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Old 2007-03-22, 07:27   Link #21
toru310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Thats basically sequential writing. Usually very uncommon on desktop systems. However in this case (formating, installing windows on a fresh formated drive) it is sequential writing. Since sequential reading/writing is far less stressy for the hdd, its okay for longer periods of time (however, a bad sector you can get everytime, its just the chances that differ. If you use your hdd seldom, and never sustained, you can still get a bad sector, chances are just much much lower that this happens)



I don't understand that part. When I download bittorrent I use 800Mbyte RAM cache and disk space preallocation (utorrent).



Basically yes. However, what do you think will the process of defragmenting your disk do? Its a very stressy thing for you hdd. And if defragmenting at all, than I'ld suggest a clever one. Like placing all those files physically nearby, that are often used together. E.g. all the Windows start-up load files sequentially one after the other (that would not only cause less stress on the disk, but also improve Windows start up time)



Well, on a NTFS drive it will move sometimes fast, when writing the Windows files to the disk (because NTFS partitions are written from both ends to the middle). But that is not as bad as disk totally fragmented by torrents (which were not preallocated... well sort of a natural fragmentation also happens with preallocated torrents if you download very much, but it is much less fragmenting). I'ld use a separate partition for torrent downloads, one that can be completely cleaned at times.



I think so... (yet there exists no absolute safety).
Thanks for the reply your like God sent person!!

Anyways with the download part so when you use bitorrent its does not use the hard disk space? And one more thing cpu usage is different from hard drive usage right? I mean for example when your ram is slow its takes up the space of your HDD Im using [764mb of ram] Finally it's not stressy for the Hdd if its downloading torrents for 24hrs???

Edit: I was rebooting my pc and suddenly the boot was slow all of the sudden this happened..
Spoiler:

Last edited by toru310; 2007-03-22 at 07:53.
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Old 2007-03-22, 08:06   Link #22
Jinto
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Bittorrent always will use hard disk space (otherwise you'ld never be able to store files on your hdd).

Well I should explain some basic things.

What is preallocation and why does it help to keep the drive quite defragmented:

Preallocation of files means, that the files you want to download are written completely empty to disk (without any data, just so that the space is already taken, before any data actually was written to it). The operating system (e.g. Windows), tries to write such a 0-filled file as sequential as possible (since it is a continuous stream of data). When the space is not preallocated, the file grows bigger with each new data block coming in. There will be a) file internal fragmentation, because the data blocks usually arrive rather random when downloading torrents (means a data block, near the end of the file can be physically stored next to a data block near the beginning of the file... when you want to read such a file later, the arm moves like crazy to read the file in its natural order) b) file external fragmentation, because of non-continuous data streams. If one downloads only one file, and there is no other disk writing activity on the system (while the file loads), there is no issue.
Lets imagine you'ld download 2 files with bittorrent... both are not preallocated. Lets say data packets coming in like this: packet_1_file1, packet_100_file2, packet_42_file1, packet_25_file2, packet_31_file1, packet_14_file1, packet_13_file2... since the files were not preallocated the OS would store them exactly in this order... so if you later want to read file1, the arm had constantly to skip parts of file2 (not too stressy, but in conjunction with the file internal fragmentation (a) its a lot more stressy). Preallocation helps to prevend a) and b).

Why use a cache?

Once you cache a file, it is not directly written to disk (even small caches can help). There is at least one write operation per incoming data block, but any write/read operation besides, is technically unecessary once the cache has the data. So if you e.g. upload a data block to different sources, you don't have to reread it every time from disk. Also writing parts of blocks (usually bittorrent clients download several at a time) is not so stressy, that means in a preallocated file, the arm does not have to jump in different positions in the file just to write every piece of new block data. (the block is to be completed in the cache and only then written to hdd). Even small RAM caches can be very usefull.
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Old 2007-03-22, 08:41   Link #23
toru310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Bittorrent always will use hard disk space (otherwise you'ld never be able to store files on your hdd).

Well I should explain some basic things.

What is preallocation and why does it help to keep the drive quite defragmented:

Preallocation of files means, that the files you want to download are written completely empty to disk (without any data, just so that the space is already taken, before any data actually was written to it). The operating system (e.g. Windows), tries to write such a 0-filled file as sequential as possible (since it is a continuous stream of data). When the space is not preallocated, the file grows bigger with each new data block coming in. There will be a) file internal fragmentation, because the data blocks usually arrive rather random when downloading torrents (means a data block, near the end of the file can be physically stored next to a data block near the beginning of the file... when you want to read such a file later, the arm moves like crazy to read the file in its natural order) b) file external fragmentation, because of non-continuous data streams. If one downloads only one file, and there is no other disk writing activity on the system (while the file loads), there is no issue.
Lets imagine you'ld download 2 files with bittorrent... both are not preallocated. Lets say data packets coming in like this: packet_1_file1, packet_100_file2, packet_42_file1, packet_25_file2, packet_31_file1, packet_14_file1, packet_13_file2... since the files were not preallocated the OS would store them exactly in this order... so if you later want to read file1, the arm had constantly to skip parts of file2 (not too stressy, but in conjunction with the file internal fragmentation (a) its a lot more stressy). Preallocation helps to prevend a) and b).

Why use a cache?

Once you cache a file, it is not directly written to disk (even small caches can help). There is at least one write operation per incoming data block, but any write/read operation besides, is technically unecessary once the cache has the data. So if you e.g. upload a data block to different sources, you don't have to reread it every time from disk. Also writing parts of blocks (usually bittorrent clients download several at a time) is not so stressy, that means in a preallocated file, the arm does not have to jump in different positions in the file just to write every piece of new block data. (the block is to be completed in the cache and only then written to hdd). Even small RAM caches can be very usefull.
Ok Im now more confident with my pc..thanks alot cheers...
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Old 2007-03-22, 09:09   Link #24
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migufuchi Fusutsu View Post
Edit: I was rebooting my pc and suddenly the boot was slow all of the sudden this happened..
Need not be related to your hdd. What are the details of the error report?

And when you start regedit, what are the entries of:

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon\notify

edit:

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/shellexview.html

There you can see which shellextensions are tried to be loaded (if there is one from a previous Windows installation, there might be trouble). How did you actually install Windows? Did you rearrange Documents and Settings folder somehow, or did you completely move the Windows directory, or maybe you erased some version of Windows, that had components linked to your current version?) Thats all pretty strange.

Last edited by Jinto; 2007-03-22 at 09:20. Reason: found something regarding shell extensions...
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Old 2007-03-23, 03:51   Link #25
toru310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Need not be related to your hdd. What are the details of the error report?

And when you start regedit, what are the entries of:

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon\notify

edit:

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/shellexview.html

There you can see which shellextensions are tried to be loaded (if there is one from a previous Windows installation, there might be trouble). How did you actually install Windows? Did you rearrange Documents and Settings folder somehow, or did you completely move the Windows directory, or maybe you erased some version of Windows, that had components linked to your current version?) Thats all pretty strange.
Actually when I rebooted my pc again it's up and running again maybe it's just one of does temporary problems...?

Ok so this is how it happened I recovered my files from the other drive which I accidentally formatted so all the files are gone but I recovered it and the instruction said that when you finished getting all your files back you should reinstall windows and I did so I just over righted It and done...P.S. Not using a fake XP...
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Old 2007-03-23, 04:23   Link #26
Jinto
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Hm, thats not what I wanted to imply (its not related to using a "fake XP"). Did you by coincidence recover parts of the old documents and settings folder? Well it seems not to be of any concern now (since it is running), I am just curious.
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Old 2007-03-23, 04:47   Link #27
Tiberium Wolf
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Fragmentation? You ppl should use mIRC for example and then download like 10 files at the same time. After they finish you should be surprised by the amount of fragments that each file has!
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Old 2007-03-23, 08:40   Link #28
toru310
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Hm, thats not what I wanted to imply (its not related to using a "fake XP"). Did you by coincidence recover parts of the old documents and settings folder? Well it seems not to be of any concern now (since it is running), I am just curious.
Well I just recovered the files that I need no os or system files just the files...

Thanks for the help btw!!

Edit: One more thing the program you showed me what's that for? And when you say "there might be trouble" what do you mean?

A question how can your computer crash??? Any reason why this things happen?

Last edited by toru310; 2007-03-23 at 09:11.
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Old 2007-03-23, 13:55   Link #29
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Migufuchi Fusutsu View Post
A question how can your computer crash??? Any reason why this things happen?
A computer crash generally refers to the operating system becoming unoperable. It can happen in many ways: malware; software doing things that it shouldn't (and having major impacts on the OS); user-induced error (user doing things that they shouldn't); it's even possible that corruption could be caused by hardware faults (failing RAM/hard drive).

I've crashed my computer about four or five times over a span of using Windows 95, 98, and ME. I haven't experienced a crash with XP. Whether this is due to my becoming a more experienced user, or whether Windows has become more stable, I can't really say. I do believe that the operating systems are more robust, however, and that a system crash is more likely to be caused by malware than user error if you're a Windows user. So practice smart computing, make sure you have a good and properly configured firewall and virus scanner, and maybe run a spyware sweep every once in a while.
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Old 2007-03-23, 14:23   Link #30
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Migufuchi Fusutsu View Post
Well I just recovered the files that I need no os or system files just the files...

Thanks for the help btw!!

Edit: One more thing the program you showed me what's that for? And when you say "there might be trouble" what do you mean?

A question how can your computer crash??? Any reason why this things happen?
Regarding the trouble, I'ld say ignore what I said for now

A computer crash can be induced by malfunctioning hardware or software or human operator. Good robust software tries to catch as many malfunctions as possible. That means even so errors occur, the system tries to e.g. graceful degrate/rejuvenate/microreboot/selective retry/use recovery blocks/recovers via checkpointing/uses state scrubbing (there are many more possibilities to handle certain malfunctions). If the malfunction is too severe, and the system cannot recover from the effects caused by the malfunction, then the PC will crash.
Hardware errors are often hard to deal with, so recovering from severe hardware errors is often impossible.
Software errors are often easier to deal with (if you or the system knows how). In future systems will have something like operator undo, then the human component in the system is taken care of too


The program I was linking there, can list the shell extensions that are loaded at startup. I dont know if you ever encountered something like this, but some programs add stuff to your explorer. E.g. when you use mouse button right click, you'ld see something like "add to rar-archive" or the like... such things are shell extensions (there are other shell extensions which are not visible...). If such an extension is broken, but still linked to the explorer, then a winlogon error can occur. I think that explains, why I mentioned it, after you posted your error screen
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Old 2007-03-23, 18:32   Link #31
toru310
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Regarding the trouble, I'ld say ignore what I said for now

A computer crash can be induced by malfunctioning hardware or software or human operator. Good robust software tries to catch as many malfunctions as possible. That means even so errors occur, the system tries to e.g. graceful degrate/rejuvenate/microreboot/selective retry/use recovery blocks/recovers via checkpointing/uses state scrubbing (there are many more possibilities to handle certain malfunctions). If the malfunction is too severe, and the system cannot recover from the effects caused by the malfunction, then the PC will crash.
Hardware errors are often hard to deal with, so recovering from severe hardware errors is often impossible.
Software errors are often easier to deal with (if you or the system knows how). In future systems will have something like operator undo, then the human component in the system is taken care of too


The program I was linking there, can list the shell extensions that are loaded at startup. I dont know if you ever encountered something like this, but some programs add stuff to your explorer. E.g. when you use mouse button right click, you'ld see something like "add to rar-archive" or the like... such things are shell extensions (there are other shell extensions which are not visible...). If such an extension is broken, but still linked to the explorer, then a winlogon error can occur. I think that explains, why I mentioned it, after you posted your error screen
I see.....Another question they say when your hard drive is broken you'll here a tick tick sound...question is how load is the tick tick sound cause I'm monitoring my pc hehe got to be careful.....
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Old 2007-03-23, 18:40   Link #32
Jinto
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Some hdds are very loud other not. The noise level I'ld not be too concerned about. What is far more important is, does it sound repetitive (like trying to reread a certain part for several times). This is a very distincitve sound, I think you will recognise it once you hear it (drrrrrd, short break, drrrrrrd, short break, drrrrrrd... very repetitive (like 10 or more times) and always the same length of the "drrrrrd, short break" parts)
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Old 2007-03-23, 18:56   Link #33
toru310
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Some hdds are very loud other not. The noise level I'ld not be too concerned about. What is far more important is, does it sound repetitive (like trying to reread a certain part for several times). This is a very distincitve sound, I think you will recognise it once you hear it (drrrrrd, short break, drrrrrrd, short break, drrrrrrd... very repetitive (like 10 or more times) and always the same length of the "drrrrrd, short break" parts)
Ahh ok i see thanks now I can tell if the drive is going to die...

One last question you have 2 drives c: and d:, c: has your os and etc and d: is a slave drive..So the question is when you watch a fansub in c and he gets the data from d is that stressy?
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Old 2007-03-23, 19:09   Link #34
Jinto
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Originally Posted by Migufuchi Fusutsu View Post
Ahh ok i see thanks now I can tell if the drive is going to die...

One last question you have 2 drives c: and d:, c: has your os and etc and d: is a slave drive..So the question is when you watch a fansub in c and he gets the data from d is that stressy?
There would be not much difference between c: and d: regarding this. However, if the pagefile.sys (vitrual memory paging file) is located on c: (which is very likely unless you reconfigured your system), and you have not enough RAM, so you video application has to dump some memory in the pagefile.sys.... then having the video on d: will be a little less stressy (but I'ld consider watching a fansub not very stressy at all, except maybe some weird h.264 HD encode)
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Old 2007-03-23, 19:35   Link #35
toru310
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Understood..Thanks again for the info.

Last edited by toru310; 2007-03-24 at 19:13.
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Old 2007-03-24, 19:13   Link #36
toru310
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Ok this is so weird again, when I'm booting my pc something pop up in the booting it says recovered windows files or something is that what you call a bad sector? This happened to me before but with a crappy os and then suddenly all my recently used programs are all gone in the start menu ^^(the programs are all intact in my pc and working). Is this a big problem or just a temporary problem that can be ignored?



Side topic: what blue screen of death or bsod?
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Old 2007-03-24, 19:59   Link #37
Jinto
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Well, not necessarily. See, when you have a bad sector, then files can go missing. As a result, Windows tries to recover them. But there are many other reasons, why the files were corrupted/went missing. It would be a good idea to look in the Windows event viewer. Maybe some severe error is listed there (that could be a good hint, to find the actual reason).

A blue screen of death is a blue error screen, that is shown, before Windows stops to operate and reboots. It usually is a safety mechanism to prevent consequential damage of errors that are violating important contracts/constraints.
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Old 2007-03-24, 22:00   Link #38
toru310
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Well, not necessarily. See, when you have a bad sector, then files can go missing. As a result, Windows tries to recover them. But there are many other reasons, why the files were corrupted/went missing. It would be a good idea to look in the Windows event viewer. Maybe some severe error is listed there (that could be a good hint, to find the actual reason).

A blue screen of death is a blue error screen, that is shown, before Windows stops to operate and reboots. It usually is a safety mechanism to prevent consequential damage of errors that are violating important contracts/constraints.
I see, I heard that there are programs that can fix bad sector problems is that true?

Edit: how can you view event viewer I forgot...
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Old 2007-03-24, 22:17   Link #39
Jinto
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Fixing bad sectors. Well if the sector is bad due to a permanent harware failure, there is only one way to fix such a sector... making it inaccessible. Usually the sector will be treated like a no-go zone then. A bad sector that is never used isn't so bad right?

However, I'ld rather buy a new hdd, instead of waiting for the next error on the drive (and wasting my time with fixing these errors). I did this once with one of my Maxtor drives. This drive went from bad to worse, I gave up when I could not write to the drive anymore.

howto: event viewer

http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=k...08427&x=7&y=18
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Old 2007-03-24, 22:53   Link #40
toru310
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Fixing bad sectors. Well if the sector is bad due to a permanent harware failure, there is only one way to fix such a sector... making it inaccessible. Usually the sector will be treated like a no-go zone then. A bad sector that is never used isn't so bad right?

However, I'ld rather buy a new hdd, instead of waiting for the next error on the drive (and wasting my time with fixing these errors). I did this once with one of my Maxtor drives. This drive went from bad to worse, I gave up when I could not write to the drive anymore.

howto: event viewer

http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=k...08427&x=7&y=18

With the windows have recovered the file in booting sequence is that a threat? or should I just ignore it? It's kinda weird because all the recent short cuts in the start button disappeared weird...


Also if I go to event viewer I can see the errors right? So what else can I accomplish there?
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