AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-02-24, 14:22   Link #1201
Archer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
I have a question too: Please read last line of my post if you think my post is too long.


Hmm...I personally don't think UBW is a Noble Phantasm. Even though in the game it did say UBW is one. The defination of a Noble Phantasm is a materialized legend isn't it? For a Noble Phantasm the principal rule is that there is a 'legend' about it. However there's no legend about the UBW at all, so I don't like the idea of calling UBW a Noble Phantasm.

Having read Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime, here's my version of explanation of UBW:

Unlimited Blade Works, or Reality Marble is an incomplete Marble Phantasm. Where the wielder of Marble Phantasm can create something out of nothing without any limitations, the wielder of a Reality Marble, can only create things that are within his/her 'own world'. That is, what's most significant of a person's inner heart. For example, if there's a computer freak wielding a Reality Marble, what he can summon are basically computer-related items, such as processors or programs. Of course, if the computer freak one day changes and become a ero-game freak, then his Reality Marble will no longer be able to summon computer chips, but lots of CG, or even CD of those games.
Also when a Reality Marble is switched off, the 'true' reality comes back, while a Marble Phantasm is capable of destroying the reality it erodes away and staying there without switching off.

To make it even more simple, let's start from the lower level of Reality Marble related magic: tracing/projection.

Think of a projector in real life:
You put images into the projector and project it onto a screen and an image is created. Same for tracing magic:
You put concepts in your magic circuit and project it onto reality and an object is created.

Now imagine you have a thousand projectors and a thousand screens completely surrounding you. Don't mind how you cramp all the projectors together, but now each projector is projecting a fraction of an image onto each of the screens. There, a 'world' made by picture is created. The 'reality' around you disappeared as you are surrounded by screens, and with the projections you create an imaginary world around you.
Similar for Reality Marble. You open up multiple magic circuits and have them project different objects around the reality you are in. Only this time the objects projects are not limited by images, but also objects, atoms, air and even time flow. This is how I think a Reality Marble works.

Now for Shirou's case.
Shirou did not learn Reality Marble properly like a magician do. Therefore, his reality marble is not complete. Unlimited Blade Works is actually not a projection of his inner heart, but a projection of his alaya-naya, or 'source' in English. Shirou's 'source' is swords. And therefore his Reality Marble is UBW--it's not Shirou's inner heart eroding the real world, but the entity of 'Emiya Shirou's existence' eroding the real world. That is, even if Emiya Shirou is to one day turn into a skateboard otaku his Reality Marble is still UBW. But since Emiya Shirou is so close to his 'source' I don't think he would be pick up any non-sword related hobby...
I often compare Emiya Shirou with Ryogo Shiki from Kara no Kyokai--they both are close to the 'source' in different ways. While Shiki is able to directly open a communication path and understand the 'source', Emiya Shirou is constantly communicating with the 'source' however he only see the sword part of the 'source'

To sum it up:
Reality Marble = incompletely/weaker form of Marble Phantasm.
Unlimited Blade Works = incomplete Reality Marble backed up by the 'source'

So: UBW = a very broken form of Marble Phantasm backed up by the 'source'

Of course, this theory is just me gathering bits and pieces from the 3 novel works of Nasu---there is no evidence what-so-ever that backs me up so only believe what you like: it's A-OK if you completely/partially disagree on my theory.


Question!
Q: Is Saber's Excalibur and Caliburn a one-handed or two-handed sword? It looks like one-handed to me, but Saber is always wielding it with two hands...
No, there's quite a difference between Marble Phantasm and Reality Marble.

Marble Phantasm is limited to reality, so it can only do what can be done in reality. All it does is manipulate luck so that the intended action, no matter how small of a possibility it has to happen, occurs. However, it has to be possible to do in reality.

Here's the analogy: You have a jar containing a million red marbles and one blue marble. Marble Phantasm allows the blue marble to be picked each and every single time. However, you cannot pick out a marble of any color other than blue or red, as it is impossible.

Reality Marble is not limited to the rules of reality, but rather creates a brand new reality. However, this reality is incredibly limited to one theme, and thus doesn't have the same kind of variety a Marble Phantasm does. It can't be considered a projection, as it actually overrides reality itself. This is why there is a ring of fire surrounding Archer when he summoned Unlimited Blade Works (as shown in the anime), as it is the actual "friction" between his reality and true reality.

Here's the analogy: You have a jar containing marbles of many colors. If there exists a Reality Marble that can change every single marble's color to blue, then the user will always be able to pick a blue marble. However, as long as that Reality Marble is active, no other marble color can be chosen, as the Reality Marble can only do one thing.

Reality Marble and Marble Phantasms are completely different things.

Also, here's my take on UBW:

As everybody pretty much knows, Archer is not a real Heroic Spirit, but rather a Counter Guardian. This means that his existence is based not upon the observation of people, but rather the observation of the world that forged the pact. That was how EMIYA was able to be a legendary figure without even being legendary at all.

If something defines a legend, then that something can also be considered to be legendary. Unlimited Blade Works is Emiya Shirou's signature power, as it is from this Reality Marble that he derives most (actually, all) of his strength from. Thus, it is a symbol of the Counter Guardian EMIYA, and therefore a legend in itself. In that sense, it can be considered a Noble Phantasm.

And for your question, I don't really know. :X
Archer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-24, 16:33   Link #1202
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
XD as expected from Archer-kun. Your understanding on Archer and Emiya Shirou is deep!
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-24, 18:48   Link #1203
Myname
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
The TYPE-MOON world is so deep...

About the 1-hander/2-hander sword thing, theres no real 1-handers or 2-handers, if you can wield it with one-hand (even if it weighs 10 tons), its a one-hander, if you can't and you need two-hands its a two hander. See Berserker's sword, if you compare the size of the blade to the wielder, it should obviously be a so called two-hander but since Berserker is crazy strong, he swings it with one hand.

Theres that plus the fact that Saber is a woman - weaker and well a sword hits harder if you swing it harder and you swing it harder with two hands.
Myname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-24, 20:13   Link #1204
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
If what you say is correct, then caliburn is a four-handed sword...(I half want someone to scream 'yes' and agree with this statement actually...) A longsword is a two-handed sword, though it is always used in conjunction with a shield in duels during the middle ages.
In real life there are standards for different types of one-handed and two-handed sword...(e.g. a standard Claymore weights 2.5kg and 130cm).

as for saber being weaker---she's a heroic spirit--spirit has no weight(at least I think? There's no information on weight in the character information so I assume so). Since excalibur is part of the heroic spirit it should be weightless...

Girl power! Saber is not weaker at all...her strength is on par with beserker(Heaven's Feel route shows Saber fighting equally with Beserker) and even overwhelms Archer in the beginning of the story. She can swing her blade so fast and furious that Lancer is having difficulty keeping up with it. She is capable of breaking Shirou's bones with a toy sword(one of the bad ends in the game) Do I need so say more?

I think in order to determine the nature of beserker's blade we have to decrease the size of beserker into that of an ordinary human, then we decrease the size of his blade with the same scale. Then we can determine the 'relative size' of beserker's blade.
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-26, 08:01   Link #1205
mlai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Quote:
Identification - Definition of the Two-Handed Great Sword

To understand what we are discussing it is important to first have a working definition. The respected work, Swords and Hilt Weapons, offers this description of the weapon:

"The two-handed sword was a specialized and effective infantry weapon, and was recognized as such in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Although large, measuring 60-70 in/150-175 cm overall, it was not as hefty as it looked, weighing something of the order of 5-8 lbs/2.3-3.6 kg. In the hands of the Swiss and German infantrymen it was lethal, and its use was considered as special skill, often meriting extra pay. Fifteenth-century examples usually have an expanded cruciform hilt, sometimes with side rings on one or both sides of the quillon block. This was the form which remained dominant in Italy during the sixteenth century, but in Germany a more flamboyant form developed. Two-handed swords typically have a generous ricasso to allow the blade to be safely gripped below the quillons and thus wielded more effectively at close quarters. Triangular or pointed projections, known as flukes, were added at the base of the ricasso to defend the hand." (Coe et al, p. 48)

[snip]

European sword making technologies throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance were quite capable of producing high-quality, lightweight, and flexible steel blades for cutting swords that could hold keen edges. These weapons were not intended to defeat heavy plate armor with powerful cuts but did evolve from those longswords that were developed for use against armors by thrusting rather than cutting. Handling real specimens of some of these enormous but beautiful weapons [such as seen in the three images to the right] is enlightening, for their size betrays their exceptional balance. It very quickly becomes clear they were intended for large fighting men to deliver not only powerful slashing blows but great stabbing attacks as well as pole-weapon-like techniques. Large as they were, they were not ridiculously heavy.

For more than a century two-handed greatswords were used less for fighting against armors and more for open battlefield where pike and halberd formations were combined with firearms. Accordingly, just as with its shorter single-hand cousins, the late 15th and early 16th century two-handed greatsword was not a crude excessively heavy bludgeoning weapon but a fairly agile and balanced weapon designed for close-combat in war and occasional duel.
There you go. 2-handed greatswords did exist as a classification, from the Middle Ages onward.
That said, Excalibur and Caliburn don't seem like 2-handed greatswords, which are HUGE. They span the height of a modern adult man, and Saber is only 5'1". Excalibur seems to be a longsword, which can be used with 1 or 2 hands, depending on the wielder. According to wiki, the blade of a longsword is about over 3', which sounds about right if you look at pics of Saber with sword.
Saber has to be weaker than an average knight, when she was alive. So she used 2 hands to compensate. That's how she learned to fight in life, that's how she'll fight in death. It doesn't matter how strong she became as a spirit.
A shinai (bamboo sword) is relatively harmless when used in slashing motions, but it can break bones if used expertly in thrusts. That's how Saber broke Shirou's ribs in the anime. I don't see why it's a game-ender though... he heals quickly enough.
Oh, as for where Saber puts her sword when not fighting... it seems Noble Phantasms exist in spirit form, and pops into the spirit's hands when he wills it. It's what confused me originally regarding Archer: he creates his weapons via tracing, not summoning a particular NP... I never caught on to that and therefore never had a clue who he really was.
mlai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-26, 14:39   Link #1206
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
I see. Thanks for the information ^^

Ya I think the reason Saber uses both hands when fighting was because of her habbit from the past too...

Oh in the game when you go to the church for the first time and choose 'I am not going to participate in the Holy Grail War', you loose all your command mantras, and Saber saber will beat you to death with a shinai(the pictures shows lines of slashing motions, not trusting, by the way)

I beated up a guy with a solid, wooden sword before, all I could manage is to cause bruises all over his body and not a single bone of his is broken...
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-26, 15:48   Link #1207
mlai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Hmm, sounds like a humorous "bad end." I don't see why Saber would get angry and beat Shirou (to death) just because he forfeited, since she can always go find another Master. In fact it'd be easier on her, to have a more professional Master.

And I really don't see why she would use a shinai for that task, except to accentuate the humor.

So FSN isn't like those old Choose Your Own Adventure novels, where you have dozens of lengthy storylines? So you have 3 main branches, and the rest of the endings are just 1-paragraph (and often nonsensical/humorous) bad endings?

I used to cut the tall reedy weeds in the garden with my bokken (wooden sword). I wanted to feel like a kenshi. It doesn't take a big swing; Jpnese swordplay is all in the wrists (at least that's how I liked it). I wanted to see how little I can move my wooden sword and still cut the reeds.
mlai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-02-26, 17:36   Link #1208
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Nope, the bad ends are still long as hell. For the Saber beat Shirou to death bad end it lasted around 10 pages as far as I remember. And it's not funny at all.
This game has 2 good ends, 3 true ends and over 40 bad ends. Some bad ends really make you want to cry, as well...Enjoy.

I don't know much about visual novels. The only ones I have played so far are F/SN, tsukihime and Kanon. And they are all similar. The only thing is, the pictures in F/SN are moving and has much more energy(SFX, a lot, especially during battles) than the other 2 games.

As mentioned by Myname, girls are usually weaker than guys. And I never received proper swordsmanship training. But still, cutting grass and breaking bones are two completely different task...
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 12:44   Link #1209
Question
Crossdresser
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Ive never really seen the bit about marble phantasm only being able to create effects that can actually occur. Hell in Tsukihime arcueid uses marble phantasm to create blades out of thin air. Blades suddenly appearing out of thin air have a 0% chance of occuring.
__________________

Last edited by Question; 2007-03-02 at 12:55.
Question is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-02, 20:33   Link #1210
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
If you want 'blades to suddenly appear out of thin air' as a result of magic, you will need true magic. However, if you want the effect of 'blades appear', then you can make it possible by either buying a load of them with money---if you can do it without miracle, you can do it with normal magic.

True that arc did not make blades in Tsukihime. Her claws are already more deadly than blades...she won't need any blades to begin with. But if marble phantasm can summon a whole town, then blades shouldn't be hard right?
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-10, 23:15   Link #1211
toru daito
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
sorry to interrupt your discussion,just want to ask,when was Fate:the hollow axtaria anime released?i stilll couldnt find the anime..even the review on the internet
toru daito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-11, 02:16   Link #1212
Archer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by toru daito View Post
sorry to interrupt your discussion,just want to ask,when was Fate:the hollow axtaria anime released?i stilll couldnt find the anime..even the review on the internet
There is no Fate: Hollow Ataraxia anime.
Archer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-12, 03:59   Link #1213
NoSanninWa
Weapon of Mass Discussion
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New York, USA
toru daito: In case you don't know. Ataraxia is a game, not an anime.
__________________

There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.
NoSanninWa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-12, 08:47   Link #1214
toru daito
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
i see..so thats why i couldnt find that anime..
fate staynight anime is made based on the game right?
so is there any chance hollow axtaria will be made into anime too?
toru daito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-12, 09:40   Link #1215
Justice Knight
Haro Pwned U!!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
no one knows,i rather want fate zero to be animated cos

Spoiler for fate zero:
Justice Knight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-12, 13:27   Link #1216
mlai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Fate Zero has a higher chance of becoming anime than Fate Hollow Ataraxia.
mlai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-24, 07:06   Link #1217
akira88
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
I got a very noob question to ask:
In game it stated that King Athur is a girl, and yet she was hiding it from everyone, except her step father and the magician. Some people doubt that if the king is a girl, but then they only want a king who can lead them, so they didn't really concern about it.

my question is, how did she hide her identity while she only wear skirt?
akira88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-28, 06:47   Link #1218
mlai
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Because in Nasuverse Camelot, all the handsome knights are effeminate, have long hair, are voice acted by women, and wear ambiguous clothing.
mlai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-29, 07:57   Link #1219
andiyar
wingéd prettygirl
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to andiyar Send a message via MSN to andiyar
In addition, it isn't really that hard to disguise gender, as many people today demonstrate. And from my memories of Fate, there's some fun and wonderful mysticism bound up in drawing Caliburn that caused Arturia to be perceived as male, not female at all, possibly due to the whole "the king is a male" preconception.


-Andiyar
__________________
"Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"
andiyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-30, 18:31   Link #1220
Rahan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: France
Stupid question of the day :

Does Issei have any importance in the other scenarios of the game ? I mean, out of all the characters with more than 20 seconds of screening time in the anime, he and Taiga are the only one powerless and totally meaningless plotwise. Taiga is obviously there for comedic purpose (and because there is no good harem without a mature woman, I guess), but what about Issei ?

Most of his early apparitions were related to Shirou's trace abilities, so I thought he had figured out something. Then the action moved to the temple, so it became obvious to me he was involved, but nothing happened.
Also, Rin said she had detected another magician in school, but if Shinji didn't qualify as the one because of his lack of abilities, it should be the same for Soichiro, right ? So who was the last one ?
Rahan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.