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Old 2007-02-15, 18:08   Link #41
Sazelyt
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
So, I wanted to ask about this weeks illustration. It was done in 30 minutes as I didn't want to spend more time for it.
Do you think it's ok if I deliver that kind of stuff and once in a while a good one?
Although the drawing is good, it doesn't really capture the essence of the chapter. You might use Kakashi thinking about Naruto and Sasuke (while providing simple images under each case) at one side, and shikamaru at the other side, to illustrate the generation change, each one walking their own path, etc...

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Originally Posted by Uh_huh View Post
Naruto does not surpass Kakashi.
If the translation is correct, according to Kakashi, he has already done that.
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Old 2007-02-15, 18:13   Link #42
abazou
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Yes Sasuke Finally!!
I wonder if he meant Naruto or Itachi!!
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Old 2007-02-15, 18:28   Link #43
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
EDIT: @Rurik: Sorry, while I was trying to post this message successfully, I missed your edit.
No prob..I just saw we were going to end up repeating ourself again...and also the forum had some technical difficulty, which also contributed for a late edit.

Moving on to more interesting things, I going to say that I feel happy that We can say the Kids have what it takes to defeat Akatsuki, I deeply hope that We don't see new Members of Akatsuki, and little by little Akatsuki its beaten. I once saw Akatsuki to be the Geney Ryodan of Naruto universe, super strong and intelligent People, but they are not like that to me anymore.

What I want to see is the Leader reaction and Plan, upon the News of 2 of its followers been Erased.

I think the sole point of this arc was made to show Narutos growth and Not on Akatsuki itself, reason maybe why Kishimoto didn't really gave too much importance on Kakuuzu and Hidan character development, which was ok for me, maybe in the case of Hidan his secret could be maybe revealed in Databooks. One thing I can say, is that I really Had some laugh at the interaction between Hidan and Kakuuzu.
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Old 2007-02-15, 18:33   Link #44
Sinaura
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So Naruto surpasses an MS kakashi huh? And is anyone else worried about a possible romance between Shikamaru and Kurenai because of his intent to protect the baby? Poor Temari.
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Old 2007-02-15, 18:37   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Sinaura View Post
So Naruto surpasses an MS kakashi huh? And is anyone else worried about a possible romance between Shikamaru and Kurenai because of his intent to protect the baby? Poor Temari.
i was the first to suggest it
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Old 2007-02-15, 18:39   Link #46
yinstro
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Good wrap up chapter, i think one of teh important things about this chapter was that they established that naruto,s generation are now the best6 of konoha, basically it is no longer teh case that you can expect the teachers to be greater than them, to save them, or the fact that whatever the main charachters do they are just lower level than thier older counterparts.

I wouldnt take naruto surpassing kakashi as a literal thing, in that its not like he beats kakashi in every category. There is still certain cases in which naruto may win, but naruto has surpassed kakashi in some ways. This doesnt mean kakashi is useless, but rather that naruto has come into his own, and in some ways is greater than kakashi.

Its interesting to note, that shika doesnt believe in sacrificing pieces, and that means he has to be even smarter.

Sasuke's non killing attitude is interesting, so was he trying to kill naruto and sakura, or merely provoking them to act. I think the implication is that this next arc will focus on naruto/sasuke, if so looks like akatsuki may just be the big end boss, we shall see.
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Old 2007-02-15, 18:49   Link #47
gibits
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For all of you who are unconvinced with Naruto surpassing Kakashi, ask yourself this:

"what would Naruto have to do for you to believe this statement"?

How about.....
Coming up with jutsu that blows Chidori out of the water? not enough?
How about beating someone who was beating (read: owning) Kakashi?
How about Kakashi personally saying it?

I mean really people, maybe you don't like the way to portrayed but it really should not be in doubt that Naruto> Kakashi (BTW Shika> Asuma) at this point.

With all this evidence you are still making excuses like: "Kakuzu got dumb", "Kakashi doesn't know what he's talking about", "making/having a new killer jutsu isn't all that great". You're poking holes at what Kishi clearly wants you to see: it's the new generation's turn to shine.

Next thing you know Naruto is destroying the universe with a completed Rasengan and haters will say: the universe got dumb.
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Old 2007-02-15, 19:10   Link #48
GrAYFoX
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
No, we haven't come there yet. There should still be a few months left from that amount. (2.5 years for training, maybe 1-2 months for the Gaara rescue arc, Sasuke scary arc and RasenShuriken arc).
I was recently re-reading the last chapters of part 1 to refresh my mind for shippuuden. I noticed that when Sakura was healing a fish over the watchful eye of the 5th, she said that Sakura has come so far in 3 months and had only seen something like this since Shizune. That would imply 3 months passed before naruto set out, which is in the same chapter, implying

3 months healing (as Neji and co were seriosly injured and were fine in this chapter)
2.5 training with Jiraiya
1-2 months recent events

So that would suggest sasuke's time is almost up (around a month or less left).

Secondly, I think the reason so many ppl have trouble accepting Naruto's accomplishments is because Kishimoto has fostered a mindset of animonsity and dissapointment towards this main character. Just look at Ino's recent comments when Naruto's first attempt failed (she is like the readers talking in this instance). If he was always successful throughout the series and cool like sasuke there would be no prob. It's like if you know a screw up in real life and one day you hear they acheived a great success, you would be skeptical to say the least.

In this way Kishi has created a very different main protagonist, to which it will take many more successes before ppl come around. Afterall its been years and if you are so set in your opinion of him, it will take more than 1 arc to change it. Just a thought
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Old 2007-02-15, 19:14   Link #49
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Orochimaru's sentence is rather interesting. Sasuke did NOT kill some unknown ninja grunts. I'm now much more convinced that Sasuke did not want to kill anyone from team-Yamato. He just acted like that in order to "cut the bonds" and to decieve Orochimaru. He knew that Orochimaru will stop him to fight them, and also he didn't want to gain MS by killing Naruto. It would not be logical that he wants to kill Konoha ninja while he didn't want to kill some noname losers. Also it's likely that he didn't tell Orochimaru about the method of getting the MS, in that case Orochimaru should have even forced him to kill Naruto just to get MS, so that Oro can have MS when he takes his body. And if he didn't tell Orochimaru about the most important thing, the power of the MS and the method to achieve it then it's highly probable that he just played the cold blooded killer but never meant to kill.
But even if that were not true, that last manga page means that Sasuke will be probably saved and will be on the good side in the future.
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Old 2007-02-15, 19:18   Link #50
gibits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrAYFoX View Post
Secondly, I think the reason so many ppl have trouble accepting Naruto's accomplishments is because Kishimoto has fostered a mindset of animonsity and dissapointment towards this main character. Just look at Ino's recent comments when Naruto's first attempt failed (she is like the readers talking in this instance). If he was always successful throughout the series and cool like sasuke there would be no prob. It's like if you know a screw up in real life and one day you hear they acheived a great success, you would be skeptical to say the least.

In this way Kishi has created a very different main protagonist, to which it will take many more successes before ppl come around. Afterall its been years and if you are so set in your opinion of him, it will take more than 1 arc to change it. Just a thought
I think what you said was reasonable. Naruto has disappointed me alot since part 2 started, but i know a turnaround when i see one.

Anyway, I think now would be a good time to switch to Sasuke, The last two pages are the perfect intro for a Sasuke arc. Also him not killing anyone..... makes me wonder if he will follow through with his vengeance. I mean Itachi is still his brother. If he has qualms about killing no name ninjas then I don't see him killing his brother with any certainty.
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Old 2007-02-15, 19:36   Link #51
Negs
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
I think what you said was reasonable. Naruto has disappointed me alot since part 2 started, but i know a turnaround when i see one.

Anyway, I think now would be a good time to switch to Sasuke, The last two pages are the perfect intro for a Sasuke arc. Also him not killing anyone..... makes me wonder if he will follow through with his vengeance. I mean Itachi is still his brother. If he has qualms about killing no name ninjas then I don't see him killing his brother with any certainty.

Man, I agree with you. It'd be an awesome change of pace if the next arc were to focus on sasuke. That way naruto and co. can experience almost instant powering up, once the focus shifts back onto them once the arc ends...
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Old 2007-02-15, 19:55   Link #52
billbrown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits
I mean really people, maybe you don't like the way to portrayed but it really should not be in doubt that Naruto> Kakashi (BTW Shika> Asuma) at this point.
Then I'm completely content with saying that the way it was portrayed was beyond sh!tty and that it didn't have to get done with brute force and much less a simple trick that's been viewed one too many times. Even you have to admit it was too generic, too easy.

Honestly if this is how easy it is to throw Kakashi away as a power to be reckoned with I don't know what to say.. I know he retains his lethality, but its not the same if the new generation simply surpasses him like this. All that Kakashi stood for, all his history and experience, all his acclaim as a ninja of ninjas just seems incredibly deflated and that's just a shame imo, Kakashi loses a lot of appeal for little gain in unique appeal for Naruto, as his newfound power didn't strike me as intriguing at all.
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Old 2007-02-15, 20:00   Link #53
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-Wow, so many people are dismissing Naruto's improvement that I'm left in disbelief that these are the words of human beings. "Kakuzu was handicaped due to plot and his intelligence sunk like the Titanic", "He can't be stronger than Kakashi because Kakashi has the Mongekyou Sharingan despite the fact that Kakashi himself has stated that he has become stronger than him" and my personal favorite "Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke x infinity". In all honesty, what more is it going to take to convince them? Does Naruto have to go up against a God, walk up to his face and defeat him by flicking him in the forehead? Geez, seems like there's no pleasing the audience when it comes to Naruto. You either love hm or hate him. *Sigh* whatever, I guess all good things need to coincide with the negative things.
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Old 2007-02-15, 20:07   Link #54
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibits View Post
For all of you who are unconvinced with Naruto surpassing Kakashi, ask yourself this:

"what would Naruto have to do for you to believe this statement"?

How about.....
Coming up with jutsu that blows Chidori out of the water? not enough?
How about beating someone who was beating (read: owning) Kakashi?
How about Kakashi personally saying it?

Next thing you know Naruto is destroying the universe with a completed Rasengan and haters will say: the universe got dumb.
I agree with what both you and GrAYFox said but I also have to say that Kishi did make the Naruto's change rather unconvincing. Naruto was facing a Kakuzu who was minus 2 hearts and still had to be saved by Kakashi and Yamato. And while this doesn't change the fact that he single-handedly defeated the Akatsuki member, it makes his victory seem less epic than it would've been if he had faced Kakuzu at full strength with no help. I'm pretty sure that Naruto is destined to fumble and bumble his way through the majority of his battles though. Still, there's no reason to say he hasn't grown when there was obvious improvement

On to the chapter:

The revelation about Kurenai's pregnancy is interesting, but it also means that anyone hoping to see Kurenai in action post-timeskip won't be getting their wish for a while. This even might be Kishi's way of "retiring" Kurenai's character. But hopefully, this isn't the case, and she won't just be limited to cameo roles of her with the kid.

I was surprised to see that Sasuke had knocked out but not killed all those ninja. It seems like he might still have morals left, especially since it seems like it would be easier to just kill opponents rather than subdue them. On that note, I also noticed that Kakashi landed the finishing blow on Kakuzu. It reminded me of comment Sazelyt made about the story avoiding having Naruto kill his opponents. Seems like he might be right. I didn't like Kakuzu grovelling before he died though.
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Old 2007-02-15, 20:40   Link #55
Souten no Seigyoku
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Well I guess kakashi finished off Kakazu and thats the end of the fighting. The rest of it and next weeks chapter will be a setup for the next arc. Perhaps another go at Sasuke? Or maybe they just mentioned him to show that he's also training and getting stronger.

Anyhoo, its gonna be another go at Sasuke or more training.
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Old 2007-02-15, 20:49   Link #56
MysticNinjaJay
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I don't know how interesting he is, but he was a nominee for the stupidest character in the story among all characters.
He was an idiot, but I liked his abilities.

Quote:
And, he still revealed more than what Asuma was allowed to.
Yes, that is unfortunate. Asuma also got the short straw when it came to handing out abilities.

Quote:
Although, at this point I think it is pretty clear that both Kakuzu and Hidan showed all they have.
It would be nice if Kishimoto showed more versatile characters. Ninjas like Gaara, Neji and Orochimaru for instance have very impressive abilities that made them the dynamic characters I would expect the elite ninja of Akatsuki to be.

Quote:
If Itachi uses super speed to use a jutsu, and achieves success, would that make Itachi great, or make the opponent idiot because of losing to such a simple trick that only involves high speed? Even Kakashi complimented Naruto regarding his speed (of thinking, of action, etc.)
There's a style to the way Itachi's abilities are handled. The old bait and switch routine that Naruto used on Kakuzu was lame.

Where talking about an S-class ninja who was capable of prolonging his life for generations (or centuries for all we know) and skilled enough to take on the 1st Hokage yet he fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book.

When Itachi baited Kakashi it was because he had blinding hand speed so fast, the Sharingan could not even keep up with it. And even still he did not actually defeat Kakashi with that move alone.

Naruto's victory was handled poorly.


Quote:
If achieving something even Yondaime couldn't able to succeed was unconvincing, then it is really impossible to find something to make someone convincing.
Powerful moves and skill are two different things. Are we really to believe that the ever clumsy Naruto is an overall better ninja than Kakashi at this point?

The elite ninja who's strategic planning rivals that of Shikamaru with the jutsu ability to much?

Watching Kakashi fight Itachi for the first time, even though he was being overpowered was like a game of chess ( the same can be said of his battle with Zabuza).

I just think Kishimoto his handling his main character poorly. He's giving him far more credit than his character is protraying that he deserves.

The way Naruto defeated Neji and Gaara were masterpieces of storytelling. The way Kishi under powered Kakashi and allowed Naruto to beat Kakuzu was weak.


Quote:
As you might know that the 3 years period is not over yet, so, what do you expect them to do, go to Hawai beaches and ejoy the sunlight instead of training?
Well still what is the point? Orochimaru was ready to take Sasuke's body before the timeskip and yet now this "training" that Sasuke was supposed to recieve where he was going to "obtain power in his own way" amounts to little more than fooling around since Sasuke has no plans to defeat Itachi with his own power.

I'm really hoping that Kishimoto makes something more of this. I liked that cursed Uchiha bloodline idea that was hinted at. The idea that Sasuke's training is pointless is very disappointing.

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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
Hidan killed Asuma, and Kakuzu was owning Kakashi, so I would not call it an "easy win".
Theri defeats were handed poorly. Kishi had a chance to use Asuma's death to make Hidan a huge obstacle to overcome and while I like Shikamaru avenging his sensei's death on his own, I think more could have been done with Hidan's character, explaining his immortality abilities etc.

Quote:
I've said this 3 times already, its the oldest trick in the book for a reason. This is what Naruto does, its what ninjas do. It would've out of character for Naruto to do otherwise.
Out of character to do what? I have no problem with him landing a shot in this way but shouldn't Kakuzu have 2 hearts left?

He just laid there in his crater will Kakashi finished him off. Kishi was doing well with his character up until that point.

Shikamaru using his blood to get Hidan to destroy a heart was ingenious and making him a tough opponent that even Kakashi could not beat without strong backup was great. But then the team should have worked together to finish him off instead of Naruto getting him with one bait and switch move.

Quote:
Hidan was one of the dullest characters yet. He was a one trick pony and that's it. Sasori was an interesting character with diabolic puppets and tragic past. Itachi is sourded in mystery and massacre. DD is ambiguously gay and has mouths on his hand (great for auto-fellatio). Those are interesting people. Hidan had a cool design with the greaser hair-do and scythe but he really was not interesting at all.
His design and abilities were interesting that's what I was saying. He was an obnoxious moron sure, but that immortality jutsu was cool and not enough was done with it.

Atleast we got to understand Kakuzu's ability.

Quote:
Did you see Kakuzu manhandling Kakashi? Yet Naruto was able to beat him with ease, I'd say that was convincing. Face it, you're a hater.
See what I wrote above.

Naruto overcoming his fear of Gaara and going all out to defeat him, in the way he did was impressive.

Naruto taking advantage of Jiraiya's training to defeat Neji was impressive.

Naruto screwing up his jutsu in one chapter, then beating Kakuzu with a bait and switch move was incredibly lame, made lamer by the idea that this puts him over Kakashi.

It's not hating it's just an observation. Naruto mastered a move with his shadow clones that Kakashi and Yamato taught him, which the 4th was unable to do, fine.

But the idea that he could have surpassed Kakashi still being as clumsy as he is is absurd. Naruto hasn't shown anything that suggests that he is half the ninja Kakashi is.

Kyuubi's chakra already made Naruto stronger than Kakashi. How does a powerful jutsu make him better than Kakashi?

Quote:
I never understood that either, my reasoning is that it gives Sasuke something to do, so he won't leave. There really is no reason for Oro to train him other than for plot purposes.
The only way I can rationalize this is if Orochimaru agreed to train him but also convinced him during that training that he had not surpassed Itachi and that he needed to sacrifice his body to give them both the edge to do what they cannot do separately.

I see this situation going one of two ways. Either Oro is going to get Sasuke's body, become this badass sharingan user and Naruto and co. are going to have to try to free him from Oro's possession or Sasuke is going to regain confidence in his own abilities and attempt to leave Oro.

Perhaps Sasuke is being trained so that oro, Kabuto and he can take out the other Akatsuki before merging to take out Itachi (I wonder where the leader fits into all of this?).



Quote:
I would like to know why when one character, like Shika or Sasuke does something everyone gives them due credit. But when Naruto comes around and does the same thing (sometimes better) people give doubt him? Is it because you expect more from the main character? Are you a hater?
I don't think Rurik is hating on Naruto. Like myself I am betting he does not like the way his development is being handled.

There were times where I really liked the direction Naruto's character was going and how he was progressing. He has not been doing well in the new arc.

First it is revealed that during all of his time with Jiraiya he has not obtained any significant skill (except for "that jutsu" which was never revealed) and infact has de-evolved because he has less control over Kyuubi.

The only good that came out of that is we got to see a freaky monster battle between Naruto and Oro as well as Naruto's realization that he has to keep the beast within under control and rely on his own power.

He was useless during the first encounter with Akatsuki. Sakura and the old woman defeated the cool Akatsuki while Kakashi took out the gay Akatsuki (with a nice Mangekyo Sharingan that was not used during his fight with Kakuzu).

When he did attempt to help out he used his demonic fox powers to kill a decoy.

The elemental jutsu angle that was used to explain his new jutsu was nice but he defeat of Kakuzu was out of place.

I'm just glad these guys are dead, I don't care about them I want to know more about what the leader is planning, what Oro and Sasuke are doing as well as where Itachi and Kisame are and how they play into the new arc.
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Old 2007-02-15, 21:09   Link #57
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by ShurikenJay View Post


Where talking about an S-class ninja who was capable of prolonging his life for generations (or centuries for all we know) and skilled enough to take on the 1st Hokage yet he fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book.
You know sometime people forget the simplest thing, just because he is an s-class ninja that doesn't mean that simplest thing won't work on him. They are only human after all.
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Old 2007-02-15, 21:55   Link #58
xPresagio
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The chapter in itself was good, but the pacing surely could have been a lot better.

Some other thoughts:

-No further background for Hidan and Kakuzu. Aside of killing Asuma, they pretty much ended being just an extra obstacle, nothing else. Even worse that the kill was done by the less intelligent of the pair, while the "experienced" one died miserably without even hurting someone.

-Indeed, a massive technique wasn't able to completely finish Kakuzu. Since it's obvious that Sasuke will be a lot stronger that these petty Akatsuki, then there is a chance that Naruto actually uses and hit him with it.

-Neither Naruto nor Sasuke killed their enemies. Understandable, given the target demographic for the manga, but disappointing nonetheless. It -does- imply that Sasuke isn't following Oro blindly. (albeit he is still fulfilling Itachi's desires).

-The speech from Kakashi was indeed good. Hopefully will be a lot better in the Anime, with music in the background.

-Wow, Kakashi's stamina/chakra reserves increased a LOT. He managed to use Raikiri around 6 times, surpass the speed of Kakuzu jutsus, summon Pakkun, while having the Sharingan active for long time, and still didn't collapse or even look "almost exhausted".

Clearly, Kishi still has important plans for him, with at the very least, a grand 1-1 fight (Kabuto, Itachi, Obito?) ahead.

Given the short amount of important enemies that remain alive, that also means that there will be even LESS chances for the new generation (the 9 + team Gai) , to have 1-1 confrontations. Bad omen for those with almost no appearance (TenTen, Shino, Ino).

-The chances of Kurenai to keep fighting pretty much dropped to zero. She was supposed to be the best Genjutsu user aside of Itachi/Madara. There seems to be a pattern here:
*Just wen Azuma revel to have the exact same chakra nature than Naruto, dies
*Kurenai, who has the ability to trap enemies with ilusions, like Itachi (Madara, AL?) gets pregnant.
*A weapons specialist (TenTen), rarely appears, in times when enormous area-effect attacks start to be more common and desired.
*A commander of hundred of bugs that eats chakra, can track/spy from distance, create bunshins without requiring much stamina/chakra to do it, is always busy somewhere else.

-Who will be the leader of Hinata + Shino + Kiba team? And any Promotions?

-Good to see Oro and friends again. I really would like to see how things are going on their side. Will Kabuto and Sasuke just accept that Oro gets a new body?

-Sasuke didn't use his "that jutsu" (unless it equals to TenTen technique, that's it)


And more importanly.. where is Jiraya !?
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Old 2007-02-15, 21:59   Link #59
Rurik
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Originally Posted by billbrown View Post
Honestly if this is how easy it is to throw Kakashi away as a power to be reckoned with I don't know what to say.. I know he retains his lethality, but its not the same if the new generation simply surpasses him like this. All that Kakashi stood for, all his history and experience, all his acclaim as a ninja of ninjas just seems incredibly deflated and that's just a shame imo, Kakashi loses a lot of appeal for little gain in unique appeal for Naruto, as his newfound power didn't strike me as intriguing at all.
YOu know man that post was excellent and those are my exact feeling towards Kakashi comments of Naruto Surpassing him; is not that Naruto hasn't become good, excellent, kick ass, whatever you want to call him, is the fact that how Gaining a Jutsu (even if its the mother of all Jutsus) became the reason of Naruto surpassing Kakashi, Kakshi has a lot to offer in his long history as a NInja (we are talking more some 25 Years of experience) and this revelation, is really not convincing when you take in consideration, all of what Kakashi is.

I feel a little bit disappointed, that so many people here have accepted Kakashi comments with happiness and open arms without even having one ounce of thought of what Kakashi is. IMO, Kishimoto just couldn't handle very well what he was trying to say or acomplish here, ending up with some people either disgusted or not convinced about what Kakshi said.
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Old 2007-02-15, 22:04   Link #60
gibits
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Honestly I can't say I'm a big fan of how Kishi showed Naruto's progress, but you can't really deny that Naruto has gotten alot stronger, and that he is more powerful than Kakashi.

If anyone's IQ dropped for plot reasons it was Naruto's. Kishi felt it was important to show that Naruto was still Naruto, and made him mess up his first attempt. I really think Naruto should've just finished off Kakuzu on his first try. THAT would have been convincing. But Kishi felt this was more "in character", which is odd since we keep hearing about how Naruuto is now a "totally different ninja" now (from Yamato).
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