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Old 2007-02-09, 16:05   Link #2021
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
Well, Subaru is already a Belkan user to start with, long before she joined the Long Arc team (or even met Nanoha). Though she admit having some interest in the Midchildan system, which is more suitable for aerial combat unlike the Belkan system (and she does long to be able to fly freely in the sky, just like Nanoha), her natural talents and fighting style are more geared towards the Belkan system.
Huh. That explains why the Knights are so fond of making 'ground' to stand on with their barriers during aerial combat.
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Old 2007-02-09, 17:06   Link #2022
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Well, in Flar's scenario, even without putting the alleged lineage into consideration, I'd expect to see Suzuka's mechanical leanings (as she indicated in s1) to lead her into improvising cybernetic weapons that are not powered by magic at all, and financed with the mights of Arisa and her own family's considerable wealth. (mecha in my Nanoha? Why does this sound dangeriously like the plot of Gun***...)
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Old 2007-02-09, 19:40   Link #2023
Estavali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Huh. That explains why the Knights are so fond of making 'ground' to stand on with their barriers during aerial combat.
Actually, to quote the manga, the difference lies mainly in the way attacks are made.

Midchildan: Relies on magical power to freely create various effects (including pink deathrays). Its main form of attack comprises of shooting, sniping, etc. Another characteristic is its high level of firepower.

Belkan: Uses magical power to reinforce the user's physical conditions and weapons, highly enhancing the user's combat abilities. However, this system is not good in areas that requires it to project magical power away from it (like firing deathrays and such).

Basically Midchildan specialise in long-range combat while Belkan is for melee. The long-range factor, coupled with high firepower, thus give the Midchildan system an edge when it comes to aerial combat.

(Also, if we look at A's, the above classification makes sense. The Knights are never seen firing any magical beams and such, relying mainly on melee to get things done. Even Vita's Schwalbe Fliegen (Swallow Flier) is a form of enhanced physical attack. Whereas Nanoha and Fate, despite adopting the Cartridge system, remain as true Mildchildan magi, since shooting spells, the trademark of the Midchildan System, were still their main form of attacks.)
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Old 2007-02-10, 00:33   Link #2024
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That's the neatest classification of Midchilda/Belka magic differences I've seen. I've always thought of the two like that, just never that eloquently XD

So:

-Midchilda > uses magic as primary means of attack, thus the emphasis on ranged and buster spells. Any melee combat would need spells to be effective.
-Belkan > uses magic to enhance physical combat ability; magic secondary in dealing damage at melee combat.

And it also explains the Cartridge system; since unlike Mid mages with their long range attacks that gives them time to charge the spell, in a melee combat situation the Belkan cartridge system gives you the quick boost of energy needed to cast powerful spells WHILE you exchange blows with the enemy, dispensing of the need to waste precious seconds in charging spells.

Btw, Nanoha and Fate also created "ground" to stand on whenever they fought, (or at least, in charging their weapons) long before A's, so it's not exactly a hallmark of the Belka magic system.

A thought on Fate though: despite being a Midchildan mage, Bardiche is actually more of an Armed Device, even before being upgraded, since it's initial form is a... bardiche, and armed devices are typically designed as weapons first, magic second. Of course, Bardiche would still be labelled as an intelligent device because for serious melee encounters, Fate has to rely on Scythe/Haken form, which forms a blade of magical energy, and being magical instead of being physical in nature labels Bardiche as an ID.

Another thought: Tiana's Cross Mirage is said to use the cartridge system. Being the only really firearm-like weapon in Nanoha, do you think Tiana uses the cartridges in very much like a conventional firearm would, i.e. shooting off one shot per cartridge?
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Old 2007-02-10, 01:19   Link #2025
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I think the identifying factor of an Intelligent Device would be a sophisticated AI, with a more or less well-defined personality of its own (though they aren't as "human" as an Unison Device).

I'm not sure about Armed Devices though...

As for Tiana's Cross Image, I think she could possibly use them like normal firearms, shooting magical bolts. The differences might be the effects of the bolts; they can be purely destructive or they be used to activate spells on impact (like the way the Virtues Tracer Barriers and Dominion Sealing Barriers are employed in the Chrno Crusade manga, act 32).

Btw, LoweGear, great analysis on the Cartridge system .

Last edited by Estavali; 2007-02-10 at 01:21. Reason: Add on
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Old 2007-02-10, 01:25   Link #2026
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My issue wasn't really with the AI though but the shape and magic usage... Afterall, even without Scythe/Haken form, Bardiche is still very much a battle-worthy weapon like most Armed devices. (Armed devices can have the sophistication of ID's... just look at how Signum talks to Laevatein).

Spells on impact? If they ever show that in Strikers Tiana will have become my favorite of the new cast (or if she knows Gun-Kata XD)
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Old 2007-02-10, 01:27   Link #2027
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Chrno Crusade's GOSPEL shots and DEMON shots imbues magic/ holy water and maybe soul into the projectiles. (this makes me wonder though as why don't they make phospherus HE shell variant for anti-personal purposes, or HEAP...)
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Old 2007-02-10, 01:58   Link #2028
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I don't buy that Belkan magic is specialized in close combat, only that the Knights themselves are.

After all, the Book of Darkness was based on and primarily knew and used Belkan magic, and it specialized in... well, not so much deathrays as giant death explosions. Sure its biggest bang was a Midchildan spell, but Diabolic Emission and Ragnarok Breaker aren't exactly weak.
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Old 2007-02-10, 02:00   Link #2029
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I just found a databook for Nanoha StrikerS
The most important thing i have noticed on it is the Name of Weapons

http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/01.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/02.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/03.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/04.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/05.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/06.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/07.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/08.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/09.bmp
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/ch45/10.bmp

Nanoha - Raging Heart Excellion (Raising Heart Exellion)
Fate - Bardiche Assault
Hayate - Schwertkreuz + Reinforce
Revolver Knucles(Glove) and Mach Calibur (Roller)
Cross Mirage (Double Handgun)
Kerykeion (The Orb on the Gloves)
Strada (Spear)

Last edited by IchiKyo; 2007-02-10 at 02:11.
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Old 2007-02-10, 02:08   Link #2030
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I don't buy that Belkan magic is specialized in close combat, only that the Knights themselves are.

After all, the Book of Darkness was based on and primarily knew and used Belkan magic, and it specialized in... well, not so much deathrays as giant death explosions. Sure its biggest bang was a Midchildan spell, but Diabolic Emission and Ragnarok Breaker aren't exactly weak.
Thing is though, most of those spells are probably spells learned by the Book of Darkness during its "travels"... we don't know which of those spells is truly Belkan ^^;;
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Old 2007-02-10, 02:09   Link #2031
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Yeah we do. They had triangular arrays. She uses circular diagrams when casting Midchildan spells, just like Midchildan mages. If she uses the original diagram type for one type of magic not her usual, I think it's safe to assume she does that in all cases, and that spells cast with a Belkan diagram are Belkan in origin.

Plus the Unison Devices were Belkan in origin in the first place and they're designed for spellcasting, not close combat.

I tend to think of Belkan system as not close-combat specialized but just favoring specialization in general. Midchildan mages like Fate and Chrono have a lot of variety, whereas Belkan mages focus on one thing- close combat for Signum and Vita, defensive support for Shamal, and nukes for YnS.
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Old 2007-02-10, 02:19   Link #2032
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*checks* Yup, I really did forget about that ^^;;;

Although, are we sure Unison devices in general are Belkan in origin?

I also like that classification for the Belkan system: emphasizing on specialization to bring out the full potential of each individual knight, whereas the Midchilda system likes to put all the eggs in one basket.

This classification is a bit more loose than the former though, since YnS has her own arsenal of melee spells (Black Impact), and Signum and Vita still have ranged spells (the former's various Dragon Flashes and Storm Falcon and Vita's Fliers).
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Old 2007-02-10, 02:23   Link #2033
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Yeah. Though it's to be expected that YnS can do anything she wants...
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Old 2007-02-10, 02:38   Link #2034
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... Except defying the orders of her Harisen-wielding Mistress Hayate :

Would be extremely awesome if it was discovered that theres a harisen-shaped Lost Logia, with the power to show up whenever stupid people need to get a good whacking
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Old 2007-02-10, 03:04   Link #2035
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Harisen Hayate... hohoho.

since I can dream...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pure fantasy in my head

Suzuka, how long till the Hilbert effect?
Give it two minutes.
Good…

This is the torch. The spuds are coming in a big wing formation, three levels deep and cover a square mile. I want the sparrows to fly high in order to peck at’em while the mainstay of our flock form into battle groups comprised of 6 zombies each as slaves with one MA as rear guard. Fire as soon as the spuds are within your outer circle and do not engage the hot potatoes, I repeat, do not engage the hot potatoes. Failure to do so will get your ass burnt in a magical way and faster than you can say “we’re going in jail dude”.

Haze 43 to Torch, who’s the zombies’ overlord, over.
Touch’ll be their brain, over.
Roger that Torch.

Can we really give’em a run for their money?
Only if they really believe in magic. Hilbert effect is ready by the way and radius is up to the horizon. Do your thing?
Yea…

“Torch here. Things will get a little’ bumpy when the disco light comes on, so hang on to your seats and don’t be a hero. I want ya’ll to form into formation ‘D’ and make a good bowl’o stew outta the spuds, then shake’em, stir’em and spill’em. They ain’t gonna befriend us today, hell, not on my watch.”

Haze 2 to Torch, you sure that you ain’t gonna eat it all?
Positive. We ain’t got the stomach for it and hot spuds will scar my intestine. Soiling the potato stew is jus fine.
Ok boss, over and out.

Let’er rip!
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Old 2007-02-10, 05:25   Link #2036
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Unison devices such as reinforce could be soo imba that its actuall a mixture of both ~ maybe hayate is Midchildan down in her core while reinforce is Belkan ~ 1 + 1 = hax combo!
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Old 2007-02-10, 08:01   Link #2037
Estavali
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Hmm... Kikaifan raises some good points. To them, I have come up with a possibly wild theory.

The classification which I posted came from Tiana, when she was talking to Subaru during the bath scene in chapter 5, page 7.

However, the Belkan system is know to be divided into 2 types: Ancient (which Hayate, Karim, Acoss and, I assume logically, the Knights use) and Modern (which seems to be a common type used in the TSAB, since their cadet training school allows cadets to select training weapons based on which system they're familiar with: Midchildan or Modern Belkan).

To begin with, I assume that Ancient Belkan users are very rare, as only Karim, Acoss and Hayate are considered to be users of rare abilities/technology; and assuming that Ancient Belkan is a forbidden or little-known school of magic.

If these assumptions are correct, then we can say that Tiana was referring to the Modern Belkan type, since it's highly possible she doesn't know about Ancient Belkan much. If so, we can also assume that Modern Belkan grew out from one particular branch of Ancient Belkan magic, aka the physical enhancement branch that the Knights employs.

By this line of thinking, we can thus believe that Ancient Belkan is a far more extensive school of magic, and which might explain why Reinforce have shooting and bombardment spells like Mysteltein and Ragnarok. As to why the Knights don't show any use of other forms of magic, it might be because that they either were not required to know (aka not programed to know) or they didn't feel the need (I support the former reason).

My 2 cents .
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Old 2007-02-10, 09:11   Link #2038
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Someone better translate chapter 5 stat, there seems to be a lot of info in there O_O

Modern Belka though... goes how far the TSAB has gone in the past decade, since in A's, Chrono and the rest of the TSAB were still quite dazzled by the appearance of Belka type technology, and most of them seem like it's the first time they've heard of it. Which means that maybe because of the rediscovery of Belka type knights with Hayate and the Wolkenritter (along with Karen and Acoss) that Modern Belka style magic was created as a choice for future TSAB cadets?

And I also support the theory that the Knights were created with a few limits on the magic they can cast, since it would've been expected that the Wolkenritter would fight as a cohesive group, rather than individually in serious situations.
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Old 2007-02-10, 10:12   Link #2039
Estavali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Modern Belka though... goes how far the TSAB has gone in the past decade, since in A's, Chrono and the rest of the TSAB were still quite dazzled by the appearance of Belka type technology, and most of them seem like it's the first time they've heard of it. Which means that maybe because of the rediscovery of Belka type knights with Hayate and the Wolkenritter (along with Karen and Acoss) that Modern Belka style magic was created as a choice for future TSAB cadets?
Hmm, possible too. Either this or that Modern Belkan has gone through some rather serious reformating throughout the years.

I think saying that the TSAB is generally clueless on Belkan magic might not be that accurate, since we weren't shown what the rest of the Bureau made out of the situation. Chrono and Yuuno did have some idea on the Belkan system, though they weren't able to identify it though its magical equations. This leads me to my conclusion: if Modern Belkan exists before the YnS incident, it would most certainly have gone through a thorough change of its structure. It is highly possible that the basic structure and spell formations remained unchanged but the more precise details are no longer the same.

In any case, we need more info here. Chapter 6, come quickly please!
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Old 2007-02-10, 10:30   Link #2040
Nightengale
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It's probably some form of retcon, but shouldn't Chrono know about Ancient Belka magic if Acoss was one? It's easily arguble that very few know about it by heart since even within TSAB, only a handful are genuinely capable of being AB-type mages. As shown by A's, the technology itself isn't something that can't be reproduced, so it should only be natural if a powerful technology that can be produced can't be utilized fully unless some specific mages, then revamping the technology with diffferent modern applications should work. It happens in real life all the time as well. The Malay's ancient art of building firm solid wooden houses without a single nail is long gone, but similar concepts with different executions are being applied with current technology. Besides, if TSAB has time to create experimental mage weapons that look impractical, it's only rational that it would implement and develop technologies that will improve the masses.

Well, generally we know too little about the technical details to be able to pinpoint a real distinctiveness between the different magic technology other than other fact Ancient Belka mages are really really rare and valuble human resources.

Makes one wonder if there'd be more types of magic technology introduced in StrikerS...Hm....Gear type Data System? :P
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