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Old 2007-02-07, 18:08   Link #21
Zek
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What people seem to be missing here is that Naruto appears to have gained a tremendous amount of speed. Sure he's not shown with blurry-lines or whatever, but think about how fast Kakuzu was relative to the other members of the group. Usually when Naruto pulls off a surprise move like this against someone that's faster than him, they're able to just counter it anyway - for example, see Chapter 192. The fact that Kakuzu never even had a chance to turn around is proof that Naruto could match his speed, which is a pretty substantial improvement from before.

I agree though that this new jutsu is sort of disappointing. Sure it's basically an instakill(we better not see anyone that's capable of surviving this) compared to the almost-insta-kill of the Rasengan, but he hasn't improved its delivery in the slightest - in fact, he now needs two clones to prepare it instead of one, and that's assuming he still hasn't learned to do a regular one one-handed.

Also, something that occurred to me: the incredibly flashy delivery of this attack makes me think that we probably won't ever see it again. Either it will be condensed into a single double-page explosion next time, or he'll have developed it further to make it interesting again by the time he hits somebody else with it(or he'll miss with this version a couple times before then). Kishimoto doesn't like to re-use these big flashy attacks very much.

Last edited by Zek; 2007-02-07 at 18:18.
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Old 2007-02-07, 18:12   Link #22
chuckcsf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Remember that the speed of the pre timeskip Naruto, and even that of Sasuke and Lee was nowhere near the speed of akatsuki. Considering that Naruto's speed here was almost unbeliveable. With his kyuubi-mode he was faster here than Kakashi, this was a huge improvment for Naruto.
Good Point. So even though Kishi did not emphasize on Naruto's speed, I guess we can say that he is much faster instead of saying that Kakuzu is much slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tritoch View Post
Kakuzu went all out on the Naruto clone with the rasenshuriken. He didn't had time to react cause he was in midair countering the bunshin attack while going for the clone with rasenshuriken.

The other clones that did the initial attack reformed the rasenshuriken behind Kakuzu.

so meh.
And I failed to mention earlier, AWESOME strategy by Naruto!
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Old 2007-02-07, 18:14   Link #23
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
Is Kakazu is really dead, I would be majorly disappointed; especially reading this summary. Like hunter said, I am amazed as how retarded villians will become for no logical reason.

I was hoping that Naruto seems to obtain some good speed, but it looks like he didn't after all but instead trick his opponents using the mass number of clones and general assumptions they would make ('Ahh that must be the original because he is using the jutsu!').

In either case, this clearly now puts Naruto officially above Kakashi and company which by defaults (knowing how these series go) means that Sasuke himself should be powerful enough to take on Akatsuki members on his own. This series of defeat is also shaping up the strength of the relevant Akatsuki members too.

I suspect it is going to reach a point soon where Itachi (and maybe Kisame) will be given an opportunity to show his true strength.

Lot of people seem to have a problem with Kakuzu getting trick by Naruto becuase he fell for the old shadow clone trick.

But lets look at it closely.


1. From the reports Kakuzu got form the other members, Naruto is hot head who charge into any situtation head first. Dy default he is a idiot. Not exactly un-reasonable for kakuzu to under estimate Naurto's intellignece form those reports. ANd naruto messing up his first attack certainly isn't going to contradict those reports.

2. Kakuzu already seen Naurto use his shadow clones to distract him while his real self attacks with the new Technique. Only reason Kakuzu survive the first time was because the Naruto mess up the excution.

He sees naruto start the same thing again, of course he is going to assume Naruto is going to try the same trick again. How many people would not think that Naurto was doing the same trick twice? How many people would have thought that Naruto is going to try to trick kakuzu by using the shadow clone as bait?

Give credit where credit is due. Naruto used his rep as a hot-head idiot to out smart kakuzu.
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Old 2007-02-07, 18:22   Link #24
Syaoran
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Another tablet drawing this week
This time in colour.

Any feedback welcome ^^

I'll discuss the chapter tomorrow or so... it's 12:22AM and I'm gonna do some serious pillow hugging
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Old 2007-02-07, 18:27   Link #25
Zek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
He sees naruto start the same thing again, of course he is going to assume Naruto is going to try the same trick again. How many people would not think that Naurto was doing the same trick twice? How many people would have thought that Naruto is going to try to trick kakuzu by using the shadow clone as bait?
I think the stupid part was his "ignore the 3 shadow clones" tactic. He had 8 tentacles but he didn't save a single one for self-defense, even knowing that 3 of them were attacking him from behind. He was retarded not to realize that 3 Narutos can create the jutsu, clones or not. Not only that, but he assumed that they wouldn't be capable of performing any sort of attack that would damage him should it hit him. It was a laughably flawed strategy, and I think it's disappointing that this huge oversight was the only way Kishimoto could think of to let Naruto land a hit.
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Old 2007-02-07, 18:30   Link #26
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by chuckcsf View Post
Maybe his eyes are permanently like that. That is the only change that I can see in Naruto. I wonder with Kyuubi eyes, is he still vulnerable to genjutsus?
Well to me it seems that with Kyuubi eyes....Naruto has access to an infinite amount of chakra...only his body has limits.

But that'll be explaned later on....that would be logical.
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Old 2007-02-07, 18:41   Link #27
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Remember that the speed of the pre timeskip Naruto, and even that of Sasuke and Lee was nowhere near the speed of akatsuki. Considering that Naruto's speed here was almost unbeliveable. With his kyuubi-mode he was faster here than Kakashi, this was a huge improvment for Naruto.
I don't see how he was that fast. He was caught by Kakuzu's tendrils just like Kakashi was and had to be bailed out. He landed the hit mostly because of distraction and surprise. Though I admit he is swift, still no evidence of him being faster than Kakashi without use of the Kyuubi.

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The trick was effective because a mere clone was using a super-jutsu, who would expect that? It's like Itachi making a clone and then the clone uses Tsukiyomi/Amatreasu on someone. When someone uses his ultimate jutsu he is supposed to be the real one. I remember only one legendary ninja (including kage level) who made his clone use his super-ultimate jutsu: Yondaime using his teleport jutsu with 50 clones. But nobody made a trick using his ultimate jutsu.
When did Yondaime ever use 50 clones to perform Hiraishin? I don't remember that at all. You're right that it is unusual to use KB in this way though.

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I think this "showing their true strength" is the worst thing in the story: akatsuki just keep falling while they were praised to be super-deadly serial killers. The thing that would make it beliveable would be if major Konoha forces would be killed by them. The worst example is Itachi himself, said to be stronger than Orochimaru, having godlike MS eyes. Than he escapes fighting situations. He should have killed at least Gai and a couple of jounins. While Orochimaru killed two kages and he fears Itachi, so the introduction of Itachi was quite bad. Except if the theories about Itachi not being such an evil guy are true.
Why Itachi decided not to kill Gai and the others has already been discussed several times. It was pointless and furthermore unnecessary to face them at the time. It's not like they have to prove themselves to anyone. Besides, They've already killed Asuma, Gaara (technically), the Nibi, the Sanbi and a temple full of monks.There's also been plenty near misses (Sasori running Sakura through with a blade). You can't have main characters getting slaughtered every time Akatsuki appears or else you will soon have a very limited cast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos
Give credit where credit is due. Naruto used his rep as a hot-head idiot to out smart kakuzu.
Yeah, but Kakuzu had well over 60 years of experience as a ninja. Older than any Sannin. Ask yourself, do you see Orochimaru falling for that trick? Do you see any Sannin falling for that trick? He was pretty much dumbed down for Naruto to win, but it's not completely unbelievable that he would drop his guard given the circumstances.
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Old 2007-02-07, 19:02   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Kakuzu didn't use elemental attack because the first thing that happened to him when Naruto and Yamato stepped in was that his combined elemental attack (of the remaining two masks) was destroyed by Naruto and Yamato combined attack.
After that Kakuzu used his elemental attacks again, destroying two clones, and thus wasting his chakra on mere clones. And remember that there are 4 more ninja to defeat, so he cannot allow to waste chakra on mere clones. Also Naruto's attack failed too, so Kakuzu didn't expect something like this would happen, and as we saw in this chapter not even Kakashi expected something powerful like this. So why use something that has already failed, Kakuzu simply switched to another method, which is probably his basic attack method, because the masks represent people who were defeated by Kakuzu, so they and their elemental attacks should not be Kakuzu's strongest power.
So what? It's like saying that because Kakuzu destroyed Naruto's Kage Bunshin the first time Naruto shouldn't have used this jutsu again, it just doesn't make sense. Kakuzu didn't have any chakra issue, heck he was confident he could still take them all.
Remember when Zabuza was tricked by Naruto and Sasuke's combo? Now that was impressive because there wasn't a "why didn't he use this?" aftertaste.

My sole complain is that with just one more chapter showing Kakuzu trying (yet failling) with all he had Kishimoto could have made the fight much better.
I'm not saying that Naruto wouldn't have been able to win if Kakuzu had used all he got, I'm saying Naruto's victory would have been even more impressive if he did.
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Old 2007-02-07, 19:06   Link #29
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Ha.....I sort of expected Naruto's new jutsu to be able to create such an effect. I have a hard time wondering who wind element is able to combine with rasengan. Since the wind element is mainly used for cutting stuffs and rasengan is more of the explosive type, combining these two together would have create an explosive rasengan that will rip things apart!? Now that proves it then. But....I remember Yamato mentioning that the jutsu isn't complete yet?
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Old 2007-02-07, 19:10   Link #30
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You know speed isn't everything..... I mean my Astroth beats the shit out of Taki all the time (Soul Calibur reference for those in the know).

I don't think Kakuza got dumb all of the sudden. He's lost two hearts and with it 2 elements to work with. That could be near 40% of all his chakra (remember chakra needs physical stamina) and 40% of his jutsus gone. If the lightning heart didn't get to him soon enough when Hidan stabbed him he'd be plain dead.

Now he's faced with even more enemies, it makes sense to keep his spare hearts close. That plus the fact that using the masks as shoulder cannons has already proved effective for dealing with close-quarter combat (in 340).

How would detaching the hearts/ghosts help him against a jutsu like that? Kakashi and Shika had to fight tooth and nail to get 2 hearts out of him, yet Naruto kills 3 in one shot (as far as we know). Detached hearts would only mean more clones that Naruto needs to make to keep them busy, and with Kakuza's main body ripped up there would be little to put back together again anyway.

PS Bait and switch is the oldest trick in the book for a reason....... because people still fall for it all the time.
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Old 2007-02-07, 19:17   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Zek View Post
I think the stupid part was his "ignore the 3 shadow clones" tactic. He had 8 tentacles but he didn't save a single one for self-defense, even knowing that 3 of them were attacking him from behind. He was retarded not to realize that 3 Narutos can create the jutsu, clones or not. Not only that, but he assumed that they wouldn't be capable of performing any sort of attack that would damage him should it hit him. It was a laughably flawed strategy, and I think it's disappointing that this huge oversight was the only way Kishimoto could think of to let Naruto land a hit.
There is nothing wrong with ignoring the clones. If you kill the original, the clones will disappear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Yeah, but Kakuzu had well over 60 years of experience as a ninja. Older than any Sannin. Ask yourself, do you see Orochimaru falling for that trick? Do you see any Sannin falling for that trick? He was pretty much dumbed down for Naruto to win, but it's not completely unbelievable that he would drop his guard given the circumstances.
How do you know they wouldn't fall for it? Unless you have Sharagain eye you can't tell which is the original.
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Old 2007-02-07, 19:23   Link #32
gibits
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
There is nothing wrong with ignoring the clones. If you kill the original, the clones will disappear.




How do you know they wouldn't fall for it? Unless you have Sharagain eye you can't tell which is the original.
According to the manga, even with the Sharingan, you can't tell. Anime says otherwise, but anime is hardly canon.

Cited from the fact that the Kakashi stated in no uncertein terms that the Byakugan's powers of perception were greater than that of the Sharingan. In Naruto's fight against Neiji, Neiji could not figure out which was the real Naruto either, so he just beat all of them up.
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Old 2007-02-07, 19:34   Link #33
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Speaking of which, I still don't see why Naruto's new jutsu will have an effect on sharingan users. One major flaw with the new jutsu is that it is just an upgraded version rasengan. The whole jutsu will be useless unless Naruto is able to hit that person. And I'm pretty sure Naruto's movement now is unable to surpass that of sharingan. For Naruto's jutsu to really post a thread to sharingan users, he'll most probably have to first complete that jutsu...make it more perfect or something and he gotta work on his close ranged combat skills. Since Naruto knew how to use the Kaga Bunshin now, I suppose he'll have a much easier time training.
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Old 2007-02-08, 06:42   Link #34
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I'm pretty sure the fight is over, but I don't think Kakuzu is dead. I'm sure once Naruto-tachi have left he'll appear alive somewhere (alá Deidara). It wouldn't exactly be hard for Kishimoto to make up some ability with Kakuzu's hearts and all.

This was a good display of Naruto's strength, but Naruto just showing up and killing an Akatsuki member in one hit? I put more faith in Kishimoto than that. That was way too simple a conclusion to the fight for me to believe we've seen the last of Kakuzu.

In short, it wouldn't suprise me if Kakuzu's not dead and I'm willing to bet that at least one of Hidan and Kakuzu have only been taken out temporarily.
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Old 2007-02-08, 06:54   Link #35
elusive
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I think I figured the jutsu out:
The rasengan acts like the eye of a hurricane (or is it a tornado?) while the wind spreads out destroying whatever is caught inside the storm.

Kakuzu getting tricked was perfect. his only focus was NOT getting hit w/the justu. he stopped the clones last time and got blind sided. It was less of Kakuzu's stupidity and more of Naruto cleverness at using kage bunshin. The same way Shika can always catch people w/his shadow is not a bad reflection on his opponent but it's due to mastering a technique so that you can always succeed w/it.

Naruto will learn the 4th's Hiraishin to really make the wind shuriken undodgeable.

Naruto's speed has increased because when the hell did he create the bunshins that got behind kakuzu. No one saw it.

Last edited by elusive; 2007-02-08 at 07:07.
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Old 2007-02-08, 07:28   Link #36
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wow - what an amazing chapter

But it was quite predictable that naruto would make one clone creating rasenshuriken so that kakuzu assumes the clone to be the real one.
Meanwhile naruto himself attacks from behind.

But still quite impressive.
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Old 2007-02-08, 07:31   Link #37
Mr. Johnny 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elusive View Post
I think I figured the jutsu out:
The rasengan acts like the eye of a hurricane (or is it a tornado?) while the wind spreads out destroying whatever is caught inside the storm.

Kakuzu getting tricked was perfect. his only focus was NOT getting hit w/the justu. he stopped the clones last time and got blind sided. It was less of Kakuzu's stupidity and more of Naruto cleverness at using kage bunshin. The same way Shika can always catch people w/his shadow is not a bad reflection on his opponent but it's due to mastering a technique so that you can always succeed w/it.

Naruto will learn the 4th's Hiraishin to really make the wind shuriken undodgeable.

Naruto's speed has increased because when the hell did he create the bunshins that got behind kakuzu. No one saw it.
Ok first of all...to see the jutsu as an eye of a hurricane/tornado is something that indeed resembles it. Nice

And if i am correct...Kakuzu was superior in speed compared to Naruto. So he probably indeed increased his speed because the 3 distractions made the Shuriken within a second and attacked Kakuzu.

But if Naruto learns the Hiraishin...it would be pointless to use Rasenshuriken then. Because a kunai would be enough. Instantmovement and then hit your opponent with a nuke is rather unneccesary. Cuz right now even Naruto is damaged.

And for the other people..if you face a retard like Naruto. Then this tactic is something unexpected. It's like Naruto suddenly knows the answer of a very difficult test. Also the Sannin probably still have more experience.

Constantly on missions (even during war times) probably gave them a massive amount of experience. If Kakuzu was already wandering around then...it would probably mean that he had only a few battles and prevented other unneccesary ones. Besides in the Ninja War (Only Grass Country, Konoha, Iwa) nothing was said about the Waterfall village. (It may have been at peace for dozens of years)
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Old 2007-02-08, 07:40   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Wow, this is the first time I've seen you compliment Naruto's performance Lady Rave-chan . That aside I absolutely loved this chapter, which was a thousand time better than the previous chapter 340 disaster. Holy **** on a sandwich with a **** on top, how much power does that Rasenshuriken have? Not too keen on the name but whatever works.
amazing, just truly amazing. I mean just how much power does that Rasenshuriken have?
and I thought Desert Coffin was nasty and horrific, at least you still have a body left when
Gaara hits you with Desert Coffin.
Rasenshuriken just........just....wipes you off the face of the earth!

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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Wow, this is the first time I've seen you compliment Naruto's performance Lady Rave-chan . That aside I absolutely loved this chapter, which was a thousand time better than the previous chapter 340 disaster. Holy **** on a sandwich with a **** on top, how much power does that Rasenshuriken have? Not too keen on the name but whatever works.
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Originally Posted by chuckcsf View Post
Ghey! Nothing too spectacular. So again we go back to the question, what changed in Naruto? We've seen that soo many times where he tricks the opponent into attacking his clone thinking it's the real him then he surprises him. I don't think this will work on Sauske since he could probably see through his trick and he's too fast to be hit by that attack. Ofcourse the attack was pretty powerful and impresive and I guess Naruto did not get caught in the explosion but rather, was exhausted.
the answer is he tricked you didn't he?.....nobody knows when he'll play his tricks.
his so goofy with it, that you really don't know what do expect from him.
and thats why Neji couldn't beat him in season 1.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The attack is indeed spectacular. I'm not sure how it works, it seems the Wind Shurinken part is used to project the target away for a while until the Wind Rasengan explodes in a first blast. The Wind waves then come back toward the target to finish it.

On the other hand I was affraid that Naruto connecting with Kakuzu would happen that way. Kakuzu presented as a cunning ninja with tremendous experience... Felt for the easiest KB trick in the book.
Not only that but the guy who uses large elemental AOE attack as main offense and can separate his hearts so he wouldn't be killed by one single powerful attack suddenly stop using these abilities when Naruto appears.
Kishimoto makes good vilains but I would prefer to see them killed because the heros were smarter rather than the vilain becoming suddenly dumb.

Bleh enough whinning

Yes the Wind waves do come back toward the target to finish it, but it does with with the remaining Rasengun left, but because of the wind force constantly pushing it forwards and sucking everything in, it will go through the whole body instead of just impacting on the chest area, like it did when Naruto hit Kabuto with it while saving Tsunde..

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-02-08 at 08:28. Reason: Don't triple post
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Old 2007-02-08, 08:41   Link #39
Juruzu
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* the rasenshuriken sort of looks like a shield now.. xD a shield that can explode and kill lol.. and i think walking with the wind in ure hand sort of makes you faster..
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Old 2007-02-08, 08:55   Link #40
abazou
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It was said that Wind user techniques (Naruto) cant beat Fire user techniques (Sasuke) on the other hand wind makes fire stronger. So even if sharingan cant escape it... It wont need to in Sasuke's case.
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