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Old 2007-01-31, 17:56   Link #41
Rahan
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Um, Rukia deffently thought Ichigo reminded him of Kaien. she even started to have flash backs to him when Ichigo was fighting GF. And the 3rd seats never realy interacted with Ichigo.
Yeah, but that was for their attitude (with the battle for honor thingie), not for their look.
Ukitake just froze after watching Ichigo's face.
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Old 2007-01-31, 18:22   Link #42
hdx514
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I don't think this fits into the timeframe.
IIRC Kaien told Rukia and Renji, that he came from Rukongai, therefore at the time he became Shinigami, his family should have already fallen for quite some time. And IIRC he was the older brother to Kuukaku, and not a younger one.
you got it the wrong way around. the "demotion" of the shiba nobles and moving to rukongai were postmortem. kaien's death was basically what started all that.

kaien's siblings kukaku and ganju, ashamed by their big brother's death at the hands of a no name hollow, unable to come to terms with the reality that is his brother's weakness, distanced themselves from others and used shinigami especially rukia as psycological scapegoats to make themsleves feel better.
pre-houguyoku failed experimental regular monstrous hollow is about as weak as it gets as far as hybrids go. in reality kaien dishonored himself and his clan when he lost to this crap, failing to avenge his wife. rukia didn't just do the right thing, she did the possessed kaien a favor, ending his misery. kukaku should have thanked her, but that's too humiliating for her big ego, so she chose to live in denial.

it's like, one's policeman father died a lame death slipping down a flight of stairs and the "infuriated" family finding all excuses to sue the police department/his partner for "justice". deep down they'll remember the lame ass as one who died a heroic death, battling concrete stairs

byakuya as the head of the dominating kuchiki clan and one of the strongest in its history has no talent compared to ichigo. whatever ichigo is, it's most unlikely that he's even an elite member of some noble clan, let alone crappy kaien's reincarnation. news flash people, kaien didn't loose to emokid arrancar, or uber boss, he got his ass kicked by some below GF level failed trash. anyone who can defeat d-roy is stronger than kaien, therefore rukia, renji, ikkaku >> kaien. the only reason as far as i can see for his 1 year graduation and quick VC status is family connection
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Old 2007-01-31, 18:23   Link #43
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Remember when Ichigo was dieing and Byakuya said "He looks like him"

Since the author put that down there HAS to be sum sort of connection between them. Oh well, time will tell
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Old 2007-01-31, 18:46   Link #44
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well the hollow had a pretty uber ability, makes your zanpaktou go poof, i wonder why he didnt do this with more hollows. cause i mean what is ichigo gona do if zangetsu is gone, kidou 85 it to death?
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Old 2007-01-31, 18:52   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Lendial View Post
well the hollow had a pretty uber ability, makes your zanpaktou go poof, i wonder why he didnt do this with more hollows. cause i mean what is ichigo gona do if zangetsu is gone, kidou 85 it to death?
Ichigo can easily manifest back another Zangetsu ( Zanpakuto == Manifestation of One's Soul Power ) . He joined his Broken Zanpakuto aginst Zaraki did'nt he . And when it comes to Reatsu Ichi is a reservoir .
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Old 2007-01-31, 19:11   Link #46
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well the hollow had a pretty uber ability, makes your zanpaktou go poof, i wonder why he didnt do this with more hollows. cause i mean what is ichigo gona do if zangetsu is gone, kidou 85 it to death?
Q: why did aizen consider those as failed experiments if their unique abilities make them strong?
A: obviously, because they're NOT STRONG

bruce lee's special techniques works well on man, but not a grizzly, it's as simple as that. aizen deemed them failed experiments because they're WEAK and no amounts of special abilities can make up for lack of power. bleach characters comes with different shapes and abilities, but in the end reiatsu/power overcomes all. jidanbo is HUGE, yumichika has an "uber ability", but that won't prevent yamaji or kenpachi from pwning them in no time. and just because little kaien's zanpakutou was snatched doesn't mean everyone elses will, obviously. what do you think if isshin was facing that hollow?

plus who said ichigo needs zangetsu to fight? he takes out shikai VC class people like ants using hands. and don't forget there's getzuga tensho
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Old 2007-01-31, 20:29   Link #47
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Most likely reincarnation but I don't think KT would make such a obious twist like that. He better explain "Why they look so similar" or else I'll scream.
It'll be soooo stupid if the story just ended like "Ichigo looks similar to Kaien but there isn't a connection between them. End of story" how gay would that be!
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Old 2007-01-31, 23:13   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Melodymix View Post
Remember when Ichigo was dieing and Byakuya said "He looks like him"

Since the author put that down there HAS to be sum sort of connection between them. Oh well, time will tell
I just posted a theory on this yesterday, but what if all of these references were comparing Ichigo to Isshin, not kaien?
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Old 2007-02-01, 00:58   Link #49
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you got it the wrong way around. the "demotion" of the shiba nobles and moving to rukongai were postmortem. kaien's death was basically what started all that.

kaien's siblings kukaku and ganju, ashamed by their big brother's death at the hands of a no name hollow, unable to come to terms with the reality that is his brother's weakness, distanced themselves from others and used shinigami especially rukia as psycological scapegoats to make themsleves feel better.
pre-houguyoku failed experimental regular monstrous hollow is about as weak as it gets as far as hybrids go. in reality kaien dishonored himself and his clan when he lost to this crap, failing to avenge his wife. rukia didn't just do the right thing, she did the possessed kaien a favor, ending his misery. kukaku should have thanked her, but that's too humiliating for her big ego, so she chose to live in denial.

it's like, one's policeman father died a lame death slipping down a flight of stairs and the "infuriated" family finding all excuses to sue the police department/his partner for "justice". deep down they'll remember the lame ass as one who died a heroic death, battling concrete stairs

byakuya as the head of the dominating kuchiki clan and one of the strongest in its history has no talent compared to ichigo. whatever ichigo is, it's most unlikely that he's even an elite member of some noble clan, let alone crappy kaien's reincarnation. news flash people, kaien didn't loose to emokid arrancar, or uber boss, he got his ass kicked by some below GF level failed trash. anyone who can defeat d-roy is stronger than kaien, therefore rukia, renji, ikkaku >> kaien. the only reason as far as i can see for his 1 year graduation and quick VC status is family connection
Ok are you just Trolling again or do you have a source for your claim that Kaien's death was what started the Shiba clan's fall from grace?
the only facts I have been able to find out about Kaien from going over volumes 10 through 16 are:

- he passed the entrance exan for the Academy in 1 try
- his spirit energy level was at par with the then current VC of the 13 division
- He finished the 6 years worth of curriculum in 2 years
- 5 years later he became a VC
- Ganjyu has never been around Shinigami other then his brother and the person who return his body (Rukia) and went with Ichigo to see what they were like. All of the other noble houses live inside the inner city and would be around a large number of shinigami
- Kaien was the eldest member of the clan at the time of his death
- Helping Urahara excape in to exile was not a crime big enuff to get the Shihouin clan kicked out of the Nobles but Soi Fong stated that helping Ichigo was, Meaning it would take a near rebelion to fall from grace. and makes your statement of being throwen out because Kaien was taken over by a hollow and had to be killed moronic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
Q: why did aizen consider those as failed experiments if their unique abilities make them strong?
A: obviously, because they're NOT STRONG


bruce lee's special techniques works well on man, but not a grizzly, it's as simple as that. aizen deemed them failed experiments because they're WEAK and no amounts of special abilities can make up for lack of power. bleach characters comes with different shapes and abilities, but in the end reiatsu/power overcomes all. jidanbo is HUGE, yumichika has an "uber ability", but that won't prevent yamaji or kenpachi from pwning them in no time. and just because little kaien's zanpakutou was snatched doesn't mean everyone elses will, obviously. what do you think if isshin was facing that hollow?
The power level of the hollow is not why they were failed experiments. They were failed experiments because Azein was trying to make Hollow-Shinigami hybreds but this one did not seem to gain any of the shinigami's powers. Yes that hollow was weak and in fact Kaien was beating it down with his bare hands and was about to kill it with a spell when it used it's other ablity that you have neglected to mention, the ablity to merge with anyone that had touched it. Once that happen it and he became a psudo-vizard with the hollow in control. Who knows given time Kaien might have been able to regain control by beating the hollow down in his inner or the hollow might have consumed him, we don't know because he was killed in self defence shortly afterwards.

If Isshin was faceing it who knows? He's fine if he never touches it or if his is not the first soulslayer to hit it that day or he can one hit it. Otherwise who knows, it all depends on what things factor in to it's ability to merge with spirits. It could go just as bad as with what happen to Kaien.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
plus who said ichigo needs zangetsu to fight? he takes out shikai VC class people like ants using hands. and don't forget there's getzuga tensho
No Zangetsu = no Getzuga tensho = no range atacks and with this hollow at best Ichigo now has 2 crazed hollows in his head.
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Old 2007-02-01, 01:31   Link #50
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I think I remember a scene with Rukia and Renji in Rukongai, nearly dieing from hunger, when Kaien came along and gave them something to eat, telling them that he also came from Rukongai. After that, they decided to become Shinigami.
I remember that scene. Except that it wasn't Kaien, just a random shinigami.
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Old 2007-02-01, 03:43   Link #51
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Thumbs up

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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Ok are you just Trolling again or do you have a source for your claim that Kaien's death was what started the Shiba clan's fall from grace?
do you have source for your claim of hiyori being the no.1 vaizard, or are YOU just trolling? what we have is the fall and kukaku's hatred towards rukia and shinigamis in general didn't start before the death. care to explain why rukia have to apologize for defending herself?

Quote:
Meaning it would take a near rebelion to fall from grace. and makes your statement of being throwen out because Kaien was taken over by a hollow and had to be killed moronic.
just quoting wiki
Quote:
Both Kūkaku and Ganju became distrustful of shinigami after Kaien's death. The Shiba clan was eventually removed from the top noble families, although it is unclear whether this was caused by Kaien's actions during life or by his death. The clan eventually left Seireitei to live in their residence in Rukongai. The clan diminished and is now thought to only consist of Kaien's two siblings.
the head of their clan died, they were "thrown out" by natural selection, and their own shame. it's clear kukaku's just letting out her frustration/humiliation on rukia. if she had a positive attitude, she would have tried to prove their worth instead of sitting in a corner hating people. ganju's hatred towards shinigamis mark his denial of his clan's weakness. and he IS weak

if you haven't realized until now, no one's talking about kaien because of his strength, only because of his resemblance to the shounen hero, which is about the only thing remotely impressive with this dead guy. you know it's pathetic

what we have is: kaien's + wife + whole squad = wasted by 1 hybrid hollow, and
Spoiler:


aizen's no dumbass when it comes to power, if those "special abilities" in weaklings actually make bigger difference than hougyoku or top level menos, he would have realized.
and if you think aizen's after hybridization, then you've completely missed the point: aizen is maniac who's all about reaching the NEXT POWER LEVEL he follows whichever path that grants him the most power, and this JUST HAPPENS to be hybridization. and failure = not enough power boost. there's no debate on this. i'm sure
Spoiler:


Quote:
No Zangetsu = no Getzuga tensho = no range atacks and with this hollow at best Ichigo now has 2 crazed hollows in his head.
yeah, i'm sure both shirosaki and ichigo, or anyone indeed would be totally pwned by this hollow without zanpakutou. i'm sure whatever works on little kaien works on EVERYONE in bleach. have you even an ounce of common sense?
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Old 2007-02-01, 03:49   Link #52
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Quoting the wiki is generally a good way to spread random ideas. It means nothing. There are many "facts" in the wiki which are merely wild speculation. There is no evidence that the Shiba clan's fall has anything at all to do with Kaien. If there is some evidence, I'd dearly love to know what the source is.
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Old 2007-02-01, 04:19   Link #53
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don't you get it? i'm talking about their hatred, especially the need of an apology from rukia, and the FACT that kaien+wife+squad got wasted by a failed experiment. kukaku is clearly living in denial, regardless of the status of the shiba clan.

the special abilities of a failed regular hollow won't make it anywhere near actual hougyoku creations. otherwise instead of calling them failed experiments, aizen would have called the hougyoku a failed device, it's obvious logic. people sure are messing things up: aizen went the hybrid path because he believe that offers him the most power, not because "he's just a tech guy who dreamed about perfect shinigami-hollow mixes regardless of their strength".
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Old 2007-02-01, 09:12   Link #54
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
do you have source for your claim of hiyori being the no.1 vaizard, or are YOU just trolling?
Lets see chapters 190 - 222 she has been shown in charge of the Vizards and also was the one of that took the longest of the Vizards to beat her hollow which is implied to be an indecation of how strong they are.

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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
what we have is the fall and kukaku's hatred towards rukia and shinigamis in general didn't start before the death. care to explain why rukia have to apologize for defending herself?
Funny I just reread nearly the whole SS arc and I'm haveing problems finding any evedence that Kukaku had any hatred for Shinigamis. The closested I found was that she was pissed at Rukia because she had droped off Kaien's body with no explanation.

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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
just quoting wiki

the head of their clan died, they were "thrown out" by natural selection, and their own shame. it's clear kukaku's just letting out her frustration/humiliation on rukia. if she had a positive attitude, she would have tried to prove their worth instead of sitting in a corner hating people. ganju's hatred towards shinigamis mark his denial of his clan's weakness. and he IS weak
As stated Wiki is one of the worst souces of infomation with out a second source as anyone can edit it. Agian there is no indecation that Kukaku had any anger focused on Rukia or Shinigamis.. Ganju's anger had nothing to do with his denial his anger was all based on the fact his brother was killed by a Shinigami and he was never told all the details.

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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
if you haven't realized until now, no one's talking about kaien because of his strength, only because of his resemblance to the shounen hero, which is about the only thing remotely impressive with this dead guy. you know it's pathetic

what we have is: kaien's + wife + whole squad = wasted by 1 hybrid hollow, and
Spoiler:
No one has claimed Kaien was all great and powerful but he was at least at what is considered VC level. And nice to see your backpedleing on Rukia being of VC level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
aizen's no dumbass when it comes to power, if those "special abilities" in weaklings actually make bigger difference than hougyoku or top level menos, he would have realized.
and if you think aizen's after hybridization, then you've completely missed the point: aizen is maniac who's all about reaching the NEXT POWER LEVEL he follows whichever path that grants him the most power, and this JUST HAPPENS to be hybridization. and failure = not enough power boost. there's no debate on this. i'm sure
Spoiler:



yeah, i'm sure both shirosaki and ichigo, or anyone indeed would be totally pwned by this hollow without zanpakutou. i'm sure whatever works on little kaien works on EVERYONE in bleach. have you even an ounce of common sense?
And your proof that the merging ablity wouldn't work on Ichigo is what? Just because he has huge amounts of plot armor does not mean an atack that will never be used on him wouldn't work on him if it was used on him. As I was trying to point out hollow Kaien was acting quite a lot like Hichigo and for all we know Kaien could have recovered given time or not. Ether way it does nothing to prove that Kaien's death caused the Fall of the Shiba clan. All it proves is that He was killed by a dangeous hollow while on duty there is nothing dishonorable in that or are you claiming Ukitake made up something to cover the death of his men?

Other points in on Kaien haveing nothing to do with the fall of the Shiba's. Soi Fong implied that Yoruichi knew what the fall of the Shiba clan was like which would mean it would have happend before she left SS over 100 years ago since Soi Fong had no information that Yoruichi ever return to SS after she and At the very least over 50 years before Kaien's death.

Last edited by kagato3; 2007-02-01 at 13:51.
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Old 2007-02-01, 14:10   Link #55
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[QUOTE=kagato3;818844]Lets see chapters 190 - 222 she has been shown in
Quote:
As stated Wiki is one of the worst souces of infomation with out a second source as anyone can edit it. Agian there is no indecation that Kukaku had any anger focused on Rukia or Shinigamis.. Ganju's anger had nothing to do with his denial his anger was all based on the fact his brother was killed by a Shinigami and he was never told all the details.
kaien's death is no state secret. both ganju and kukaku could and should have known the details. their current behavior indicates either ignorance or denial. stuff like "rukia didn't leave with an explanation" "never told the details" are lame excuses because they're not babies, it's also their responsibility to learn the facts. deep inside it's kukaku who doesn't want to hear the real explanation, because her brother was possessed and died a pretty lame death.

what isshin hates the most is not the hollow who killed masaki, or the shinigami who was responsible for karakura at that time, it's HIS OWN inability to protect his wife, even though he didn't have any powers at the time, because he's a MAN. only sissies go all the way to find excuses and dump blame and hatred on others

kukaku should have apologized/thanked rukia on behalf of her brother, she should have apologized to ukitate for letting him down. it's humiliating indeed, but admitting the humiliating fact like the germans is way better than living in denial like the japs.

Quote:
No one has claimed Kaien was all great and powerful but he was at least at what is considered VC level.
yet VC gin gracefully and effortlessly finishes failed experiments. VC gin >> kaien. at best he was a low level VC. and we know all the main players of this current arc has got to be at the very frikken least top level VCs to be of any use. kaien is mediocre by comparison. as a member of one of the 5 noble families, compared to members of the other noble families we've seen, namely yoruichi and byakuya, he's crap.

Quote:
charge of the Vizards and also was the one of that took the longest of the Vizards to beat her hollow which is implied to be an indecation of how strong they are.
implied by who? you? is it implied anywhere in bleach that A taking longer than B to learn his zanpakutou's name than B means A's zanpakutou is more powerful? yes, ichigo took the longest time to beat his hollow, and we know being the shounen hero his hollow is quite likely the most powerful. but is it implied anywhere in bleach that what applies to ichigo also applies to others?

yachiru's also "in charge" of the female shinigami, and tasuki also abuses ichigo, doesn't mean shit. what we see in real battles is that vaizard hiyori was crushed like an ant by hollow ichigo in shikai mode with a single hand and scared shitless. and she was totally EXPECTING the hollow. compare that to byakuya's composure against UNEXPECTED hollow ichigo in BANKAI or one armed unreleased grimmjow against UNEXPECTED VAIZARD (that's hollow+shinigami powers) ichigo in BANKAI. you find me another leader in bleach this lame and i'll agree with you.
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Old 2007-02-01, 17:41   Link #56
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[QUOTE=hdx514;819151]
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Lets see chapters 190 - 222 she has been shown in


kaien's death is no state secret. both ganju and kukaku could and should have known the details. their current behavior indicates either ignorance or denial. stuff like "rukia didn't leave with an explanation" "never told the details" are lame excuses because they're not babies, it's also their responsibility to learn the facts. deep inside it's kukaku who doesn't want to hear the real explanation, because her brother was possessed and died a pretty lame death.

what isshin hates the most is not the hollow who killed masaki, or the shinigami who was responsible for karakura at that time, it's HIS OWN inability to protect his wife, even though he didn't have any powers at the time, because he's a MAN. only sissies go all the way to find excuses and dump blame and hatred on others

kukaku should have apologized/thanked rukia on behalf of her brother, she should have apologized to ukitate for letting him down. it's humiliating indeed, but admitting the humiliating fact like the germans is way better than living in denial like the japs.
You need to reread chpt 181. Kukaku was told by Ukitake what had happend a long time ago and held no blame to Rukia or the shinigami for his death. She was ticked that Rukia herself never apologized for or explained what happend. She basicly just drop off this body covered in swordwounds. And Ganju stated himself to Ichigo before they entered the inner city that he was very young when it happend so he did not know all the details of Kaien's death but did know that Kaien was killed by swords and had not blamed his death on the shinigami that killed him.

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yet VC gin gracefully and effortlessly finishes failed experiments. VC gin >> kaien. at best he was a low level VC. and we know all the main players of this current arc has got to be at the very frikken least top level VCs to be of any use. kaien is mediocre by comparison. as a member of one of the 5 noble families, compared to members of the other noble families we've seen, namely yoruichi and byakuya, he's crap.
You mean the same hollows being held at bay by 4 barely trained Shinigamis? The same hollows that major power was to cloak their presence? The same hollows that Gin knew where they were and what thier ablities were? Oh yes thats exactly what happend with Kaien. Oh wait no it's not. The hollow that killed Kaien wiped out a squad of fully trained Shinigamis, had completely differnt powers, was an almost complete unkown, and he was killed because it's powers let it merge with him.
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implied by who? you? is it implied anywhere in bleach that A taking longer than B to learn his zanpakutou's name than B means A's zanpakutou is more powerful? yes, ichigo took the longest time to beat his hollow, and we know being the shounen hero his hollow is quite likely the most powerful. but is it implied anywhere in bleach that what applies to ichigo also applies to others?
It's common sence that the stronger the hollow, the stronger the powers, the longer it takes to beat. Learning a zanpakutou name is irelevent as that is in no way the same or even similar.


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yachiru's also "in charge" of the female shinigami, and tasuki also abuses ichigo, doesn't mean shit. what we see in real battles is that vaizard hiyori was crushed like an ant by hollow ichigo in shikai mode with a single hand and scared shitless. and she was totally EXPECTING the hollow. compare that to byakuya's composure against UNEXPECTED hollow ichigo in BANKAI or one armed unreleased grimmjow against UNEXPECTED VAIZARD (that's hollow+shinigami powers) ichigo in BANKAI. you find me another leader in bleach this lame and i'll agree with you.
You're claiming she is weak because an unreleased vaizard hiyori was taken off guard by the speed of released hollow Ichigo who then crushed her throat untill she passed out?

Last edited by kagato3; 2007-02-01 at 23:31.
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Old 2007-02-01, 19:55   Link #57
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how did aizen exp with hollows in the first place w/o the orb of distortion? some branch of kidou?
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Old 2007-02-02, 02:27   Link #58
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Probably kidou; we never heard any useful details.

But this isn't the thread to discuss it further.
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Old 2007-02-02, 21:31   Link #59
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Anyway back to the topic!
Their better be a connection cause it won't make sense why they are so alike
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Old 2007-02-03, 13:12   Link #60
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Anyway back to the topic!
Their better be a connection cause it won't make sense why they are so alike
they better have NO connection, otherwise it would suck to have (again) some reincarnation theory or something.

Besides, as Ganju would say, Shiba Kaien is a bit too chummy (same goes for Kuukaku and Ganju). Ichigo is (was) rather solitary and not that talkative.
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