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View Poll Results: Kanon - 2006 - Episode 18 Rating
Perfect 10 82 52.23%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 59 37.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 6.37%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 2.55%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.64%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.64%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-02-05, 16:49   Link #141
guuchan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raniie View Post
As evidence be my witness. Shiori DID lied to Yuuichi for your point #1. Go watch episode 12; timestamp 6:15 - 6:18.

Yuuichi: Hey, there's a girl in my class with the same last name as you. Misaka Kaori.
Shiori: Yuuichi-san, you're in the same class as my sister?

As the dialogue continues, Shiori continues to be dishonest to Yuuichi. You can see it in the reaction of her face. Now take note of the scene where she said "I love my sister." and where she's looking at. She was looking at her sister from a distance as she said that. At time stamp 7:34+ you'll see Kaori looking at Shiori and Yuuichi talking at the courtyard.

So Skane stand corrected . Shiori DOES know what class Kaori is in.
I think you're misunderstanding something here. That's my point --- Shiori did know Kaori's class and name, that's why she didn't lie, because she was referring to U1. Skane's point was that Shiori possibly didn't know Kaori's class, so according to Skane's theory, she wouldn't be looking at Kaori's class, then.

Quote:
As Skane stated before. Shiori's goal is Kaori, not Yuuichi. This isn't a harem series damnit!
Kanon IS a harem series, just the way KyoAni depicts it makes it doesn't seem so. Other than a more touching story, what's the difference between it and other adv games? If the other series are classified as harem series, so should Kanon. They belong to the same category (so-called "love adv game").

The rest of what you said touched my 2nd and 3rd questions, but Skane already answered them. You can read up and see what my response was.
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Old 2007-02-05, 17:12   Link #142
Vexx
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I think (and its also my contention) that the "isn't a harem series" refers to the additional facets that make it a good deal more than a generic harem genre item. I consider it a mystery story first... the "harem" aspect is considerably down the list for what makes it valuable to me. I even consider the game more of a mystery story than a "harem date sim" ... in fact the "goal reward" sections (ecchi) seem out of place for the most part to me.
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Old 2007-02-05, 17:56   Link #143
guuchan
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Ah, of course Kanon is much more than that, but what I said was the down-to-the-bottom definition of it.
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Old 2007-02-05, 18:33   Link #144
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well this isnt your usual run of the mill harem as none of the characters have said "i love you" yet to yuuichi (besides 1 ~ makoto) ~ but the signs are there that all the girl loves him really ^_^ still in this case it seems that love isnt the first prio but rather to sort out all the mishaps that are happening to each of the girl's lives...and when everything is done then we can get some loving (but realistically i cant see the ending with yuuichi + one of the girls...that would be cruel...think of Air )
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Old 2007-02-05, 19:01   Link #145
Raniie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
Still think she went for Yuuichi, but didn't expect to meet him. I think we've exhausted this arguement though.
Nope, we haven't. Because you guys that still think Shiori went for Yuuichi haven't fully explain your side of the story for believing she was there for Yuuichi. Where's your proof, speculation, theory, etc. There's more evidence that Shiori was there for Kaori than for Yuuichi that day.

I haven't heard of a convincing theory as to why she would want to see Yuuichi on that first visit.

Again, let me clearly state it. Shiori went to the courtyard was because of Kaori. The courtyard was a place of promise from Kaori. Shiori was THINKING of Kaori is why she went there. Shiori was staring at Kaori's classroom when she was out there in the courtyard. So why does anyone still think she's there for Yuuichi when he isn't even on her mind? Tell me exactly what reasons does she has for being there to see Yuuichi? After the lunch bell rang, Yuuichi showing up to see Shiori was just a bonus for her. She wasn't hoping or expecting to see him there. She was actually about to leave, if it weren't for Yuuichi making a mad dash to see if she's still there.

Shiori wasn't referring to Yuuichi when she said she was here to meet someone. This someone isn't referred to Yuuichi. I mean, her initial comment said "What are you doing here?" to Yuuichi. Why would she said that if her latter statement is for Yuuichi, if that's who she wanted to meet?

Shiori: What are you doing here?
Yuuichi: I saw you, and since you're not a student, I came to check up on you.
~
Shiori: Today, I snuck out to meet someone.
Shiori: I'll be scolded if people find me at school when I'm supposed to be absent.
Yuuichi: You're meeting that person here?
Shiori: No, I actually do not know much about that person either.
Shiori: I do not know the person's name, year, or class.
Shiori: You've met the person before though, right?
Shiori: Yes, I have.
Yuuichi: What kind of person is it? A guy? A girl?
Shiori: That's a secret.

Shiori: I'll go home now.
Yuuichi: Weren't you going to meet someone?
Shiori: It is all right today.
Shiori: I'm sorry to make you attend to me.

Again, Shiori is known to lie. She's not very honest to strangers. Since she said she doesn't know the person name, year, or class. She should know Yuuichi's year, since Ayu asked Shiori what grade she's in. Shiori replied saying she's a freshmen, Yuuichi got shocked and saying Ayu is in the same grade as him. Furthermore, during the first meet up, Yuuichi was wearing his school uniform.
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Old 2007-02-05, 19:20   Link #146
Vexx
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Either scenario is possible since Shiori *met* Yuuichi and Ayu in the park and knows about him.

So far, with the information presented in Kanon2k6 - the evidence doesn't really provide enough data to know whether Shiori or Yuuichi is the intended target. The weight kind of depends on whether you think Shiori is hoping that Kaori might have a change of heart if she sees her outside ... or that she could play mysterious girl and tweak Yuuichi's interest since she found him so entertaining on that first meeting in the park with Ayu. I think the weight is toward meeting Yuuichi after that fateful park meeting because she chose not to take that final action -- but that is only implied with the flashback in ep 18.

Last edited by Vexx; 2007-02-05 at 19:43.
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Old 2007-02-05, 19:37   Link #147
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Bleh, lets just assume that she went hoping to meet either of them That conversation is not enough to extract whom she was hoping to meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raniie
ince she said she doesn't know the person name, year, or class. She should know Yuuichi's yea
So...you are implying she doesn't know Kaori's year ?



... if i would have to pick, i would say she went to see Kaori... but only if i am forced to, and i am suposed to pick one of them, and that would be more of a guess than anything else, because it is not possible to determine which one, especially if you like to put so much emphasis on the fact that Shiori is lying ... which would mean we don't know whether she was telling the truth or not. And that is if we ignore the fact that she does not need to go to school to meet Kaori.

Still that conversation leans more towards Yuuichi than Kaori, exactly because she says she does not know the person's year - she knows Kaori's year, but to know Yuuichi's year she should do some basic analysis on the conversation between Yuuichi/Ayu ... and considering that time she was going home to end her own life, i think it is reasonable to assume that she was not in the mindset to do some analysis (however simple they might seem).

Either way i am taking the middle road here and saying that she was hoping to run in to either one of them
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Old 2007-02-05, 19:44   Link #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Bleh, lets just assume that she went hoping to meet either of them That conversation is not enough to extract whom she was hoping to meet.
FPB supports this course of action
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Old 2007-02-05, 19:49   Link #149
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There's been no evidence suggesting that there is any difference in the male uniforms across the years. As for Shiori not knowing the year, it's possible that she just didn't make the connection(Shiori is first-year, Ayu is one year above, Yuuichi is one year above -> Yuuichi is one year above Shiori, and thus second-year). It's only the next day, and she did have a pretty rough night.

Not only that, there's the question of why she kept the gender in particular a secret. Had the person in question been Kaori, then there would've been no problem simply stating "female". She did hide her last name, and so there wouldn't have been any further connection between her and her sister. Furthermore, Shiori wasn't hesitant about telling Yuuichi about her sister once he asked her about it.

Had the person in question been Yuuichi, it would've been very easy for Yuuichi to guess that it was himself she was talking about if she said the gender was "male". Saying that it's a secret keeps a level of ambiguity in this case, where keeping it a secret or not doesn't change anything in the other case.

This is also the second semister, she was probably done thinking of going to school with Kaori after the first. Yuuichi on the other hand was still fresh in her mind.

In any case, even though (assuming) she went there to meet Yuuichi, she never expected to actually meet him there. The chances of that happening is one-in-a-million. However, she is willing to take that chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiori
It's strange, isn't it?
I know that nobody's here, yet I still stand in this place and naturally, nobody's here.
But I still couldn't move from this spot.
Clinging to the faint hope that maybe someone will be here.
…In any case, there's no proof one way or the other.
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Old 2007-02-05, 20:43   Link #150
Aleise
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My own theory on the matter is that Shiori was looking for either Yuuichi or Ayu, since meeting the two of them was what made her stop cutting herself - but she's not really sure of which of them she wants to meet - leading to the unknown name (at this point she doesn't know either of their names), and confusion in the gender, year, and class of the person she's looking for.

I would think that the only lead she has of finding either of them was what Kaori told her - that the courtyard would be a popular spot (well, in spring, but Shiori can't wait that long). Since it was the spot that her sister told her, she couldn't help but think of her while she was there, leading to the staring at her sister's classroom bit.

Why do I think she's not looking for Kaori? Well, if she was looking for Kaori, why does she always leave the school after meeting Yuuichi? We already know she was willing to wait until late afternoon (that one time in . . . err, was it ep. 6?), so if she was really waiting for Kaori, she would have stayed there daily until late, regardless of what Yuuichi says . . .

Last edited by Aleise; 2007-02-05 at 21:43.
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Old 2007-02-05, 21:37   Link #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
There's been no evidence suggesting that there is any difference in the male uniforms across the years. As for Shiori not knowing the year, it's possible that she just didn't make the connection(Shiori is first-year, Ayu is one year above, Yuuichi is one year above -> Yuuichi is one year above Shiori, and thus second-year). It's only the next day, and she did have a pretty rough night.

Not only that, there's the question of why she kept the gender in particular a secret. Had the person in question been Kaori, then there would've been no problem simply stating "female". She did hide her last name, and so there wouldn't have been any further connection between her and her sister. Furthermore, Shiori wasn't hesitant about telling Yuuichi about her sister once he asked her about it.

Had the person in question been Yuuichi, it would've been very easy for Yuuichi to guess that it was himself she was talking about if she said the gender was "male". Saying that it's a secret keeps a level of ambiguity in this case, where keeping it a secret or not doesn't change anything in the other case.

This is also the second semister, she was probably done thinking of going to school with Kaori after the first. Yuuichi on the other hand was still fresh in her mind.

In any case, even though (assuming) she went there to meet Yuuichi, she never expected to actually meet him there. The chances of that happening is one-in-a-million. However, she is willing to take that chance.

…In any case, there's no proof one way or the other.

I'm with you on this one. Even knowing her story, I was getting that vibe in the beginning when she showed up at the school, that she was looking for Yuuichi. I've read the other arguments, and they don't sway me one bit. They're not complete arguments, and don't have enough weight to sway anyone to either side of the fence.

In the end, only the writers know for sure.
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Old 2007-02-05, 22:01   Link #152
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Is this going to be one of those unresolved mysteries like the gender of the Utawarerumono twins? Maybe we should email KyoAni and ask them about it.

Narf.
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Old 2007-02-05, 22:21   Link #153
Meophist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Is this going to be one of those unresolved mysteries like the gender of the Utawarerumono twins? Maybe we should email KyoAni and ask them about it.

Narf.
Isn't Key a better target for those emails? Afterall, they started it.
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Old 2007-02-05, 22:32   Link #154
Skane
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
Isn't Key a better target for those emails? Afterall, they started it.
No, because we are trying to interpret the anime-adaptation here. Not the game. All the points I have made were in light of the clues left behind in K06. Ergo, the same approach that people were taking with the Archer-twins in Utawarerumono( because it was stated very clearly in the game that they were male, but the anime was very coy about their gender).

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-06, 02:19   Link #155
Raniie
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Here's my crappy summary of Shiori's arc. :P

Episode 02: Shiori's encounter with Yuuchi and Ayu initial scene show us Shiori was not all that interested in Yuuichi. Instead, she had her eyes on Ayu majority of the time for reasons that can be related to how she would wanted Kaori to be more talkative towards her. This scene also shows Ayu take more initiative talking to Shiori, while Yuuichi was busy making fun of Ayu.

Episode 18: Shiori explain that day pending her doom, that Yuuichi and Ayu's encounter was so important to her, which saved her from possibilty dying a slow death. Now rewind back to Episode 03.

Episode 03: Jun been staring out at the window, noticing a girl in the courtyard and tell Yuuichi about it. As Yuuichi takes a look, we're shown that Shiori is looking at the direction of Yuuichi's class. The same class Kaori is in. As the Lunch bell rang, Yuuichi went down to meet her.

Shiori: Hello.
Shiori: What are you doing here?
Yuuichi: I saw you, and since you're not a student, I came to check up on you.
Shiori: Oh, I see. Sorry to trouble you. But you're a little wrong.
Shiori: I'm not an outsider. I'm a student at this school.
~
Shiori: Today, I snuck out to meet someone.
Shiori: I'll be scolded if people find me at school when I'm supposed to be absent.
Yuuichi: You're meeting that person here?
Shiori: No, I actually do not know much about that person either.
Shiori: I do not know the person's name, year, or class.
Shiori: You've met the person before though, right?
Shiori: Yes, I have.
Yuuichi: What kind of person is it? A guy? A girl?
Shiori: That's a secret.
Shiori: I'll go home now.
Yuuichi: Weren't you going to meet someone?
Shiori: It is all right today.
Shiori: I'm sorry to make you attend to me.

Now move on to Episode 04: Kaori bumps into Yuuichi, as he was exiting school delivering lunch to Nayuki, she tell Yuuichi she doesn't want to be home. This was obviously to avoid Shiori.

On to Episode 05: Yuuichi find Shiori at the courtyard again. This time Shiori openly admits she was here for Yuuichi, because she finally said Yuuichi was an interesting person to her.

On to Episode 06: Yuuichi find Shiori at the courtyard again on a Sunday; no school. Anyone can give multiple interpretations why she's here. Such as avoiding her sister or hoping her sister would come here or someone to come, or even just to not be home, since it might be depressing to stay home.

On to Episode 07: Nothing really special going on here, but Yuuichi meets up with Shiori again at the court yard. Talks about the promise of making the 10 meter Snowman. She also mentioned how she doesn't like staying home.

Fast foward to Episode 11: Yuuichi yet again, meets up with Shiori at the courtyard. Here we find out Shiori love Ice cream. Later toward the end of the episode at around timestamp 18:55+ we're shown a scene where Yuuichi is in class and Shiori is at the courtyard waving at him. Then the screen pans to Kaori view looking troubled and worried.

Moving on to Episode 12: reveals about Shiori's illness is more serious than it looks by her classmate to Yuuichi. Yuuichi also finds out about Shiori's last name here. As Yuuichi tries to confront Kaori about it. We now see Kaori being melodramatic about the mention of her sister's name.

Moving to Episode 13: Yuuichi ask Shiori if Kaori was her sister. Shiori was suprised that Yuuichi was in the same class as her, but quickly changed her answer to something else and fabricated a reason for it, when Yuuichi made the after-comment. As the convo continues, Shiori was staring at a distance the moment she said "I love my sister." The view point she was staring at was at her sister from a distance, Kaori was inside the school building. Kaori was observing Yuuichi and Shiori outside talking to each other.

On to Episode 16: Shiori's focus point starts here. We learn about Shiori's hobby is drawing, even tho, presumably, she's bad at it going by what Yuuichi said. Shiori explains to us how much importance of that event she had with Ayu and Yuuichi was to her. She also comfirms she lied about her illness. She also comfirmed what her classmate told Yuuichi. She also explain the importance of the courtyard is to her. She explains what she wants in life, the simplicity of being able to do normal day activities like normal people do. This to her, is why Yuuichi and Ayu's encounter was so important to her. Kaori further explain about Shiori's condition and seriousness of her illness. Her reason for the way she has been acting. Her denial of Shiori's existant to her.

On to Episode 17: The begining of the episode explains to us that Nayuki isn't gonna play a significant role for Shiori's arc. Since Kaori specifically stated that she doesn't want her to get involved this time. Shiroi further explain a bit about her past and her relation with Kaori. She also further explains the promise and the importance of the courtyard. Before Shiori met Yuuichi and Ayu, she was doing what her sister was doing, avoiding each other (presumably she was doing her best avoiding Kaori for a whole year, which is presumably why she said she rarely wore that shawl Kaori gave to her), which is why she said she tried to avoid her sister as well. Later in episode 18, Yuuichi's and Ayu's event that day is what made her go and tried to see her sister. Shiori also ask Yuuichi to treat her normally. The next day Shiori comes to Yuuichi's classroom. In the classroom scene, Shiori was more fixated on Kaori than on Yuuichi. Later that evening when Kaori finally gets home, Shiori tried to greet her sister, but obviously Kaori is playing hard to get. We're shown some dramatical scenes here. We also learn that Shiori can cook or make a decent meal. Another thing to note, Ayu helping out Yuuichi for Shiori's arc makes a lot of sense here, as Ayu has a connection with Shiori, so Yuuichi talking to Ayu about Shiori's birthday present goes very well in context.

Back to Episode 18: A great deal of information is revealed in this episode that answers a lot of events that occured in the previous episodes. It is explained that Kaori knew Shiori was at the courtyard nearly everyday waiting for her. Yuuichi even knows the answer to episode's 3 debate too. As he clearly states: "Do you know why Shiori came here every day?!" "She wanted to eat lunch with you (Kaori), out here (courtyard)!" The very moment Yuuichi utter that last line. It's why Kaori acted suprised. Shiori's final scene with Yuuichi explain about Yuuichi's and Ayu event, the importance behind it. She also explain why she wears the shawl, how she got it, by who, and why she didn't wear it before. She also talks about her suicide attempt. Shiori's arc then ends with a little room to breathe. So her story is probably "to be continued..."

For those that still think Shiori is there that day to see Yuuichi. You gotta be able to link what's given in the story to make a possible claim. Why she went to the courtyard (What relation does that has to do with Yuuichi?) Why was she staring at Kaori's class room (Again, what relation does that has to do with Yuuichi?) Why she tell Yuuichi, "What are you doing here?" -If she was looking to meet or see Yuuichi. Why that question? Isn't it a more suitable statement such as "We meet again." or "It's you from the other day." or any other similar statements to be used instead? More importantly, if she was really looking for Yuuichi, why she didn't ask for his name that they are finally meeting each other? Why she didn't introduce herself to him? Instead, she just walks off, it wasn't until then that Yuuichi realized they haven't introduce each other yet. My point is, if she's there to meet or see Yuuichi. It means she has some interest in Yuuichi. However, that scene completely show no interest in Yuuichi what-so-ever. It is not until episode 05 that she openly states that she is now here to see Yuuichi, because he's finally an "interesting" person to her.

There's way more convincing story materials to base Shiori's reasons of her first visit at the courtyard that day for Kaori, than there is for Yuuichi.

Tho, I will agree that we probably will never have a solid answer who she was really there for, so I'll leave it as that. Tho, I'm still interested in reading more about the reasons for Shiori to see Yuuichi. It's still fun to look at it from a different perspective.

P.S. I've read all the post before me and those are good reasons, but still not convincing enough, either. XP

Last edited by Raniie; 2007-02-06 at 03:24.
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Old 2007-02-06, 03:54   Link #156
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raniie View Post
Why she went to the courtyard (What relation does that has to do with Yuuichi?)
A flawed point, because there is no place in the school that would relate with Yuuichi at that point.... and it probably makes sense to stand in front of the school if you want to meet some one, not behind the gym

Quote:
Why was she staring at Kaori's class room (Again, what relation does that has to do with Yuuichi?)
Well, since she does not know where to look for Yuuichi, she might as well have been staring at the only place she knows there while waiting(for whomever she was waiting).

Quote:
Why she tell Yuuichi, "What are you doing here?" -If she was looking to meet or see Yuuichi. Why that question? Isn't it a more suitable statement such as "We meet again." or "It's you from the other day." or any other similar statements to be used instead? More importantly, if she was really looking for Yuuichi, why she didn't ask for his name that they are finally meeting each other? Why she didn't introduce herself to him?
Perhaps she did not want to reveal to an essentially complete stranger that she is wandering the school grounds in hopes of meeting him ?
And as Shiori said - girls with secrets are more attractive ... that, and she looked happy when Yuuichi asked for her name.

Quote:
There's way more convincing story materials to base Shiori's reasons of her first visit at the courtyard that day for Kaori, than there is for Yuuichi.
In that case - i have yet to see them. (Besides, Shiori goes home every day after meeting Yuuichi... why would she leave in the 1st day if she wanted to see Kaori ?

And i still say that she went in hopes of seeing either one of them, and the only one to say otherwise is Shiori herself, and i highly doubt that she is going to tell us which one of them she wanted to meet that day, and the "evidence" we can gather is leaving things up for our interpretation, rather than pointing in one specific direction.
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Old 2007-02-06, 07:26   Link #157
Kinny Riddle
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I was at a loss at Raniie's combative attitude and how to respond, in comes other "Yuuichi theorists" in full blazers.

Actually, I'm fine either way, but leaning towards "seeing Yuuichi" theory. Like I said, a compromise is that Shiori came to see both Yuuichi and Kaori.

I'm crap at arguments, so I guess I'll leave this issue as such.

BTW, is the Shiori doing a Mikuru "kinzoku jikou desu" avatar that popular? Already I see Skyfall having an uncannily similar one as mine. Though I PM'ed Pellissier directly for this one.
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Old 2007-02-06, 08:57   Link #158
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At any rate - it is not like it matter that much which one she came to see, and, personally, i think this point is over-debated, and no one has changed his opinion anyway, simply because there is no clear cut answer. Agree to disagree. Middle road is what works for me here.


As for the avatar - Well, it is a nice scene ... as for mine - it is a production of Deathkillz(TM) , so all credits go to him
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Old 2007-02-06, 10:37   Link #159
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I get a feeling we'll see shiori's rendition of kyon the next episode to end the arc. Its sad tho that the shiori arc is gone so fast
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Old 2007-02-06, 11:08   Link #160
Sai the Dreamer
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Originally Posted by sceptileex View Post
I get a feeling we'll see shiori's rendition of kyon the next episode to end the arc. Its sad tho that the shiori arc is gone so fast
Hm? It's actually gone quite slowly; many people were expecting it to be one episode, two at best. Instead we've been gradually getting into her story since midway through Mai's, and then Shiori got three episodes dedicated to her. While that may not seem like much, remember that her story is fairly short, and they were pushing it with three eps.
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