AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-03-23, 15:01   Link #41
Sinaura
Fat Warlord
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
No I'm not, you do realize that training isn't a one way thing right? Since Sasuke was trained by Oro Sasuke trained his own abilities.
That's why I corrected the "obtain" because you make it sound like it was somehow given to him just like that. Under Oro's tutelage Sasuke's skills became what they are today just like Asuma trained Shika whereas their fighting style are entirely different.
That power was given to him, that knowledge; I'm talking about the many JUTSU that he learned from Oro, it WAS given to him. You are referring to the improvement of Sasuke's Sharingan abilities, as if I'm saying he obtained that from Oro, I'm talking about the jutsus that he obtained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
And I certainely don't prove your point, you are the one saying that Sasuke would have improved like that regardless, not me. If anything you contradict yourself since Kakashi would be equally useless if Sasuke would've polished his skills on his own regardless of who he trained with.
But he wouldn't. It's like saying that Naruto being trained to use the Kyubi's chakra by Jiraiya or Konohamaru during the Chuunin exam would be the same thing because none of them can use the Kyubi's chakra.
No I am not contradicting myself, because I said he would have polished his skills regardless, but Kakashi/Gai wouldn't be useless to Sasuke because, unlike Oro, they have found ways to counter the Sharingan and adapted to fighting against it. All Oro ever does against those eyes is get owned. If Sasuke confronts Itachi and it turns out Itachi's control over the Sharingan is still superior to Sasuke's control, at least then Sasuke has other options in fighting against it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I said exactly the opposite, I said "this is about polishing the abilities and strength of your student."
This is what you said that I was referring to, the same thing as saying "Sasuke polished his own abilities and skills"..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Sasuke didn't "obtain power" from Orochimaru. He trained his own abilities and power that will allow him -or not- to deal with Itachi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Read your own post if you don't understand where this statement comes from. Your sole point is that since Oro's jutsu were useless against Itachi's Sharingan then what Sasuke has learned is useless as well... Whereas he doesn't even use the same jutsu and also has the Sharingan to counter its effect as well. But even if he used the exct same jutsu you wouldn't make more sense, Sasuke's Chidori was useless against Itachi. Does that mean if Sasuke becomes 1000x faster it would still be useless? Of course not but it would still be the same jutsu.In Sasuke's case it's not about 1000x faster, though he very well might have greater physical skills than Orochimaru, but the fact that he's himself a Sharingan user which allows him to negate many advantages of Itachi's own Sharingan which was the reason why Oro's jutsu were useless in the first place.
Ok let me make myself more clear, I am talking about the JUTSUs that he learned directly from Oro. If they are useless against Itachi's Sharingan, they are useless, period. Sasuke being a sharingan user himself doesn't automatically make the jutsus that he learned from Oro useful against Itachi. They'll still be canceled/copied by Itachi regardless; I don't ever recall reading that a sharingan user can cancel out the use of the sharingan by another user (maybe except MS), so regardless those jutsu are useless. The battle will be won by the nin who is able to effectively fight against the Sharingan; Sasuke didn't learn how to do that with Oro, if anything, he would have learned that on his own, thus making my point valid that he didn't need Oro or it that is was pointless.
Sinaura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-23, 16:16   Link #42
MysticNinjaJay
Ninja Emperor
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinaura View Post
Since the previous chapters have revealed some things, I've concluded that Sasuke wasted all that time training under Oro. Undoubtedly the training consisted mostly of Oro teaching Sasuke forbidden, S-level jutsu. However, like Sasuke and Itachi said to Oro, "All your jutsus are useless against these eyes". So, I ask, what Sasuke could have possibly gained training under Oro to prepare him to fight Itachi. If ALL of Oro's jutsus are useless against the Sharingan, what point was there for Sasuke to learn those same jutsus that would be "useless" against Itachi's Sharingan? He would have been better off training under Gai or Jirayi.
The flaw in your argument is obviously that the difference between Oro and Itachi was primarily Sharingan.

Sasuke has the Sharingan which means that to even the score all he needs is the strength.

He was taught by one of the greatest geniuses of all times and surpassed his teacher.

I don't think that Itachi's comment to Oro was literal. He meant that he had the ability to render Orochimaru powerless merely with Sharingan making all of his special ninjutsu useless in the fight.

But he could likely do that to Jiraiya, Gai and pretty much anyone that does not wield Sharingan on an equal level to himself.

I think the ease in which Oro was defeated was up to circumstance. Had he fought from a distance and used the type of A+ level Ninjutsu moves he used on Sandaime he would have given Itachi far more trouble. Or else we are to assume that Kurenai, Kakashi and NARUTO could give Itachi more trouble in a fight.

Oro was either trying to perform his Immortality jutsu or was arrogant and tried to initiate the battle from a close distance but looked into Itachi's eyes just long enough to get caught in a powerful genjutsu he did not see coming.

Sasuke's jutsu learned from Oro would come in handy against Itachi in addition to his Sharingan abilities. Plus to get to Itachi he'd have to whip some Akatsuki ass along the way. The jutsu would come in handy there too.
__________________

Last edited by MysticNinjaJay; 2007-03-23 at 16:46.
MysticNinjaJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-23, 20:20   Link #43
Kotengu
KING RANSOM
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Location Location!
This is like asking why be a vigilate when you could be a cop instead? The reasons are fairly obvious. But I'll list them anyway
1. Konoha doesn't support vengance in any way (no forbidden jutsu or knowlege about itachi for that pourpose)
2. Oro is giving sasuke what he is ASKING for. They were basically just working toward SAUSKE's GOAL with oro's goals on the back burner.

next is the proof. Sasuke couldn't beat Kakashi or Sound 5 when he left. Now he can beat yammato, oro, and use sharingan genjutsu.

contrasting, naruto's improvement was getting faster with kagebushin, and being able to unleash more kyuubi chakra. That was the true waist of time. He didn't get info on sasuke or oro, he didn't learn new jutsu or even how to use elemntal jutsu (sasuke knew his B4 becoming a gennin), and all his improvement to beat an akatsuki happened AFTER the skip not before. Imagine what he could have accomplished with 2 years of that kind of training!
__________________
"Only Chakras can grab onto Chakras. That's common sense!" Killer Bee
Kotengu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-23, 22:15   Link #44
AvatarAlpha
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
I seem to misunderstand the entire basis of this topic's argument. If "all your jutsus are useless against these eyes," then the implication is that all jutsu is useless because the nature of the Sharingan is to counter/copy jutsu. If this is true, then it wouldn't matter who Sasuke learned jutsu from, including Kakashi, because Itachi would counter all of Sasuke's and possibly vice versa.

That being said Sasuke left to train with Oro to gain power, power doesn't necessarily mean jutsu. I believe what Sasuke told Naruto was that he left in order to cut bonds and learn hate. I don't believe anyone in Konoha could have trained Sasuke in this area better than Oro. How exactly does one learn to use the Sharingan? I'm guessing through practice, not only learning jutsu, but their counters as well. Kakashi may know a thousand jutsu, but considering Oro's objectives I'd bet Oro knows even more. So once again Oro appears to be the better choice.

And if the secret to fighting a Sharingan user is as Chiyo says is numbers or as Gai has implied taijutsu, then perhaps Oro's training of Sasuke's body was a better choice than learning to open gates from Gai which has negative affects on the body. As many have pointed out is seems that Sasuke has gained CS2 without any detriment to himself, unlike Naruto's training with Kyubi's chakra and FRS. After all it was said that Sharingan could copy Lee's taijutsu, but Sasuke's stamina couldn't match Lee's speed. Further evidence is that despite Sharingan Sasuke couldn't see the movements of Kyubi's chakra, therefore it seems possible that someone can out maneuver the Sharingan provided they are fast enough. Of course now that Sasuke can see Kyubi himself, it doesn't bold well for Naruto as he may have the stamina, but not the speed....

Therefore if Sasuke's stamina exceeds Itachi's then perhaps Sasuke can defeat Itachi after all. Also, Sasuke's repetition of Itachi's statement was only learned from that encounter with Oro. If Sasuke believed prior to the soul transfer jutsu that he could defeat Itachi with jutsu and only now realized that learning Oro's jutsu was indeed useless, then it may have feed his will to take over Oro's dimension because he truly couldn't learn anymore from Oro. I'm sure that if the soul transfer had been successful Susuke's body could have been trained even further in regards to stamina, but at that moment Sasuke had to choose (or forced) his freedom.

Last edited by AvatarAlpha; 2007-03-23 at 22:53. Reason: Others are posting spoiler info, so I removed the spoiler tags. Some grammar.
AvatarAlpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-24, 05:36   Link #45
SpiRo
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Serbia
Age: 29
My opinion is that this thread is very stupid and rediculous, made by Naruto-fans..

2.5 yrs wasted on Naruto and Sakura .. Jiraiya cant teach him how to defete and bring back Sasuke becouse he cant beat Oro and he never bring someone back.. like when Oro left village. And how he can beat Oro when Oro pwned 3th.

Same with Sakura ..
SpiRo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-24, 12:54   Link #46
Goshin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: somehwre between this world and the next
Send a message via AIM to Goshin Send a message via Yahoo to Goshin
3rd? third was an old man, it was a 3 on 1 battle, he finishes finishing 1st and second and first time but they regenerate like its nothing, by the time he gets the chance or realizes he has to use fuijin he is too weak to pull oro all the way in because he had a freaken sword moving through his bod as he struggled to pull oro in, it is not oro was stronger than death go but 3rd did not have the strenght left to pull him in. Oro is smart but he is not as strong as people really think he is. his snake eyes incite fear in their oponents and weakens them..

when he was fighting the sannins, he had a younger body then them, jiraya was under the effects of the drug that tsunade had given him. his chakra was unstable. tsunade on the other had had was weakened by kabuto because of fear of blood.

naturally however snake magic is said to be stronger than toad magic, toad magic stronger than snail magic, and snail magic stronger snake, hence orochimaru starts to get his ass kicked by tsunade, and orochimaru had to retreat.

about sasuke wasting 2.5 years however i don't think so the three sannins are the strongest in the series so far, orochimaru is actually a good teacher for sasuke, they share the same serious personality. if sasuke had stayed in konoha he would not be trained by a sannin, he can't control chakra like sakura, and jiraya doesn't want to to teach geniuses
__________________


"The Journey of thousand miles begins with the first step"

Goshin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-24, 13:30   Link #47
SpiRo
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Serbia
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
3rd? third was an old man, it was a 3 on 1 battle, he finishes finishing 1st and second and first time but they regenerate like its nothing, by the time he gets the chance or realizes he has to use fuijin he is too weak to pull oro all the way in because he had a freaken sword moving through his bod as he struggled to pull oro in, it is not oro was stronger than death go but 3rd did not have the strenght left to pull him in. Oro is smart but he is not as strong as people really think he is. his snake eyes incite fear in their oponents and weakens them..
i dont know what this have with anything but ok .. Orochimaru vs 3th was fair fight 1v1 no1 interfeered , and Orochi won .. so he is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
when he was fighting the sannins, he had a younger body then them, jiraya was under the effects of the drug that tsunade had given him. his chakra was unstable. tsunade on the other had had was weakened by kabuto because of fear of blood.
and this too but ok .. ppl fast forget that Orochimaru couldnt use hands or any tehnique and jutsu .. now imagine that jiraiya and tsunade couldnt use hand what would happen.. and at last ffs it was 2v1 fight !! Orochimaru was in much worse state then Jiraiya and Tsunade.

I just pointed that Naruto-fans just look some hole in comic so they can say " AHA Sasuke this .. "
I mean how can learning from one of the strongest sennins be waist .. that is absurd!

-Its like i made thread "2.5 yrs waisted on Naruto and Sakura" "their goal is to bring back Sasuke, and how they will do it when Jiraiya and Tsunade never saved Sasuke against Orochimaru" or "how they will do it when they dont have bring back teleportation jutsu" ..
SpiRo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-24, 21:42   Link #48
Syndicate
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinaura View Post
Obviously I DID understand what you said, which is why I said it was POINTLESS for Sasuke to learn the SAME jutsus from Oro that Itachi said were useless against his Sharingan and genjutsu, I don't think you understand what I am saying.
yo sinaura

seriously if sasuke was still in konoha he would be a wuss now. Training isnt 1 + 1 = 2

1) If you want to be able to have experience which is what sasuke needed and skill he needs to learn the standard basic. even if they are those are S rank jounins stuff that itachi also knows. If he was in konoha he wouldnt know them and probabaly no summoning which he then probably also wouldnt be able to counter if he fought itachi

2) Also saying oro was useless against itachii thus sasuke is useless agaianst itachi because he learned from oro is based on nothing but flawed arguments

reasons
- what we know is oro only used 1 technique on itachi we didnt see any scratches or any other crap he probabay tried to take him off guard and take his body. didnt work so came up with a seal. is sasuke going to that same thing hell no

- Who says that certain skills done by sasuke might not work even if oro tried them. Are you the person to rule out what is effective against itachi

3) difference with oro and sasuke is sasuke has sharingan thus oro vs itachi and sasuke vs itachi is not equal

4) there nothing worng with learning anything even if it might be in effective. Learning is always good taking in account that sasuke laerned more then he ever did in konoha

Further more sasuke even acknowleged that he was a weakling before i don see how you can say that it was useless. You should say i still think he still isnt prepared yet to fight Itachi which i agree with based on the fact that oro's skill wasnt enough and itachi undoubtfully would have grown too. but saying that sasuke training is a waste is plain BS
Syndicate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-25, 18:44   Link #49
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinaura View Post
That power was given to him, that knowledge; I'm talking about the many JUTSU that he learned from Oro, it WAS given to him. You are referring to the improvement of Sasuke's Sharingan abilities, as if I'm saying he obtained that from Oro, I'm talking about the jutsus that he obtained.
You are not answering to anything you quote.
"Since Sasuke was trained by Oro Sasuke trained his own abilities.
That's why I corrected the "obtain" because you make it sound like it was somehow given to him just like that. Under Oro's tutelage Sasuke's skills became what they are today just like Asuma trained Shika whereas their fighting style are entirely different."

I'm definitively not refering to Sasuke's Sharingan abilities alone. I am refering to his skills as a whole. I am also saying that "Sasuke trained" and "Orochimaru trained Sasuke" means the same thing here since training doesn't work one way and require both the student and teacher's effort.

Quote:
No I am not contradicting myself, because I said he would have polished his skills regardless, but Kakashi/Gai wouldn't be useless to Sasuke because, unlike Oro, they have found ways to counter the Sharingan and adapted to fighting against it. All Oro ever does against those eyes is get owned. If Sasuke confronts Itachi and it turns out Itachi's control over the Sharingan is still superior to Sasuke's control, at least then Sasuke has other options in fighting against it.
Not only you were contradicting yourself but you don't make sense with this contradiction : Sasuke polishing his skills alone regardless of being taught by Orochimaru? Yeah right.
Sasuke has already a way to counter the Sharingan : he's a Sharingan user himself. Kakashi's method was the exact same thing except he doesn't have the ability to resist Itachi contrary to Sasuke and Gai's a waste of time for this very reason since it also counters Sasuke own Sharingan attacks.

Quote:
This is what you said that I was referring to, the same thing as saying "Sasuke polished his own abilities and skills"..
Again. Sasuke polishing his own abilities and power under Oro's tutelage and [Oro] polishing the abilities and strength of [his] student mean the same thing.

Quote:
Ok let me make myself more clear, I am talking about the JUTSUs that he learned directly from Oro. If they are useless against Itachi's Sharingan, they are useless, period. Sasuke being a sharingan user himself doesn't automatically make the jutsus that he learned from Oro useful against Itachi. They'll still be canceled/copied by Itachi regardless; I don't ever recall reading that a sharingan user can cancel out the use of the sharingan by another user (maybe except MS), so regardless those jutsu are useless. The battle will be won by the nin who is able to effectively fight against the Sharingan; Sasuke didn't learn how to do that with Oro, if anything, he would have learned that on his own, thus making my point valid that he didn't need Oro or it that is was pointless.
I could re-write the last paragraph of my previous post here since you answered completely beside the point.
Both Sasuke and Itachi are high level Sharingan user, both can read and counter jutsu accordingly so either Sasuke or Itachi's control over the Sharingan is significantly greater or they are as good as each other and will cancel their advantage out or a bit both.
In the first case the person who has showed the most impressive control over regular Sharingan bare Itachi is Sasuke himself who has done things that Kakashi can only dream off, in the second case their abilities outside the Sharingan will play an important role and Orochimaru was a perfect teacher to improve Sasuke's overall skills.
Hence why in all cases this last 2.5 years were all but wasted in relation to Sasuke's power.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-28, 00:44   Link #50
raikage
日本語を食べません!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotengu View Post
This is like asking why be a vigilate when you could be a cop instead?
I was going to say something like this, but with different reasoning:

A cop has to do their beat, has to do paperwork and arraignments and stay overtime to cover parades and festivals.

A vigilante gets to just go out, kick some <posterior>, and leave.

If Sasuke had stayed in Konoha, he would have gotten the opportunity to train -- in between escorting customers, low-level assasinations, guest lectures at the Academy, guard post, etc. etc.

Instead, he went off with a teacher (who is more knowledgeable than just about anyone in the Leaf) and got to devote all his time and strength to training.
raikage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-28, 01:06   Link #51
tkdtiger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage View Post
I was going to say something like this, but with different reasoning:

A cop has to do their beat, has to do paperwork and arraignments and stay overtime to cover parades and festivals.

A vigilante gets to just go out, kick some <posterior>, and leave.

If Sasuke had stayed in Konoha, he would have gotten the opportunity to train -- in between escorting customers, low-level assasinations, guest lectures at the Academy, guard post, etc. etc.

Instead, he went off with a teacher (who is more knowledgeable than just about anyone in the Leaf) and got to devote all his time and strength to training.
Vigilantie isn't that simple. There are legal forms of vigilante. In fact a neighborhood watch is listed as a legal form of vigilante practice.
tkdtiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-03-28, 12:39   Link #52
Sabaku Kyu
The Ironman
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdtiger View Post
Vigilantie isn't that simple. There are legal forms of vigilante. In fact a neighborhood watch is listed as a legal form of vigilante practice.
I'd say it's that simple. A vigilante, legal or not, has no obligations except what they set upon themselves which is the point raikage was trying to make. Had Sasuke stayed in Konoha, he would've had to devote much of his time to responsibilites that were outside his goals.
Sabaku Kyu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.