AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > Tech Support

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-03-05, 19:48   Link #21
Epyon9283
Geek
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Jersey
Age: 31
Send a message via ICQ to Epyon9283 Send a message via AIM to Epyon9283
I like Fedora. I use it on my machines at work. I think as a desktop OS Fedora is far better than Redhat ever was. I just wish they'd put more effort into KDE. Its more Gnome centric than I'd like.
Epyon9283 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-05, 22:55   Link #22
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
Well, you can technically use Cygwin on windows if you need the power of that command prompt... but the native command prompt in windows does pale in comparison.

I think Linux is definitely at the level where it is fine to use it for productivity, just not for intense graphics and gaming relately needs for the time being. I think that it makes for great programming environment actually, however, you do have to read up about a bit. I still would shy away from using say, Ubuntu and VLC to play avi, just because of the fact that the windows world has very good support regarding codec and device drivers (as well as some fancier GPU acceleration options for your movies) that you won't see on Linux... yet.

User interface and interactive design can make or break acceptence to the audience however. This is no trivial matter, and I find it a pity that Linux world doesn't seem to be on the same footing as Windows or MacOS regarding usability. (not as if there's no GUI, just that...) Modern day users have so many choices for applications that they expect things to not only work, but actually be 'pleasing' to see and very intuitive. I am positive, however, that this will improve, since significant interests in using Linux for desktop has been ongoing for some time and that there's money to be made here. Ubuntu took this to heart when that team designed the OS's UI.
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori


panzerfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-06, 01:27   Link #23
SeijiSensei
AS Oji-kun
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orléans
Age: 65
30 Days with Ubuntu Linux

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl.../03/05/1343223

This is a Slashdot discussion of a linked article from a magazine that targets the overclocking, hot rod crowd. The article itself was well worth reading if you're considering converting to Linux; some of the comments from the Slashdotters are helpful as well, but you have to look a bit.

Many of the problems the article's author reports came from installing on a 64-bit platform. (That was his "old" machine; his newer testbed is naturally also 64-bit.) That probably fits the magazine's audience, but not the real target audience for Linux conversions. Converters are often trying to extend the life of their current hardware by replacing the operating system. I doubt 64-bit compatibility is a big issue for most of them.

Overall, though, the review is quite positive with glowing praise in particular for Ubuntu's package management tools. The usual list of negatives appear: lack of games, lack of drivers (in this case for a recently-released on-board gigabit card), location and installation of non-free items like video drivers and media codecs, and, in his case, printer support. (More surprising to me was that he had problems with an HP printer. HP provides quite good support for Linux including open-sourced drivers.)

He recommends a dual-boot solution for gamers but had considerable problems setting it up. He chose to repartition the original drive which is always much more complicated and error-prone than using two disks. Which brings me to ...

@ Ledgem
Quote:
my controller is an nforce3 250
As always, Google is your friend. A search for "nforce3 linux" turned up the nforcershq.com site and this forum posting. From "pinky's" response in this thread, I'd say you'd be fine:

"i've had gentoo(64 bit), fedora(32 bit), and ubuntu(both 64 and 32) more or less successfully running on a dfi nf3 250gb, if that helps... "

The "more or less" part is, admittedly, a bit disturbing
__________________
SeijiSensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-06, 19:15   Link #24
felix
sleepyhead
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
@ Epyon9283
> "The command prompt is NOT prehistoric. If you're averse to using it then Linux isn't for you."
Ohh.. WHAT IS IT THEN?!!!
I think it is, quite simply because it's balky and most commands are in latin alien as far as normal people are concern.

I don't have any problem using it, yes it is fast and efficient if you're one to dump all sorts of files in a disorganized fashion on your hdd(s) but, honestly.. consider the time it takes to learn the so-so stupid commands and how fast people are likely to forget them, not to mention how often they might need to use them...

From my POV the console in linux is it's trump card and biggest fukin' flaw. Besides the fact it drives away everyone that's not in touch with their over-zealous inner-geek, and looks like a damn error display, it provides a cheap excuse for people to skip any user-friendly implementations and just rip pieces of words from the dictionary and stick them together afterwards calling them `commands`

Honestly there are countless ways the thing could be improved.. or it's general usage could be skipped.. but meh. Tradition I guess..
-----

Also as far as the increased productivity argument goes,
  1. There are, for example little shortcuts in windows like the WinKey + E for explorer, or the WinKey + R for Run and other associated little things here and there that would generally make your experience more 'productive'.. a little But I doubt most even know of them. The basic thing is this, people that are concern with things like efficiency don't have such a messy hard drive that they would save any time by chaining commands on the console to do specific tasks. In fact it really is a stupid use for it if your not doing anything of high level administrative nature.
  2. It's probably... no not "probably" I know it for a fact that it's harder to teach them to handle the command line then it is to teach them every tiny tedious programing do-thingy. Maybe it doesn't make logical sense but I've seen time and time again people fail at it, and I don't blame them, years and years and nobody has even bothered to make it friendly just a little more, like starting a little extra thread to offer some aid with the commands would kill the system or something. Actually translating them from star-treck to mortal intuitive language would be better... probably.

@ SeijiSensei
> "Unix shell languages offer a rich command and programming environment that's simply unknown in the Windows world. I've written one-line commands to accomplish tasks in a few moments that would take a lot longer to accomplish if I had to use GUI tools. (For example, sort a list of 35,000 email addresses by domain after removing certain domains and removing any duplicated addresses. One line in Linux, took a couple of seconds to execute. My client would have used Excel and taken half an hour.)"
Lack of any sort of filter system, and hours of learning the "the rich command and programming environment that's simply unknown in the Windows world" doesn't sound so good. As far as I'm concern if your willing enough to learn some command and need it so often why don't you just make a program then run it in windows from the command line, it ain't that hard to do, you can have all the little bits you want with them.

But getting to the point, rich programing languages are for programmers not users. Making a OS dependent on such skills and aiming it at a product for the masses is just ignorance.

@ Ledgem

Wow this sure is becoming a trend lately.
Why is it that if "Vista is totally disappointing" suddenly Xp with ought changing a tiny bit "becomes just as disappointing" And why is it that since MS releases some retarded os you want to stop using all your windows only programs etc. which you sound like you are dependent on and want to convert to Linux and say welcome to a hole host of head aches and iches.

No offense intended, but I just had to ask, your logic makes no sense. I have to use Linux and know all the idiotic garbage built into Linux and it's distributions and I don't get all the enthusiasm people have to switching to it. Sure it is technicality faster in percentage terms, but that really equals a few seconds over a day which doesn't account for all the trouble you face with it for every little thing. and it's lack of polish.

Well good luck anyways
-----

Oh yeah forgot, advise...
Killing your windows partition is always a BAD idea.
Unless you don't have a choice leave your current system alone.
Since you asked the questions you asked.. more reason to leave it so.

Post Scriptum

If your used to Ms Office, and I mean use it
for useful things etc etc. OO.o might really
feel like crap.

It's good as an alternative but not something
to act as a replacement.

Best of luck..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Given Windows Vista's lack of appeal to me, I've been considering switching to Linux realistically. There are a few setbacks that I'd face; however, for the most part all of the programs I use heavily are available on Linux (Opera, GAIM) or have equivalents (OpenOffice).
__________________
felix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-06, 20:04   Link #25
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
All you've really done with that rant is show you don't work in the computing professional world and haven't really explored the motivations for business or individuals to make the choices they do in terms of OS. You'd be surprised at the arcane commands that "normal" people can learn in the course of doing their job. You sound really angry and I'm not quite sure why

Linux is a programming/engineering OS that is slowly making its way towards a general use OS. It still has problems but every year those problems slowly slip away. SeijiSensei, Ledgem, and I actually agree with core components of your rant, so I'm not really sure why you're attacking them.

Microsoft USED to have a fairly significant command line language... they broke it. A good OS should have GUI for "most daily routines" but allow the user to "tune under the hood" when necessary. Linux is getting closer, Microsoft is getting farther.

You're ignoring the biggest problems with Vista:
1) There's no compelling user reason to upgrade. This is about revenue streams and DRM.
2) Many, many users are discovering critical applications are failing in Vista. It's costly and annoying for private use but for commercial use its a disaster. Check the business sections for reactions to Vista.
3) As home user, if I can choose between "free" and "$400" and there isn't a huge difference, I'd be stupid not to go with "free" ... so its worth exploring periodically.

I think everyone agrees that not burning your bridges from Microsoft is a wise plan. I usually recommend a separate test machine... or a separate hard drive at least just to simplify matters. Spend at least a month trying to use it and test every single task you might ever think of doing.
Because our household plays games... until the games we like find some way to run under Linux, we'll always have a few Microsoft boxes around. But for school/work/communications/media --- Linux keeps getting closer to being A-OK depending on the distribution and the stuff at sourceforge.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 00:13   Link #26
rooboy
Umeboshi!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Wow, rant on!
The only thing that has me really curious is this part:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
But getting to the point, rich programing languages are for programmers not users. Making a OS dependent on such skills and aiming it at a product for the masses is just ignorance.
Is Linux now considered a product aimed at the masses? I guess certain distros could be, but it's just never seemed like a very for-the-masses product. It could be the low installed user base, dunno. Anyway, always good to see a good passionate rant.

So, I installed Ubuntu 6.06 today (technically I installed it as a second OS on this machine). I've never used Linux before, I'm curious if I'll find it easy or not. Either way I finished all of the homework from my three classes for this semester two weeks ago, so I'm bored out of my mind anyway. If it wasn't for the fact that one of the classes is a P.E. class, which means I'm in the gym for an hour every day, I would have very little to do in my free time (since I also changed jobs to free up time for school and am no longer working 80 hour weeks).

I'm undecided on exactly how much I'm going to play with it, but I guess I'll start seeing if I can get everything converted over. While I highly doubt all of my tasks will convert to the Linux world (I make Vexx's family look like the solitaire players of the video game world ), I figure if I can manage to get it to manage torrents, watch anime (and output to my TV using the ATI drivers), surf the internet, VPN into work, and use OO.o for actual business applications (meaning less than 10-15% of what Office (specifically Excel) can do, I hardly need it to be able to do everything) - then I consider that pretty successful. If I could actually manage to get some combination of half or more of Far Cry, Dawn of War, Sims 2, Rise of Nations (good luck with that one ), and Neverwinter Nights 2 then I'm in the bonus!
__________________
rooboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 00:55   Link #27
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
@ Ledgem


As always, Google is your friend. A search for "nforce3 linux" turned up the nforcershq.com site and this forum posting. From "pinky's" response in this thread, I'd say you'd be fine:

"i've had gentoo(64 bit), fedora(32 bit), and ubuntu(both 64 and 32) more or less successfully running on a dfi nf3 250gb, if that helps... "
Oops, that makes me look like a newbie. Thanks much, I appreciate it. To be honest, I was Googling for it and kept the term "opensuse" in there as well. There weren't many hits doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats
@ Ledgem

Wow this sure is becoming a trend lately.
Why is it that if "Vista is totally disappointing" suddenly Xp with ought changing a tiny bit "becomes just as disappointing" And why is it that since MS releases some retarded os you want to stop using all your windows only programs etc. which you sound like you are dependent on and want to convert to Linux and say welcome to a hole host of head aches and iches.

No offense intended, but I just had to ask, your logic makes no sense. I have to use Linux and know all the idiotic garbage built into Linux and it's distributions and I don't get all the enthusiasm people have to switching to it. Sure it is technicality faster in percentage terms, but that really equals a few seconds over a day which doesn't account for all the trouble you face with it for every little thing. and it's lack of polish.
I didn't really understand the first part about what's suddenly happening to XP. And no offense taken; I can understand your confusion. If someone said to me, "hey, Windows XP works great for me, but I hate the next version of the operating system! I'm changing this instant!" I'd ask them what on earth they were up to. Just because a new version comes out doesn't mean you need to upgrade. People still use Windows 2000, and do so because they claim it's more stable than XP.

I may not have made it clear enough, but I'm not switching to Linux and never looking back just yet. One of my concerns that I voiced in this thread was being able to access files on a Linux partition from Windows. I asked that because I definitely foresee myself returning to Windows for at least a few programs (Photoshop, MS Office). At the same time, the programs that I use on a day-to-day basis - GAIM, Opera, Winamp - either have versions in Linux, or equivalents. I'm not the power-user I once was. Sadly enough, I can now place myself in that category of people who just use the internet to "check email and browse the web" (ugh, makes me sound like some 90 year old web user).

Why switch to Linux now, of all times? Because I see that Vista is something I'll never allow on any of my systems, and I don't think I'll be on XP forever. At the same time, I'm nearing the end of my college days. I thought I couldn't get any busier than I am now, but looking ahead into what's to come, I may very well be wrong. I need my computer to function flawlessly almost all of the time, because I no longer have the time to tinker with it. I love tinkering, but I could easily consume a weekend doing that, and that's time I can't afford. The point is, if it's hard enough for me to do that timing now, it'll be nearly impossible later.

So think of this as an investment and an experment. I tried to use Linux two years ago, and it was a total bust. This time around, I'll have an isolated HD for Linux alone, and I also have hardware that makes rebooting painless. I'll suffer a hit to my productivity initially, but I'm banking on overcoming it.

Also, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I really want Beryl. I want an OS that looks pretty, so that every now and then I can just enjoy watching it. I don't want a Mac system because I still like to tinker with hardware every now and then (my father and sister are Mac people, by the way). Vista has it now, but it also has a bunch of other "features" that I absolutely don't want and can't remove.

And yeah, I wouldn't mind an efficient operating system where I can relax about viruses and spyware. I've been using Windows heavily since Win95 (I remember Windows 3.11, but the computer I had access to back then was a Mac) - I've crashed my computer about four times since I started using Windows. I've never had issues with viruses, and only once with spyware. I'm not a novice to this stuff. But I do get tired of it. It's again partially due to lack of time (I can't go rebuilding my OS on a whim) and that the data on my computer is now much more valuable than it once was when my computer was just a fun toy and communication device. It's a business tool now.

Even if I wanted to switch fully to Linux, I can't (as far as I know) because my smartphone runs Windows Mobile. Unless I can synchronize it with my computer in Linux, I'm attached to Windows at least for that. (See if my next smartphone will run an OS that can't work with other operating systems!)

My four current hard drives will remain NTFS partitioned, but the fifth add-in will belong to Linux. This is purely an experiment and learning experience, and I'm just planning far in advance. I don't recommend that every single person convert to Linux - I like to give the Mac boys a hard time, but at the end of the day, I'll always say that you should use the operating system that best fits your needs. If you like Windows, Cats, more power to you. Just don't make it a pride issue - if another OS offers you something better, take it. Operating systems and computers aren't sports teams, they're tools to enhance your life and make it easier/more productive. If your computer can do better, you're cheating yourself.
__________________
Ledgem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 07:52   Link #28
felix
sleepyhead
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
@ Vexx

I sound angry ehh~
Ok I guess it's at least somewhat true.

Strange we seem totally opposite views, I like to think an operating system should be either command-line only or GUI only or at least something like a 99% - 1% ratio. You seem to think it should be 50 - 50 I personally see these types of operating systems as big improvises and find them annoying.
> "Linux is a programming/engineering OS that is slowly making its way towards a general use OS. It still has problems but every year those problems slowly slip away. SeijiSensei, Ledgem, and I actually agree with core components of your rant, so I'm not really sure why you're attacking them."
Sorry I'm very straight forward with things.
And mostly, I guess, have problems with context.

If I somehow sounded threatening or the like please accept my apologies.
> "Microsoft USED to have a fairly significant command line language... they broke it. A good OS should have GUI for "most daily routines" but allow the user to "tune under the hood" when necessary. Linux is getting closer, Microsoft is getting farther."
Well I'm not seeing it as a bad thing.
I like to think performance isn't an issue as long as functionality is maintain regardless of minor time costs, so concentrating on giving the functionality over the GUI isn't a bad decision IMO
> "You're ignoring the biggest problems with Vista:"
What?!.. I hate Vista and wouldn't use it even if it was FREE open source.. the works.

I do think Xp is good stuff, even tho it can become somewhat of an annoyance after a while it does what it's suppose to, which goes something along the lines: "provide a simple easy to use easy to maintain operating system".

Linux seems to (at least want to be) the next step as far as level in complexity and functionality goes, but really the versions with the GUI are just buggy whichever way you look at it. Even for small things you'd have to go back to the command line an mess around with the OS inner bits to make it work.

Using just the command line is pretty nice, if you're only going to use it for work but combining it with what should just be simple daily activities that shouldn't require you to think of what to do next and just offer the simple alternatives to you is just wrong. And even if it is in some way more efficient, the price you pay is the relaxation in your relaxation so what's the point.

A linux with ought a GUI works great and is great.
For a linux with a GUI all you can do is measure how much they failed at archiving the goal set. Even for distributions that try to be for general use fail in some way or another at some point or another. And while Windows crashes are generally caused by messed up programs being installed and used Linux crashes and troubles are more or less the fault of the operating system.

From my perspective Linux has yet to become a complete OS... no not saying Windows is one, but windows doesn't try either (that would be besides the point) where as Linux seems to push towards being a better everything, or at least that's how I'm seeing certain development lately. As long as the distinction between linux for work and linux for personal use can't be made in distributions the OS will be buggy and garbage.
I know "garbage" maybe a too harsh of a word but I don't see any better way to put it.

Post Scriptum
> "you don't work in the computing professional world"
Spot on Yes I don't, and I try my hardest not to,
Perhaps I have some deluded or polluted definition of
what is considered today professional but in any case
it's being "professional" is nothing I care much about,
mostly due to the fact that some professional solutions
I see as just big improvises (which can only lead to
even bigger improvises). Where as others are so too
naive and ignorant of the needs of the client.

@ rooboy
> "Is Linux now considered a product aimed at the masses? I guess certain distros could be, but it's just never seemed like a very for-the-masses product."
I'm not seeing or hearing of any substantial effort, as far as the actual OS is concern, going into developing more functionality for practical reasons.
Most of the effort and concerns seem to spin around the distribution and popularity, lately.

@ Ledgem
> "If you like Windows, Cats, more power to you. Just don't make it a pride issue - if another OS offers you something better, take it. Operating systems and computers aren't sports teams, they're tools to enhance your life and make it easier/more productive. If your computer can do better, you're cheating yourself."
That's funny. You make it sound like I'm some big Windows FAN lol
Personally, I've come to think of something better not as something that runs faster but something that has more innovation built in, functionality mostly leaves to be determined by the mind set of the client. Windows isn't innovative and isn't better but it works, and that's what it promises and what most people that look to it want. In contrast linux distributions seem to be on a quest to reach others (mostly windows) and at the same time be better, to me current development seems to go forward and backwards at the same time; actually, considering history, the state of things in major distributions is almost ironic.

In every linux distribution I've used (which had some form of GUI or was meant in some way to be used as personal) I've always had a "To Fix List" at hand or a "To Do List" when it came to adding the little functionality I need (I'm talking of basic programs) so you can understand why I don't see linux as much of a realistically easier to maintain alternative.
__________________
felix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 09:53   Link #29
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...

Strange we seem totally opposite views, I like to think an operating system should be either command-line only or GUI only or at least something like a 99% - 1% ratio. You seem to think it should be 50 - 50 [SIZE="1"]I personally see these types of operating systems as big improvises and find them annoying.
...
May I join the discussion? Isn't the best solution a 100 - 100? So you can do everything with GUI-tools as you can with command line (I think that would please everyone). Though some things, like using regular expressions, is hard to visualize. I've seen tools doing it, but you need to understand the laws of regular expression none the less, aswell as why and where to apply it for content filtering. I suppose most open source freeware programmers do not want to waste too much time on the GUI. The example of GUIized regular expressions shows how complicated such a task is (there are people spending weeks/months of work on just that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
What?!.. I hate Vista and wouldn't use it even if it was FREE open source.. the works.
...
I guess you don't like the name

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
I do think Xp is good stuff, even tho it can become somewhat of an annoyance after a while it does what it's suppose to, which goes something along the lines: "provide a simple easy to use easy to maintain operating system".
...
Well there are reasons for Vista's weird and inefficient architecture, like playing back AACS encoded HD-DVDs. On XP this won't be possible. Unless of course one uses a hack. I know this is actually one of the reasons to hate Vista. But my point is, since Vista bows before mighty media industry, Microsoft stays powerful too, because every PC featuring true abilities to play back HD-DVDs will be shipped with Vista. A win win situation for the mighty ones (in the OS market as well as the media market). Vendors do not care, they offer whatever people want or need or are virtually forced to buy.
I think many common people don't even care. So the mighty ones have a walk-over. I am a realist. Using Windows 2003 and Linux has shown me, how much you are lost at times. If software and drivers are targeted mainly to the common system, you sometimes have hard times to adapt certain things to your not so common system.
Maybe I am a pessimistic realist here, but that forces me to learn to somehow like Vista.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
Linux seems to (at least want to be) the next step as far as level in complexity and functionality goes, but really the versions with the GUI are just buggy whichever way you look at it. Even for small things you'd have to go back to the command line an mess around with the OS inner bits to make it work.
...
Well its a definition of usability. Linux's true power is, to be highly customizable. The more barebone it is, the more stable it operates. You can't do that with Windows. Though on the same level of complexity (like supporting multi media, 3D games, all sorts of hardware devices and stuff), Linux seems to be even more unstable than XP. Which is partly the fault of its extremely spreaded and diverse architecture/builds. There are so many variants of Linux builds and distros out there, that for a software developper as well as a software user, things become more complicated than necessary. If you look in the ebuilds dependency tree of Gentoo Linux you will be shocked how many things don't work together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
Using just the command line is pretty nice, if you're only going to use it for work but combining it with what should just be simple daily activities that shouldn't require you to think of what to do next and just offer the simple alternatives to you is just wrong. And even if it is in some way more efficient, the price you pay is the relaxation in your relaxation so what's the point.
...
Preferance is very subjective. Though I suppose most people would think like you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
A linux with ought a GUI works great and is great.
For a linux with a GUI all you can do is measure how much they failed at archiving the goal set. Even for distributions that try to be for general use fail in some way or another at some point or another. And while Windows crashes are generally caused by messed up programs being installed and used Linux crashes and troubles are more or less the fault of the operating system.
...
Not quite right, its basically incompatibilities. Badly chosen components for the distros and so on. Linux's base is very stable. All the more fancy Open Source crap build around it, is well, a little crappy sometimes. The more you use, the more likely something crashes. (that applies also for 3rd party kernel modules, which are similar to bad drivers in Windows)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
...
From my perspective Linux has yet to become a complete OS... no not saying Windows is one, but windows doesn't try either (that would be besides the point) where as Linux seems to push towards being a better everything, or at least that's how I'm seeing certain development lately. As long as the distinction between linux for work and linux for personal use can't be made in distributions the OS will be buggy and garbage.
I know "garbage" maybe a too harsh of a word but I don't see any better way to put it.
...
At least it is free garbage . Actually it is more like a mess, less like garbage.
Jinto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 13:44   Link #30
Ending
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
The command prompt is NOT prehistoric. If you're averse to using it then Linux isn't for you.
Well, I would like to argue against you, but the thing is that you are right. Linux isn't for me despite the fact that I have meddled with computers for years, know my bit of programming, and regularly toy with such things as databases, websites, and technical communication.

Why? Like said before: I don't want to take 20+ hours just to learn how to get the goddamn OS to do the stuff I want it to do when Windows does it with a click. Screw command-prompt. I'm happy to pay the cash to get to do some real work right away. (Or, knowing how infamous MS is, simply warezzing it.)

Unfortunately, it's the programmers who usually prefer the prompts and it's the programmers who develope the OS. Which leads to the fact that Linux will never become popular enough for mass-markets until they get some humane usability-experts into the cadre. And maybe kick out some pre-historic Unix-gurus from the stool.
Ending is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 15:40   Link #31
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
Why? Like said before: I don't want to take 20+ hours just to learn how to get the goddamn OS to do the stuff I want it to do when Windows does it with a click. Screw command-prompt. I'm happy to pay the cash to get to do some real work right away. (Or, knowing how infamous MS is, simply warezzing it.)
Oh! So 20+ hours of your life are worth $400? Man, you're expensive.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 17:02   Link #32
Syaoran
Contemplating Naruto
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordplay View Post
Why? Like said before: I don't want to take 20+ hours just to learn how to get the goddamn OS to do the stuff I want it to do when Windows does it with a click. Screw command-prompt. I'm happy to pay the cash to get to do some real work right away. (Or, knowing how infamous MS is, simply warezzing it.)
That's a scary point of view... You being used to working with computers and doing little programming and such even dares to say that O.o

The "click and it works" idea is typically a thing for the computer illiterated house wife who only uses MSN and uploads a few picks to MSN Spaces. *no offence* A UI is useful and we won't do much without it nowadays, but to worship it is too much.

Yes, everything works with a click. But ow! I clicked and now I get a weird box saying an ActiveX needs to be installed and MSN Messenger logs her out.
Ooooh... "Internet" crashed. My PC doesn't have Internet anymore! what should I doooo ?! Really... that's the click and it works world.

And honestly... this is something I witnessed when I was at my dealer to order stuff. Me giggling and laughing had me to turn away for not offending that women and the storekeeper had a hard time keeping serious as well after seeing me.

But you should really understand that the command prompt or shell or console is the most powerful tool around.
Even had to recover a broken Windows (not even SafeMode UI) ? The tool to fix some issues is the "Recovery Console" ... yup ... a command prompt...
Every important aspect of your OS can be modified / viewed by it, using commands and options your pretty user interface doesn't even know about.
__________________

Visit http://syaoran.miniville.fr/ or help them get a job (~_^)
Syaoran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 17:04   Link #33
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Maybe WanderingKnight really doesn't want to know what contract rates are for computer or network support work.

The downside of course is that your clients usually don't want you around until the fire and smoke makes it hard to see ("we'll save money by not putting oil in the engine, yeah thats it!")

I keep telling them cut-rates for showing up to PREVENT disaster but Noooooo.... (bah ).

GUI vs command-line really shouldn't be an either-or situation for a general purpose OS (rather than a "programmer" OS or an "appliance" OS). You should be able to press the shiny buttons to do task-specific activities and basic configuration -- and then be able to dive under the hood for power work, esoteric configuration (like, say, multiple gateway networks where what protocol or app drives which gateway you use), or other "tinker" stuff.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-07, 20:43   Link #34
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
GUI vs command-line really shouldn't be an either-or situation for a general purpose OS (rather than a "programmer" OS or an "appliance" OS). You should be able to press the shiny buttons to do task-specific activities and basic configuration -- and then be able to dive under the hood for power work, esoteric configuration (like, say, multiple gateway networks where what protocol or app drives which gateway you use), or other "tinker" stuff.
Totally. I think many of us who are used to Windows have a dislike for the command line because it's become relatively useless in Windows, and so we barely use it (I use it every now and then, mostly for ipconfig /flush). I'll admit that my initial thinking of the command line is that yeah, it's archaic. It reminds me of my Windows 95 days (mostly having to boot into DOS to fix a corrupt himem.sys). But Linux isn't Windows, and if people like Vexx and SeijiSensei claim that the command line offers something useful to your productivity, I won't argue against it until I'm at least proficient with it. You never know what you're missing, and maybe it really is something that's incredibly useful.

I suppose the only big problem with the commandline is that in many cases for Linux, it becomes a requirement. What I like about Mac OS is that the command line is there for the programmers and those who know how to use it, but at the same time, you really can get by with just the GUI interactions (unless you hit a big problem, but Windows is the same way). Or at least, so I've heard from my Mac friends and family. Too bad Mac hardware is so locked up...

Also, as Vexx said, Linux is free. It doesn't cost you anything to try it out. And it really is getting better all the time. Maybe I'll be disappointed this time around and I'll end up with a fifth small HD for storage that just happens to be an ext3 partition; the software aspects won't have cost me anything but a bit of time. I don't really see any harm in it.
__________________
Ledgem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-08, 06:01   Link #35
Loniat
Paranoid Android
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wherever you go, there you are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Maybe WanderingKnight really doesn't want to know what contract rates are for computer or network support work.
If he knew, his opinion on command line would certainly be different...


Anyways, I decided to avoid Windows Vista, Mac and Linux topics in this forum like the plague. Would answer if someone is in real need of support with Linux or Unix and perhaps Windows, otherwise I will not let my tea become lukewarm..
Loniat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-08, 08:02   Link #36
Ending
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
Oh! So 20+ hours of your life are worth $400? Man, you're expensive.
20 x 15 = 300 € ($400). That's 20 hours of hard-earned cash lost to pulling hairs out of your head. Which you can start doing only if you know your way with computers in any case. By the way, I have never actually paid anything of my OS. Yes, I'm a stinker and proud of it.

Quote:
You being used to working with computers and doing little programming and such even dares to say that O.o
Command-prompts isn't any more l77t than GUI. Both do the same thing: offer the user a way to interact with the computer. Of these two, GUI is the one which is more easily accessible by a wider variety of people, which is naturally a good thing. After all, OS shouldn't be visible otherwise than helping you to the programs that do the stuff you want.

Quote:
I suppose the only big problem with the commandline is that in many cases for Linux, it becomes a requirement.
That's what I have been telling you. Linux is supposed to have a real GUI, but in reality you have to resort to the, hss!, command-prompt the moment you want your soundcard working. Or anything that requires a driver or, worse, compiling a source-code into a usable exec.

Thousand dollar question to all computer illiterate here: do you know how where to get the source-code of a (any) video-player, compile it, and get it to work with sounds, video, and subtitles? Knew you wouldn't.

Quote:
Linux is free. It doesn't cost you anything to try it out. And it really is getting better all the time.
It's getting better in some ways, probably, but the problems it harbours are the same as ten years ago: poor usability and lack of support. Until those are solved, I don't see why people should go beyond trying out the live-DVD versions.
Ending is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-08, 09:10   Link #37
cyth
ふひひ
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordplay View Post
Thousand dollar question to all computer illiterate here: do you know how where to get the source-code of a (any) video-player, compile it, and get it to work with sounds, video, and subtitles? Knew you wouldn't.
It's pretty much a step-by-step process. o_o I mean, when I started out with Windows, I was pretty clueless, to be honest. I remember deleting program folders without uninstalling, installing every shareware program I could find, and with this kind of attitude I would break the system numerous times. But now, I believe there was no other way for me to learn, and to eventually get the job done, except by reading manuals. And I simply didn't do that when I was starting out with Windows.

When I started satisfying my curiosity with Linux distros, I quickly figured out just how useful Google and README files really are. "RTFM" suddenly made sense to me, and that's how I managed to compile that mplayer from SVN, even though I was a Windows-only user just a day before that.

Anyway, what "computer-illiterate" really means is "not willing to read the manual".
__________________
cyth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-08, 09:30   Link #38
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 34
Well I think there are people out there, who could not get things done, even if they read the manual before. My mother for example. First she would not be able to read the mostly english manuals. And even if there was one written in german, I doubt she could transfer the information into something usefull (I suppose she would fail understanding what they want from her, because she simply doesn't know the technical terms used in manuals).
Lets face it, many people even fail on such tasks like installing Windows. For them everything that is PCish is like a miracle cloud in wonderland (they see it, maybe they even can make some use of it... but they totally do not understand it)
Jinto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-08, 11:30   Link #39
Js2756
Thread Killer
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordplay View Post
Thousand dollar question to all computer illiterate here: do you know how where to get the source-code of a (any) video-player, compile it, and get it to work with sounds, video, and subtitles? Knew you wouldn't.
How many people with zero Windows experience can do that with a fresh install with Windows?

Anecdote: I can give my cousin's entire family, who have been using Windows products for roughly 5 years now, a fresh install of Windows XP, an mkv file with multiple audio and subtitle streams, and guarantee that they couldn't get it to display the subtitles or change the audio track in Windows.

The process for downloading VLC is just as easy in Ubuntu as it is in Windows (if not easier).

My point being is that a lot of people who put up pro-Windows arguments rely on the assumption that everyone has Windows experience. However, put two people with zero experience in front of Windows, and you'll find it is just as cryptec as a Linux distro with a GUI.
__________________
My anime review blog:
www.livejournal.com/~js2756
Js2756 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-08, 12:16   Link #40
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
As businesses are pointing out as they explore alternatives... it is going to cost them as much in training for Vista as it would for a Linux switch (and nearly as much in rollout, application, and work process testing). Fundamentally, MS decisions in their Vista product line have made them as vulnerable as they've ever been to a flanking on the market.

The thread is derailing from a discussion on changing from Windows to Linux. Probably futile request but the thread would stay more useful if we veered back to the technical issues?
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
linux

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.