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Old 2007-02-16, 21:39   Link #1
MysticNinjaJay
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[manga] Naruto's "Real Body"

I've noticed that Kishimoto seems to be contradicting his story when it comes to the nature of Kagebunshin no jutsu.

When this jutsu was first introduced it was said that unlike Bunshin no jutsu where there is a real ninja and fake illusions casted by that ninja, Kagebunshins
are all real copies of the ninja with chakra evenly distributed between each clone.

It was shown that when a Kagebunshin was attacked they would disappear until there was only one user left and at that point the jutsu is dispelled and the remaining clone is the real ninja.

Kagebunshin is a jounin level move and since it is a kinjutsu (forebidden technique) only a select few ninja can use the jutsu and are aware of its true nature, Naruto being able to make more clones than average since he is a chakra freak.

Therefore there are certain times when a ninja faces an opponent with this techinque is ignorant of the fact that there is no real body.

For instance Neji, who likely would have never read this specific forebidden scroll, believed that there must be a real body and decided to attack the clone that seemed most hesitant to attack him. Naruto was aware of this and made his clone pretend to be hurt then attacked him with a different clone, capitalizing on Neji's assumption.

There have been filler scenes where it is indicated that there is a real body, such as when Sasuke attacked Naruto and then boasted that he could see the real body between the clones with his sharingan. We can blame the animators for that.

However Kishi has contradicted the story in the manga itself, as early back as when Naruto turned himself into a large shuriken and had his clone hide him in his backpack.

He then threw himself to Sasuke in order to trick Zabuza into releasing Kakashi.

However after freeing Kakashi when Naruto was in the water Zabuza tried to attack him and Kakashi (who knows Kage-bushin all to well) sacrificed his own arm to block Zabuza. The clone on the land later disappeared, even though logically the clone in the water that freed Kakashi should have been disposable (he also recaps his plan mentioning his "real" body so there is no way around this contradiction).

The manga has been contradicted once again in this battle with Kakuzu. Naruto defeats him by "risking his real body" on the attack and using a decoy to cast his new jutsu all the while performing the same jutsu behind his back (the old bait and switch ).

Now maybe Kakuzu was just as ignorant as Neji was being that he is not a Leaf ninja and does not have access to the hidden scrolls, he could have assumed there was a real body himself. But the reaction of Kakashi once again indicate that there is a "real body" when Kagebunshin is cast.
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Old 2007-02-16, 22:15   Link #2
Phantastic
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I must agree. It's happened so many times, that I just go with the thought: "Hm, he hit Naruto. Must mean that it's a fake."
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Old 2007-02-17, 00:16   Link #3
Zek
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To be honest I think your initial interpretation was wrong. Never was it said that an advantage of Kage Bunshin was the lack of a real body. It was the fact that all the clones are exact duplicates of the original, from their physical presence to their amount of chakra. In the Neji fight, Naruto doesn't say "Got ya, the real body is the last one to survive," he says "I've been attacking you the whole time." It's never implied that Neji's interpretation was wrong - the mistake he made was thinking that Naruto would play it safe and use his clones for cover.

Naruto usually uses his real body for the decisive attack and it's not entirely clear why. The bad guys often correctly assume that that's the case, too. Frankly I think this is just unimaginative writing on Kishimoto's part. He knows that Naruto would never be in real danger if he fought intelligently and so he just decides not to make that happen.
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Old 2007-02-17, 01:52   Link #4
Sanjuronord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay View Post
When this jutsu was first introduced it was said that unlike Bunshin no jutsu where there is a real ninja and fake illusions casted by that ninja, Kagebunshins are all real copies of the ninja with chakra evenly distributed between each clone.
The only difference is in the clones, not the person using the jutsu. There is still an original body (Naruto in this instance) that used the jutsu, striking that body will dispel the jutsu and get rid of all the clones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShurikenJay View Post
It was shown that when a Kagebunshin was attacked they would disappear until there was only one user left and at that point the jutsu is dispelled and the remaining clone is the real ninja.
What you're referring to as the "remaining clone" is actually the original that used the jutsu.

The only sorta contradiction I can think of is that typically the clones disappear from a single hit immediately but when Neji hit what he thought was the real Naruto in their match, the clone managed to stick around long enough to distract Neji for the real Naruto and another clone to get behind him.
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Old 2007-02-17, 02:38   Link #5
MysticNinjaJay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zek View Post
To be honest I think your initial interpretation was wrong. Never was it said that an advantage of Kage Bunshin was the lack of a real body.
Ah damn, you're right.

I went back to the manga, where team 7 was originally trying to get the bells from Kakashi and he explains the jutsu.

All he says is that the clones are "real" copies of the ninja casting them, not that none of the bodies are real.

Infact in that fight when Kakashi uses kawamiri to switch Naruto's clone with himself Naruto's clones start beating the hell out of each other and then one clone tells the real Naruto to cancel the jutsu.

Spoiler for Naruto's beat up clone:


That's one additional instance btw where a clone does not disperse from one strike but takes damage the way one did against Neji.
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Old 2007-02-17, 07:13   Link #6
DrunkManCrying
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Originally Posted by ShurikenJay View Post
That's one additional instance btw where a clone does not disperse from one strike but takes damage the way one did against Neji.

I don't know whether or not it is just uncreative writing or not, but one could argue that the clones are not destroyed by the recieved strike so much as dispelled på Naruto himself. It would make perfect sense when you think about it: if you have 2 clones with one third of your chakra each and one gets wounded, you would - in all likelyhood - dispell that wounded clone to make the remaining clone stronger and thus more efficient.
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Old 2007-02-17, 07:58   Link #7
Mr. Johnny 5
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One thing i dont understand is....if the Kage Bunshins are exact copies....(in Naruto's case) how come some seem smarter?

example: (Throwing a rock to hit a target)
While throwing a rock and you throw it on different ways...it will be obvious that atleast one throwing technique will be better.
This is just a experiment...which will become (new) experience...

But quick thinking....logical thinking....intelligence...the brains....shouldnt they be the exact same?

It was funny because during his training Naruto said: "That me is good"
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Old 2007-02-17, 08:29   Link #8
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Well Zek pretty much answered everything, I will just add that Kage Bunshin isn't a Kinjutsu but a regular Jounin skill level.
Tayuu Kage Bunshin is a Kinjutsu.
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Old 2007-02-17, 09:30   Link #9
Rurik
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Originally Posted by DrunkManCrying View Post
I don't know whether or not it is just uncreative writing or not, but one could argue that the clones are not destroyed by the recieved strike so much as dispelled på Naruto himself. It would make perfect sense when you think about it: if you have 2 clones with one third of your chakra each and one gets wounded, you would - in all likelyhood - dispell that wounded clone to make the remaining clone stronger and thus more efficient.

Well, I think it could also be that Neei strikes are more stronger compared to Naruto's, also, The amount of chakra the clones are made of, will help on how resistant the clones are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5
One thing i dont understand is....if the Kage Bunshins are exact copies....(in Naruto's case) how come some seem smarter?


Maybe they are just using the better half of Naruto's brain...
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Old 2007-02-17, 10:54   Link #10
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post


Maybe they are just using the better half of Naruto's brain...
That would explain alot....about being having the brain of a donkey and sometimes the brains of Sakura....
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Old 2007-02-17, 11:59   Link #11
EvolutionXI
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Well sometimes naruto can seem to be fairly smart, while sometimes really dumb. I think just some of the clones end up being him in that somewhat smart/serious state, while others are in the dumb/childish state.
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Old 2007-02-17, 12:49   Link #12
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
One thing i dont understand is....if the Kage Bunshins are exact copies....(in Naruto's case) how come some seem smarter?

example: (Throwing a rock to hit a target)
While throwing a rock and you throw it on different ways...it will be obvious that atleast one throwing technique will be better.
This is just a experiment...which will become (new) experience...

But quick thinking....logical thinking....intelligence...the brains....shouldnt they be the exact same?

It was funny because during his training Naruto said: "That me is good"
They should be the same...

During training, though, it would make sense to have your clones each do something different.

Using the rock analogy, you'd have some clones practice throwing overhand, some throwing underhand, some throwing for distance, some throwing for accuracy.

Of course a few would be better than others depending on what they're doing.
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Old 2007-02-21, 01:24   Link #13
Viperus
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Didnt Hokage use kage bushin while fighting orochimaru and then used that crazy techinque. All 3 Hokage clones whitstood a few attacks.
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Old 2007-02-21, 02:31   Link #14
baalthaczaar
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i think that the strength of the attack that can actually kill or maim the user of the kagebunshin dispels it, so it would make sense if the sandaime's KB withstood some butt kickin'. in some cases however they might be "programmed"(for the lack of a better term) to dispel in a weaker (relatively) attack.
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Old 2007-02-21, 02:56   Link #15
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imo kage bushin can be really strong or operate like how zakus ice mirrors for transportation,

naruto can just kage bushin, and he can teleport his real self through the fake bushins, and anyone of them can be the real one by switchin....
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Old 2007-02-21, 04:26   Link #16
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Okay, it was never said, that there isn't a "real body", however I think it was strongly implied and I thought the same way ShurikenJay did.

In every fight we saw, the original body was always the last to survive. It was like the author wanted to say, that this is part of the Jutsu, even though he never actually wrote it down.
And come to think of it, it also makes sense: If those clones are perfect physical copies, and have the same amount of chakra (because it gets divided evenly), why shouldn't they be able to be the remaining "real" body?
I never thought that it was implied...the reason why, more often than not, the real ninja is the last one is because first of all the real ninja can't be dispelled, so they'd be last regardless, and second because most of the time they just "send in the clones" (cue music) so they won't have to be in danger, or so they can perform another jutsu while the opponent is distracted, or to gauge an opponent's strength.

And the reason they can't be the remaining real body is because they are not the real body...they don't go too in depth into it, but there could be any number of reasons (life force seperate from chakra, the soul, the ego, etc.). Besides...I don't think that the copies are absolutely perfect...that would mean that inside each one of Naruto's thousand clones there is a clone Kitsune waiting to unleash screaming temporal doom upon the earth...

...that'd be an interesting technique...make 1000 clones and then release the seals on all of them...then you'd have 1000 screaming mad demon foxes running around...
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Old 2007-02-21, 06:19   Link #17
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Ichimaru View Post
imo kage bushin can be really strong or operate like how zakus ice mirrors for transportation,

naruto can just kage bushin, and he can teleport his real self through the fake bushins, and anyone of them can be the real one by switchin....
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Okay, it was never said, that there isn't a "real body", however I think it was strongly implied and I thought the same way ShurikenJay did.

In every fight we saw, the original body was always the last to survive. It was like the author wanted to say, that this is part of the Jutsu, even though he never actually wrote it down.
And come to think of it, it also makes sense: If those clones are perfect physical copies, and have the same amount of chakra (because it gets divided evenly), why shouldn't they be able to be the remaining "real" body?
Because they only exist as long as the original wants them to. When he dies they dissapear.
Anyway no it was never even slightly implied.
With events like Kidoumaru playing with Naruto's clones to find the real body, Neji thinking he had found who Naruto trully was, Kakuzu believing he could ignore the clone by striking the real Naruto, Kakashi trying to find the real rock Ninja among his KB, etc. I don't even understand how anyone could say it was implied at all, much less strongly implied.
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Old 2007-02-21, 10:17   Link #18
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
The fact remains: In all these events, it never happend, that someone found a "real one". It was always the last body that remained. Just because the enemies thought they could find a real body, it doesn't mean, that there has to be one.

I could even turn around the argument: It was never said, that they are all real bodies, however IIRC it was also never said, that there is exactly one real body between them.

Like I said: I thought that this "last one is the real one" is how the Jutsu was supposed to work and why it was forbidden.
If it were like that everyone would be looking to destroy all the clones first and then destroy the last one standing, instead of trying to find the real one.

The fact that this has happens is jut to bring some emotions in those scenes.
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Old 2007-02-22, 01:04   Link #19
Hentai Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
The fact remains: In all these events, it never happend, that someone found a "real one". It was always the last body that remained. Just because the enemies thought they could find a real body, it doesn't mean, that there has to be one.

I could even turn around the argument: It was never said, that they are all real bodies, however IIRC it was also never said, that there is exactly one real body between them.

Like I said: I thought that this "last one is the real one" is how the Jutsu was supposed to work and why it was forbidden.
No, it (Taijuu) was forbidden because it was dangerous and leaves you completely helpless if you don't have enough chakra to go around. Regular Kage Bushin is just a jonin level technique which is used by enough people that its workings would be fairly well-known. Naruto appears to have enough control over his clones that he uses them as disposable heroes...you'd think that if each one was a real one, they'd take issue with being dispelled needlessly. If there wasn't a real one, Naruto wouldn't have said what he did when fighting Neji...because every one would be the real Naruto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
If it were like that everyone would be looking to destroy all the clones first and then destroy the last one standing, instead of trying to find the real one.
True that...I honestly didn't think it was even an arguable issue that there was a single real-body.
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Old 2007-02-22, 05:43   Link #20
Hunter
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
The fact remains: In all these events, it never happend, that someone found a "real one". It was always the last body that remained. Just because the enemies thought they could find a real body, it doesn't mean, that there has to be one.
Actually Young kakashi found the real Rock Nin after 17 try out of ~20 KB but anyway it doesn't change anything at all : we know how Kage Bunshin works because it was explained several times and your assumption wasn't part of these explanations.
So no you can certainely not turn around the argument, just like you can't say that KB naturally have the ability to shot laser beam through their eyes just because it was never said that they don't.
Quote:
Like I said: I thought that this "last one is the real one" is how the Jutsu was supposed to work and why it was forbidden.
Yeah I think we got that it was what you thought and like we said : It is wrong and there is no reason to believe that.
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