Shuriken spinning in his palm to deflect fire, or act is a shield is not totally unbelievable. That’s common sense, hell when he held it up toward the sky over his head, I thought Krillen or Helicopter.
Well in the Chuunin Exam arc when Sauske was fighting Temari, Temari used her wind to deflect Sauske's fire. I've only seen the anime on this part though, not sure what happend in the manga.

I wonder though if they're going give Shika more screen time from now on or if they're going to give the others a chance to shine like him.

So no wonder you've been gone are you at lvl 70 now?
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:42   Link #237
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
1. After immoblizing the target with the shadow. What can Shiki do with the target? nothing. He needs other peopel around to deal with the target once he binds them.
Shika can use the Shadows neck bind to strangulate his target after been caught.

Quote:
2. The shadow bind is useless in countering objects and energy throw at him. Now that i think about it. It will absolutely useless against a puppet user who is hiding inside his puppet.
This one is tricky, for a puppet it should happen the same as it happened with Kakuuzu, however if the Attack of the target requires any Physical movement (which is basically the 90% of all Jutsus) the attack wont happen.

But then again every Ninja, no matter whatis his specializatiopn, should have a weaknees in his Jutsu, for example, Sharingan becomes useless whit a heavy fog.

Quote:
3. It is also useless against mid/long range attackers. since his shadows won't be able to reach those attackers but his attacker could attack him.

For Shiki's shadow bind to be successful he needs terrain that is favorable to him. Forest area's with lot of trees where he can use thier shadows or a area where he setup traps ahead of time. On flat or netural ground where he didn't get a chance to set things up before hand. He would be in serious trouble against someone who specalize in mid/long range attacks or a puppet user. Also since Shiki doesn't have a lot of Chakara his opponent can just wait him out even if he is caught in his shadow bind.
And this is where Shika Mind compensate what you observe, We cant say for sure how Shika could fair depending on the terrain. However, That why he has his mind there, to work for a way to Get his target, and so far, Shika success rate of dong that is at 100%.

And I think you are forgetting about one specific Jutsu from Shikamaru, and is the One that creates the countless spikes, The Kage Nui.

The first time he used it was against Sai Ink animals which without binding them he impaled a couple of them. And it has a good range.

He also used it against Hidan, but could not impaled him with success given Hidan successfully dodge them.

Chuckcfs,Tha fight between Sasuke and Temary was Anime filler and Xellos is a He, not a She….
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:49   Link #238
chuckcsf
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Chuckcfs,Tha fight between Sasuke and Temary was Anime filler and Xellos is a He, not a She….
heh, I see a lot of girly girls (his avatar and signature) so I "jumped in to conclusion" but anyways, even though that was an anime filler, it could still be valid right? That wind, even though wind < fire, but wind can still deflect fire? I am still kinda confused on the elemental subject.
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Old 2007-01-31, 16:52   Link #239
Rurik
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hmmm, another tricky one, If the wind Jutsu is at the same strength as the Fire Jutsu, it is going to make the Fire stronger, However, I think that if the Fire is a lot weaker, then the Wind should deflect or even turn out the fire.
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Old 2007-01-31, 17:10   Link #240
DeDe
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
1. After immoblizing the target with the shadow. What can Shiki do with the target? nothing. He needs other peopel around to deal with the target once he binds them.

2. The shadow bind is useless in countering objects and energy throw at him. Now that i think about it. It will absolutely useless against a puppet user who is hiding inside his puppet.

3. It is also useless against mid/long range attackers. since his shadows won't be able to reach those attackers but his attacker could attack him.

For Shiki's shadow bind to be successful he needs terrain that is favorable to him. Forest area's with lot of trees where he can use thier shadows or a area where he setup traps ahead of time. On flat or netural ground where he didn't get a chance to set things up before hand. He would be in serious trouble against someone who specalize in mid/long range attacks or a puppet user. Also since Shiki doesn't have a lot of Chakara his opponent can just wait him out even if he is caught in his shadow bind.



That is pretty much what i meant. The shadow bind is good at sneak attacks and trapping your opponent but does need a 2nd person to finish the opponent once you trap them.
You need to learn a lot about Shika's techniques. I'll take them one-by-one.

Quote:
1. After immoblizing the target with the shadow. What can Shiki do with the target? nothing. He needs other peopel around to deal with the target once he binds them.
Did you miss the Sound/Sand invasion arc? Shika binded 8 chuunin. He then used 8 shuriken to try to kill them. The 9th member, a jounin hiding in the trees, blocked the attack. Shika can use any projectile attack to kill someone bound in his shadow. There is no way for them to defend themselves.

I can't believe you also forgot the shadow neck bind. That also makes your point moot. Bind someone then use the shadow hand to choke them.

Of course you also forgot about the kage nui. Shika doesn't even need to get the shadow bind on you to attack with the shadow needles. This gives him a mid range offensive jutsu.

Now he has the chakra blades. Did you see the kagemane shuriken no jutsu? He can bind someone from a distance and be free to follow up with an attack. That technique is almost broken.

Quote:
2. The shadow bind is useless in countering objects and energy throw at him. Now that i think about it. It will absolutely useless against a puppet user who is hiding inside his puppet.
Anything that makes a shadow he can bind. Objects make shadows.

Quote:
3. It is also useless against mid/long range attackers. since his shadows won't be able to reach those attackers but his attacker could attack him.
His shadow can reach a mid range attacker easily. Did you think the kagemane is a close range jutsu or something? He can also improve the range in a number of ways.

Now this is where being a super genius with an over 200 IQ comes in handy. Shika has shown the ability to get the shadow bind on every opponent he has faced. Including a couple of smart long distance fighters in Temari and Tayuya. And a guy who bragged about his awesome battle experience in Kakuzu.

Quote:
Shiki doesn't have a lot of Chakara his opponent can just wait him out even if he is caught in his shadow bind.
His chakra has certainly improved otherwise there is no way to explain this display against Hidan and Kakuzu. And I already told you how he can kill when you are caught in the shadow. It wouldn’t be very wise of someone to just wait it out.

The kagemane can bind multiple opponents. You can take direct control of them and use them as an attacking puppet like was shown with Hidan.

The kage kubi shibari can hold specific areas of an opponent and strengthen the bound. Or just kill the opponent outright. Shika was able to break his own finger with it when he was 13. I imagine it’s a lot stronger now.

The kage nui is an offensive jutsu that acts like having a bunch of shadow tentacles. Shika demonstrated this by flinging a chakra blade with them. He also used them to quickly wrap those tags around Hidan. They become almost like a living extension of the user.

So you can see how useful his techniques are, even in a solo setting. Calling Shika a one trick pony is like calling Gaara a one trick pony because all he uses is sand.
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