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Old 2007-02-15, 22:58   Link #61
Uh_huh
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
If the translation is correct, according to Kakashi, he has already done that.


I do not hate Naruto, but Kishimoto has yet to shown that Naruto has truly become a formidable opponent for Kakashi. This is just another plot device to make Naruto's growth seemingly vast. In essence, this is a variable repeat of when he first learned the Rasengan. He has only learned an amazing jutsu, yet he did not improve much on any other aspects of his skills.

Whereas Saskue seems to have gained a wealth of new skills, Naruto continues to rely on his shadow clones usage + a high power jutsu. I would like to see more versatility in Naruto's abilities.
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Old 2007-02-15, 23:18   Link #62
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by xPresagio
Given the short amount of important enemies that remain alive, that also means that there will be even LESS chances for the new generation (the 9 + team Gai) , to have 1-1 confrontations. Bad omen for those with almost no appearance (TenTen, Shino, Ino).
It kind of concerns me too. There hasn't been a new non-Akatsuki enemy since Kimimaro. Now three out of the nine Akatsuki members are defeated. I hope they don't introduce any new members after Tobi since that would make fighting against them almost pointless if they just simply replace members every time one dies. I don't have any concerns about the length of the story since it took over two years (in real world time) just to kill 3 Akatsuki but it does mean that they have to through great lengths to extend fights and keep the Akatsuki alive. And because there are so few villains but lots of good guys (with new ones such as Sai and Yamato introduced) not every character gets to see action. That's why you have Chouji and Ino sitting on the sidelines. Looks like they might be getting ready to switch focus back to Oro and Sasuke. However, I don't expect to see a real confrontation with Sasuke until much further down the road.

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Who will be the leader of Hinata + Shino + Kiba team? And any Promotions?
Good question. Team members sometimes travel with different squads though. So one or more members of Team 8 might accompany Team 7 on future missions. The next arc should feature them too, seeing as they are the only rookie team that hasn't seen any action post-timeskip. As for promotions, neither Naruto or Shikamaru were awarded promotions despite each defeating an Akatsuki member. Looks like you have to go by the book and test to become a chuunin or whatever process it is they use to select jounin. But seriously, it's kind of odd that Naruto keeps being sent on S-rank missions and still remains a genin.

offtopic: I just saw an American Naruto toy commerical for the first time. It featured some kid dressed as Sasuke fighting a guy dressed a Zabuza. "Zabuza" was swinging an authentic plastic zanbato while "Sasuke" threw a plastic shuriken which defeated Zabuza. After which Sasuke exclaimed "Victory is mine!".
Classic stuff. I laughed for about 5min straight. I found myself wanting to go out and buy the set though
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Old 2007-02-16, 04:13   Link #63
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Originally Posted by Uh_huh View Post


I do not hate Naruto, but Kishimoto has yet to shown that Naruto has truly become a formidable opponent for Kakashi. This is just another plot device to make Naruto's growth seemingly vast. In essence, this is a variable repeat of when he first learned the Rasengan. He has only learned an amazing jutsu, yet he did not improve much on any other aspects of his skills.

Whereas Saskue seems to have gained a wealth of new skills, Naruto continues to rely on his shadow clones usage + a high power jutsu. I would like to see more versatility in Naruto's abilities.
I would agree on the sentiments above.

Naruto has gained a unique jutsu, but it's an evolutionary jutsu rather than a revolutionary jutsu. While it's immensely powerful, they whole execution of it was rather tame.

In the manga, Naruto has mainly won his victories from a disadvantaged position, as an underdog. In the past Naruto would use his last ounce of energy to save those who mattered. This time round however, he's defeated an opponent while not necessarily "dumbed down" but most definately weaker than he originally was. Add the fact that Naruto had four people to back him up in case something bad happened, it made for a somewhat one-sided encounter and climax to a what was an interesting battle.

For sure it does highlight Naruto's growth, but his battle tactics have become even more one-dimensional than that prior to the time-skip: Kage-bunshin + Rasengan = Defeated Enemy.

This is Kishimoto's fault.

Maybe he is getting bored of "Naruto" and wants to write "Sasuke", if he does it would be a disappointing end to what has been a very good manga.
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Old 2007-02-16, 04:16   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post

The Uchiha boy also scares me... those ninjas weren't the ones he wants to kill!?
I'm not sure where you get the plural from, I'm pretty sure he's just talking about Itachi. If he would have been talking about more than one person he'd most likely have used 奴ら instead of 奴.

In other news, I agree wholeheartedly with ShirukenJay. I can accept two Akatsuki members dying, and I can accept that Shikamaru and Naruto doing them in, but I've got a hard time accepting that they couldn't put up a good fight. They weren't in Sasori's league at all in that department. And I think it's bizarre that we haven't had Hidan's ability explained to us, are we just supposed to accept it as is? That's about the only thing that makes me cling to the hope of seeing Hidan again.
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Old 2007-02-16, 04:56   Link #65
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All I know is the series is going to get A LOT more interesting from here on out. So many things have yet to be revealed and Sasuke and Naruto will only get stronger and more fun to see advance.

I really don't care if Naruto advances slower because I know in the end he's going to do something spectacular, a WTF moment almost. In the Valley of the End arc I had that WTF moment where Naruto went into nine tails mode and then Sasuke went into Curse mode lvl 2 or w/e it was. Twas awesome.

So I know that there will be more moments where we get to see OMGWTFBBQ moments of unleashing of awesome power.

I dunno about everyone else, but I cant think to myself that I'm disappointed with each new chapter...because I cant be...I don't know whats going to happen next which makes me glad about the chapter when it comes out.

I enjoy reading the Manga and thats about all there is too it.
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Old 2007-02-16, 05:15   Link #66
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Ooooo Sasuke is back and he looks nice too.

And yes, his appearance is pretty much the only thing at this time that can make me read a chapter of Naruto. Sad? Yes. Shallow? For sure. Understandable? Definately.

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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
I just don't understand how Sasuke shows up in one frame and everyone doubts the good guys' strength.
Simply put, that's just one of Sasuke's many powers. ;P
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Old 2007-02-16, 07:36   Link #67
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i'm interested with the fact that kishi refuse to turn sasuke into a really bad/evil character. Sasuke didnt kill any one of the defeated shinobi just proved it! i think this is a strong hint to us that sasuke will comeback to konoha someday!

As for the chapter, does everyone satisfy with the king revelation? i dont think so!! after being hype up about the king, *theres many thread about it in many forums in the net*, that the answer we gat? kishi must be kidding!!

About the pregnancy of kurenai, many fans have foreseen it , so its no suprise!! so, in conclusion, this chapter is a bit frustrating!!
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Old 2007-02-16, 08:22   Link #68
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personally, i dont understand how people can spend hours arguing over power levels... but the the fighting has never appealed to me much, its the characters that i love, and i loved this issue. Finally some resolution and character development. Kurenai is pregnant, how tragic and beautiful at the same time. I just hope the manga is ending soon... i hope this will be the last arc coming up. Everything seems so final. seriously tho... 2 years just to kill off 3 akatski?? wtf??
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Old 2007-02-16, 08:30   Link #69
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
It isn't surprising to start seeing more of Sasuke's true strength. Considering his goal (which right now is more important than Naruto's goal), he is going to need to be impossibly strong to defeat his brother who is arguably the 'ultimate' ninja in the series now with the 4th dead and the AL's powers unknown.

I am fairly curious as to how the series will go from here. The story needs to focus a bit on team Orochimaru whom for most parts were having appearances. It would be nice to see them joining the fight against Akatsuki although it would be for their own selfish reasons.

Still think Kakazu got killed retarded though; but I guess there is no more use arguing about it as both he and possibly Hidan are gone for good.
I don't want to start a big argument about this now, but I couldn't post this in the previous thread:

All of the people who think that he acted retarded seem to miss something. When someone is being totally overpowered, he doesn't look good, cunning or strong. He simply loses. That's how it works in real life and that probably is how it works in this manga.

I for one are happy to see naruto finish up with an enemy without looking like a mormon...err..moron. Sorry =( He finally got this feeling you got with sasuke pretty much from the beginning: he's strong.
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Old 2007-02-16, 09:30   Link #70
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@Note about Naruto defeating Kakazu
I'm pretty sure this is the first time Kakazu fought a "Naruto-type" character + abilities. So, even with his vast experience if he haven't fought someone with such similar abilities then it would kinda useless in some levels.


On Topic:
Sasuke arc? Interesting to see there's some "light" in Sasuke's being.
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Old 2007-02-16, 10:11   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Lemartes View Post
I don't want to start a big argument about this now, but I couldn't post this in the previous thread:

All of the people who think that he acted retarded seem to miss something. When someone is being totally overpowered, he doesn't look good, cunning or strong. He simply loses. That's how it works in real life and that probably is how it works in this manga.

I for one are happy to see naruto finish up with an enemy without looking like a mormon...err..moron. Sorry =( He finally got this feeling you got with sasuke pretty much from the beginning: he's strong.
Kakuzu didn't really get overpowered; he got tricked in the most retarded of ways that completely goes against the character he was portrayed as before Naruto came into the scene. You can excuse him for not knowing how Naruto fight and nearly getting killed the first time; but coming out from that he should had known waaaaaaaaaaay better.

People don't seem to understand that this wasn't a 1 on 1 fight; but a 1 on many fight. Kakuzu specialises in wide destruction jutsus and he is fighting someone who can do the same, if not more than him. However, Kakuzu doesn't have any one else on his side to worry about. Logic would dictate to attack the other people who he, I and everyone else on this forum knows can't defend against his attacks either forcing Naruto to watch them die (which we all know he won't since he already saved them with Yamato), or to let the real Naruto jumped into the open to save them which sooner or later will give Kakuzu the opening he needs to win the fight. Yes, Kakuzu doesn't have an endless supply of chakra; but he didn't have to. Even ignoring this, there was absolutely no reason for Kakuzu to leave himself totally defenseless knowing that there are ninjas out there in the vicinity who already destroyed his hearts and can easily finish the job if given the chance.

Naruto's strength is not in question here, nor his tactics and skills. It is simply the way how Kishimoto dumbed a ninja like Kakuzu who should had known waaaaaaaaay better.

Have everyone noticed though that out of the akatsuki members that died so far, we haven't seen their ultimate jutsus? Sasori let himself be killed before revealling his 2 most powerful jutsus. Hidan, well speak for himself; and Kakuzu still had his real heart and own jutsus that he didn't use (he was using the hearts/jutsus of others). Would this trend be continued?
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Old 2007-02-16, 10:52   Link #72
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Hahahaha Kurenai really is pregnant... Cant wait to see Naruto's new completed jutsu and Naruto vs Sasuke. Now that we seen people from Konoha kill so many Akatsuki members, maybe next we ll see Orochimaru's team kill a Akatsuki member either Orochimaru or Sasuke. Thats why Kishi showed the last part of Sasuke training, maybe.
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Old 2007-02-16, 11:07   Link #73
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
Logic would dictate to attack the other people who he, I and everyone else on this forum knows can't defend against his attacks either forcing Naruto to watch them die (which we all know he won't since he already saved them with Yamato), or to let the real Naruto jumped into the open to save them which sooner or later will give Kakuzu the opening he needs to win the fight. Yes, Kakuzu doesn't have an endless supply of chakra; but he didn't have to. Even ignoring this, there was absolutely no reason for Kakuzu to leave himself totally defenseless knowing that there are ninjas out there in the vicinity who already destroyed his hearts and can easily finish the job if given the chance.

Naruto's strength is not in question here, nor his tactics and skills. It is simply the way how Kishimoto dumbed a ninja like Kakuzu who should had known waaaaaaaaay better.

Attacking the others would'nt be a prudent tactic for Kakuzu considering that this would cause him to take his attention off Naruto leaving himself open for attack. You could say otherwise about Ino and Chouji, but Yamato and Kakashi aren't rookies and aren't innocent bystanders that Kakuzu could exploit as hostages. Attacking them and bringing them into the fight would've just created unecessary trouble for Kakuzu.

Kakuzu wasn't retarded, he was fighting defensively. He learned from his first mistake and adjusted, however Naruto had already accounted for this. His main flaw was that he tried to fight Naruto head on with power rather than using deception and cunning. In situation like that, a ninja like Oro or Itachi would've used bunshin of their own or at least have been prepared to use a kawarmi. Given the situation, they might've simply retreated. It seems like more of a matter of pride that got him killed not necessarily dumbness, though it is still a less than satisfactory defeat

I'll also give kudos to Naruto for using a minimal amount of clones. Naruto could've easily created dozens or even hundreds of clones and rushed at Kakuzu. However, in seeing this Kakuzu might've been overwhelmed and changed his tactics or decided to retreat. By using only 3 clones at a time, Naruto kept Kakuzu thinking that he was still in control of the fight.

Quote:
Have everyone noticed though that out of the akatsuki members that died so far, we haven't seen their ultimate jutsus? Sasori let himself be killed before revealling his 2 most powerful jutsus. Hidan, well speak for himself; and Kakuzu still had his real heart and own jutsus that he didn't use (he was using the hearts/jutsus of others). Would this trend be continued?
Sasori had two additional scrolls which might've contained more puppets. But they could've just been sealing scrolls or contract scrolls like Jiraiya has. These don't do anything in battle. Hidan's voodoo jutsu was his ultimate jutsu there's no hint that he has any other ability. Kakuzu as well didn't seem to have an ultimate jutsu. His special ability was being to use all five elements and wield them at the same time. If he did have an ultimate attack, it would probably involve all 5 elements and he lost the ability to use all of them at the beginning of the fight.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2007-02-16 at 11:25.
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Old 2007-02-16, 11:16   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Sasori had two additional scrolls which might've contained more puppets. But they could've just been sealing scrolls or contract scrolls like Jiraiya has. These don't do anything in battle.
I could be mistaken, But I think Sasori implied that his 100 Puppet trick was his ultimate attack or most powerful Trick.
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Old 2007-02-16, 11:27   Link #75
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The only interesting things this chapter was that Asuma has a son. And that Sasuke isn't really following Orochimaru's intentions. I personally don't think Kishimoto did a very good job in showing how nartuo go 'stronger' than kakashi. Specially since Sakura vs Sasori was a much more impressive battle.

The Sasuke angle was an interesting reminder that Sasuke's still too selfish to submit to anyone (that includes naruto, oro, and itachi). This kinda reminds me back to when sasuke was still cool. He had the curse seal and surpressed it with his own will power just so he could fight how HE wanted to. That was cool. Maybe this new sasuke will do something cool like completly defying oro's possesion jutsus or something, cuz all of his exploits after he learned chidori sucked. The battles might have been cool, but sasuke was not an impressive character.
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Old 2007-02-16, 12:41   Link #76
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Originally Posted by ShurikenJay View Post
There's a style to the way Itachi's abilities are handled. The old bait and switch routine that Naruto used on Kakuzu was lame.

Where talking about an S-class ninja who was capable of prolonging his life for generations (or centuries for all we know) and skilled enough to take on the 1st Hokage yet he fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book.

When Itachi baited Kakashi it was because he had blinding hand speed so fast, the Sharingan could not even keep up with it. And even still he did not actually defeat Kakashi with that move alone.

Naruto's victory was handled poorly.
I wonder what Itachi used against Kurenai with the exploding bunshin, can it be the same old bait/switch routine?

Didn't the highly skilled Jiraiya, who might have deserved a place among s-ranks if he were to be an outlaw, fall for one of the simplest tricks, the seduction trick?

For the Itachi vs Kakashi case, mainly because Itachi was not skilled enough to use a very powerful move at light-speed, does not mean Naruto had to act the same... Or mainly because Itachi preferred to not use a good jutsu at high speed (in order to ???) does not mean Naruto should have acted the same way. Itachi combined his signature move, sharingan, with his speed to overpower his opponents, and Naruto used his signature move, kage bunshin (and related techniques), with his speed to overpower his opponents. The only difference here is one is Itachi, the person *you expect to succeed*, and the other is Naruto, the person *you expect to fail*. If you can get rid of your superstition, you might be able to re-evalutate that attack.

And I truly believe that you should really get over this.

Quote:
Powerful moves and skill are two different things. Are we really to believe that the ever clumsy Naruto is an overall better ninja than Kakashi at this point?

The elite ninja who's strategic planning rivals that of Shikamaru with the jutsu ability to much?

Watching Kakashi fight Itachi for the first time, even though he was being overpowered was like a game of chess ( the same can be said of his battle with Zabuza).

I just think Kishimoto his handling his main character poorly. He's giving him far more credit than his character is protraying that he deserves.

The way Naruto defeated Neji and Gaara were masterpieces of storytelling. The way Kishi under powered Kakashi and allowed Naruto to beat Kakuzu was weak.
The ever clumsy Jiraiya was most probably better than Kakashi, when he was young/er. So, is this Jiraiya's fault to be better than Kakashi? Or, is it Naruto's fault that Kakashi has felt that Naruto has surpassed him? Oro was much more intelligent than Jiraiya, yet they are about the same level.

You can use the following as supporting points: Naruto has at least double the chakra (plus Kyuubi chakra), he can gain speed beyond Kakashi's with a little help from Kyuubi, he has an incredibly powerful incomplete move, that is beyond what Kakashi's Raikiri can do, and he has enough strength to use a move that Sharingan can do nothing about.

And, if you wait from Naruto a chess/shogi game, good luck, it will never happen. You can barely handle a not very intelligent character winning with pure strength, you cannot handle an intelligent character that has enough chakra capacity to take on all the powerful ninjas in the world alone, and can still win.

Quote:
Well still what is the point? Orochimaru was ready to take Sasuke's body before the timeskip and yet now this "training" that Sasuke was supposed to recieve where he was going to "obtain power in his own way" amounts to little more than fooling around since Sasuke has no plans to defeat Itachi with his own power.
Oro was not patient and durable enough to wait for Sasuke's arrival. So, he failed. And, they have 3 years left to do something.

Let me first remind you that Itachi was probably as strong as Oro when he was Sasuke's current age. And, Oro, who put his faith in Sasuke, as the man who can surpass Itachi, wouldn't mind training Sasuke with the hopes of helping him reaching Sasuke's level before the time expires.

And, as you might know that, Sasuke didn't initially go to Oro, just so he can spend highly pleasurable nights with Oro. He wanted to become stronger, strong enough to beat Itachi alone, on his own power. Even though, he realized he cannot do alone, do you really think he would stop training?

Let's look at from both Sasuke's point of view, and Oro's point of view. First, Sasuke is most probably thinking like this: "I will try to close the gap as much as possible, and in the case that I cannot close that gap (which is highly probable), I will not mind giving my body to Oro." Now for Oro, to successfully do his body exchange, he needs complete surrenderence from his future host. Do you really think, Sasuke will surrender without reaching as far as he can go? Most probably, you haven't really understood Sasuke's character. Secondly, for Oro, do you think that he would have desired something more than preparing his future host to satisfy his demands completely - meaning training it to the level that he can get a complete body when he transfers?

Also, I haven't included Akatsuki, but, it is even possible that Oro didn't want to waste a single second in preparing Sasuke for future battles, as even though they may not be the one to initiate those battles, they may be the one facing unwillingfully against those opponents. And, in that case, it is always better to be ready.

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The idea that Sasuke's training is pointless is very disappointing.
Based on the points I gave above, I really consider this claim to be groundless.

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Originally Posted by GrAYFoX View Post
3 months healing (as Neji and co were seriosly injured and were fine in this chapter)
2.5 training with Jiraiya
1-2 months recent events

So that would suggest sasuke's time is almost up (around a month or less left).
I haven't checked that, but, even in this case, they still have 1-2 months left, which should be enough, at least for Naruto, to learn a few more highly useful things.

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Originally Posted by ShikaShika View Post
In other news, I agree wholeheartedly with ShirukenJay. I can accept two Akatsuki members dying, and I can accept that Shikamaru and Naruto doing them in, but I've got a hard time accepting that they couldn't put up a good fight. They weren't in Sasori's league at all in that department.
Unfortunately, without having such emotional background on a fight (as in Sasori's fight), your expectations might have hard time matching up with the reality. And by the way, Sasori's fight was plotified at the end, the way he died is one of the worst and unmeaningful deaths ever by a strong character. And, I haven't even forgotten the fight between an Akatsuki and a Kage (Deidera and Gaara), and the way Akatsuki was *plot-forced* to win that fight.

Quote:
And I think it's bizarre that we haven't had Hidan's ability explained to us, are we just supposed to accept it as is? That's about the only thing that makes me cling to the hope of seeing Hidan again.
Maybe, because Kishi didn't want to waste an extra chapter on the past of someone hanging around the low tens of the IQ meter, who might even be expected to not have a clear understanding of his own past.

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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
People don't seem to understand that this wasn't a 1 on 1 fight; but a 1 on many fight. Kakuzu specialises in wide destruction jutsus and he is fighting someone who can do the same, if not more than him.
I think the last thing he would want other than getting killed there, is to kill Naruto and then getting tortured and killed by the Akatsuki Leader. And, any kind of wide destruction had some possibility of irreversibly eliminating Naruto with the others there.

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2007-02-16 at 13:01. Reason: More comments...
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Old 2007-02-16, 12:47   Link #77
tatami
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and on the very high end orochimaru will waste a lot of time to train that body...even if oro s senses are perfect he can predict attacks and so if the body cant react in time it would be deadly for him...think about 30 year old soul ind 3 year old baby s body...even if you know how to run that body wont allow you...simple as that.
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Old 2007-02-16, 13:07   Link #78
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I don't know I actually thought this showed alot of smarts on naruto's part. He made his clones use the tech. to get Kakuza to believe that the clone was naruto since the clone had that whirl wind shuriken thing. He then went for the obvious target. This was Kakuza's mistake. He either did not believe Naruto could have done the technique a third time or thought only a fool would risk his own body by disguising it as a clone. Kakuza did not become retarded. He just underestimated Naruto, since at this point he believed that Naruto was reckless. I think this actually shows that Naruto has grown, which I thought was good. Sure I thought the fight was a bit short, but then one would expect Naruto to be able to defeat a person faster then Sakura. The technique is only half way completed so it'll be interesting to see what the completed version is.

I think the best scenes though were with Shikamaru. We now know who the king is and I'm not surprised I though Kish. made it obvious from the beginning. It's cool to see that Sasuke isn't totally controlled by Oro. So I guess the only Akat. left are Itachi, Akat. Leader, Tobi, Kisame, the chick with the clay, the venus fly trap dude, and the person with the flower in hair. Then there is still Oro.
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Old 2007-02-16, 13:19   Link #79
ShikaShika
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Unfortunately, without having such emotional background on a fight (as in Sasori's fight), your expectations might have hard time matching up with the reality. And by the way, Sasori's fight was plotified at the end, the way he died is one of the worst and unmeaningful deaths ever by a strong character. And, I haven't even forgotten the fight between an Akatsuki and a Kage (Deidera and Gaara), and the way Akatsuki was *plot-forced* to win that fight.
I certainly have no problem what so ever with Sasori's death (other than the 'he wanted to die' thing so that Kishimoto could excuse two chicks beating a guy). I loved the image of his parents stabbing him as a homage the memory of how he used to make the puppets hold him, that was a very nice moment.

But I don't really see the point about an emotional fight, why can't we expect more out of Kishimoto even though we might not delve into the sad backgrounds of various characters? The way Naruto fooled Kakuzu was simply too unimaginable, I can't believe that's supposed to be a plot twist worthy of chapter number 342.

I don't really understand your point about Deidara's win either. Gaara didn't lose because he was stupid but because Deidara was smart. The same can't be said for Kakuzu unfortunately.

I guess we all value different fights differently, but for me these two coppout fights were something of a lowpoint in the series so far...
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Old 2007-02-16, 13:29   Link #80
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Fat Warlord
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Should we expect Kyuubi Naruto anytime soon?
Sinaura is offline   Reply With Quote
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