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View Poll Results: Kanon 2006 Total Series Rating
Perfect 10 235 52.57%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 135 30.20%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 8.28%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 5.37%
6 out of 10 : Average 9 2.01%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 4 0.89%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.22%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.45%
Voters: 447. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-03-24, 11:40   Link #81
Kyuusai
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Wow, Skane. That was... EXCELLENT. If only I had the time and gumption to say as much. Your writeup highlighted a lot of thematic points that didn't make it from the game, which I really appreciate. Time to hit the books so I can improve my Japanese in order to play for myself...

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Fortunately… that was the only real speed bump. If you cover up your eyes and ears and pretended that something else better happened instead, then the rest of the Ayu & Yuuichi (henceforth A&Y) romance was pretty well laid out.
I'll agree that was the only real speed bump, but I couldn't say that the rest of the romance was laid out well, because I never really interpreted it as being romance. It was awfully sweet, but always seemed sibling-like and platonic.

That's not just the Nayuki fanboy in me talking: Much as I may dislike that former anime incarnation, that wasn't the case in the 2002 version.

I think if they'd skipped the kiss scene and properly rounded out Nayuki's arc (along with a few other points you mentioned), the entire series would have benefitted.

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
If I, a non-Nayuki-fanboy can feel this strongly about Nayuki’s treatment in the anime, I shudder to imagine how the real Nayuki-fanboys feel.

“We must die… in the snow… Life… has no more meaning…”
Oh, sure, give me a good idea just in time for SPRING. Thanks a lot, man!
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Old 2007-03-24, 11:43   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Sai the Dreamer View Post
The point is that Misuzu's arc got more than half of Air dedicated to it, whereas Ayu's got less time than Mai's (if you exclude Nayuki and Sayuri's stories, respectively). It really was rushed, no matter how you look at it.
Something to keep in mind, though, is what I've been saying all along: a lot of the archs were developed simulataneously when possible, so saying that an arch got X episodes isn't always accurate. The stories do have to diverge at some point, which is when we got into different girls exclusively (I think this is what people are mistaking for archs), but Ayu's arch especially runs through most of the series alongside other girls' and simply diverges where necessary. Makoto's arch was actually just as long as the other girls', because they all overlap; she simply got one or two more exclusive episodes.
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Old 2007-03-24, 12:01   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Sai the Dreamer View Post
~ This isn't perfect, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Plus this way, the other girls still play an important role, and don't get shafted. The point is that Misuzu's arc got more than half of Air dedicated to it, whereas Ayu's got less time than Mai's (if you exclude Nayuki and Sayuri's stories, respectively). It really was rushed, no matter how you look at it. ~
Hmm... that's not quite right. Out of all the five girls, Ayu was the one that received the most character development. You mustn't forget the flashbacks. The flashbacks are very prevalent and help to set up for Ayu's focused arc. Additionally, Ayu got to interact (or "meddle" if you want to be leery) with all the other girls. Something that none of the other four can claim.

Furthermore, Ep06 has the movie date. Then there are the various episodes where Yuuichi assists her in finding her lost item.

The whole point I am trying to make here is, although you can more or less separate the arcs into character-focused arcs, the girls are usually not absent in the other arcs unless dead or hospitalised.

However, I do agree with you that the pacing eventually felt rushed. I still think 39 episodes would have been ideal to lay out everything and allow for a truly entrancing pace. Maybe another remake in ten years time?

Cheers.
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Old 2007-03-24, 12:56   Link #84
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Oh no, I understand that we had been delving into the girls' stories since the start, but one thing AIR and Kanon were good at is portraying the girls right before their inevitable tragedy, and making you feel sorry for them as a result. Makoto, Mai, and Shiori all got plenty of in-story buildup, which helped make the ending that much more emotional. OTOH, they spent all of a few minutes doing this with Ayu right before she got the axe. To add to that, most of the prior interaction with Ayu occured before Makoto's story, which came about 12 episodes before Ayu's disappearance, so by that point it served no purpose. It's like they boiled the water, let it become cold, and didn't bother reheating it before serving.
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Old 2007-03-24, 16:20   Link #85
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Sai the Dreamer is probably talking about how diluted ayu's development was...instead of going in with everything like what they did with mai and makoto, ayu's development was rather spread out between all the other girls popping in and out from time to time (except the final eps) much like nayuki's development/arc (wait...did she even get one? ) ~ so the emotion wasnt enough to push some people over the edge...and i also think the same as well...kinda disappointed that i didnt sob...not at ayu's arc neways (shiori made me close) ~ it was more anguish than sadness ~
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Old 2007-03-24, 21:10   Link #86
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My impressions, part 1

I guess I should give my impressions now. Ha, I don't even know what to write, or where to start. I guess I should start with some random thoughts. Let's start with the main character, Aizawa Yuuichi.

I didn't really like him. I don't know why, he felt, ahh, generic. He felt like a persona of the main character of a video game. I mean, that's exactly what he is. Kinda like the old Yuuichi, but entirely different. I guess he's better than alot of harem leads, but really, so what? By the end, I didn't really end up knowing as much as I wanted to know about Yuuichi. The biggest fault, to me, was the lack of narration. I imagine the game was filled with it, and I think this contributed as to why the show felt lacking.

Maybe I should talk about something else now.

The story structure, I liked it. There's a bunch of ways that it can be put, but first I'll present this one. Home -> School -> Town -> Home. The first part focuses on Yuuichi at home as he gets used to his new life. The next part focuses upon the school Yuuichi attends, and his school life. After that, Yuuichi starts to spend his time around about the town, and then he finally comes back home. This isn't exactly literal, but just an impression.

Even beginning with the first episode was… interesting. It started with Yuuichi on the train, then cuts quickly to him on the bench, waiting. The place that'll be used alot, in front of the train station. There, we are introduced to Nayuki and Yuuichi's sarcastic humor.

Nayuki and Yuuichi are good friends, that's what we're supposed to see here. Although Yuuichi teases Nayuki often, it's done in a playful matter. During the tour of the town, we find that he's like this with everybody, specifically through his interactions with Kitagawa and Misaka.

The introduction of the various characters was also well done. Shiori had just a minor scene that Yuuichi will soon forget, and with Mai and Sayuri, it showed that they were important, that they were friends, and that Mai is friendly with animals. The most important, was probably with Kitagawa Jun, and Misaka Kaori. It showed how Yuuichi generally treats other people, as well as how Nayuki perceives everything. This first scene probably gives more insight into Nayuki than any other.

And then we get into the introduction of Ayu. Waiting outside the store, Ayu runs right into him. After the attack, Ayu leads Yuuichi into Hyakkaya, where we first hear Canon. This scene was well done.

We don't really learn anything about Ayu here. She is kept mysterious. She comes out of nowhere and simply disappears after the meeting. Although little is learned of Sayuri or Mai in this episode, they're not shown as being mysterious. Ayu is, she's only ephemerally present. Perhaps this could be the first indication of her being less than real. In any case, shortly after Ayu leaves, we're left with the immortal phrase:

"Usotsuki."

At first, it seemed a little unfair to Yuuichi. He himself was waiting for two hours just the previous day, while Nayuki didn't have to wait nearly that long. Of course, Yuuichi had the knowledge that Nayuki would (eventually) come, but Nayuki couldn't be as sure. However, by the end of the episode, we have a pretty good hint that it probably wasn't the first time, nor was it going to be the last time. That by itself seems to intensify the feelings about Nayuki's abandonment.

At the end of the episode, we see the first of many flashback scenes. Each and everytime with the same music. Most the time, we see them right after Yuuichi goes to sleep, or right before he wakes up. Either way, it's clearly indicated that it's his dream, his memories that he's re-remembering. So why? Why now?

Some of the memories were probably triggered through the environment. The town. However, if it was simply that, he would've had a dream the night before, of the day he arrived in town. So, I think it was triggered by Ayu, or rather the Ayu Yuuichi created after he arrived. Yes, I still hold the rather controversal belief. Ayu was created by Yuuichi. Their meeting together triggered memories which Yuuichi saw in his dreams.

The first dream was basically a redo of the earlier scene of the episode. This repetition becomes a theme for the series, everything happens over and over again.

The first episode set the groundwork the series, and it did it very well. It did its job well, although it probably appeared to be too generic for some. My complaints about the episode would be Yuuichi's narration. Looking back, it seems out of place, as he does it somewhat often here, it's basically gone by the end of the series. It now just seems out of character for him, but it's just a minor complaint. The next episode, however, was a complete disaster.

…and I think I'll end it here for now. I'll post more later.
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Old 2007-03-25, 02:11   Link #87
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A while back I started using the term "threads" to define story segments rather than "arcs" since more stories are interleaving their so-called arcs.
So... there's a Mai thread and an Ayu and Makoto thread that intersect or weave about each other for example. You can't really say "Mai got X eps and Shiori got Y" when in fact each had moments in many episodes -- many of which advanced their storyline.
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Old 2007-03-25, 12:23   Link #88
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People who think Kanon is the best story ever told and all other anime is a mere shadow of its greatness conveniently overlook the fact it’s based on a game where the goal is for the player to do the mattress mambo with high school girls.
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Old 2007-03-25, 12:30   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
A while back I started using the term "threads" to define story segments rather than "arcs" since more stories are interleaving their so-called arcs.
So... there's a Mai thread and an Ayu and Makoto thread that intersect or weave about each other for example. You can't really say "Mai got X eps and Shiori got Y" when in fact each had moments in many episodes -- many of which advanced their storyline.
Threads, huh? Reminds me of programming. It's not too different, either.
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Originally Posted by kauldron26 View Post
People who think Kanon is the best story ever told and all other anime is a mere shadow of its greatness conveniently overlook the fact it’s based on a game where the goal is for the player to do the mattress mambo with high school girls.
You've obviously never played the game. Besides, even if it is based on a game like that, how does it make for a lesser story?

In any case, who here is saying that Kanon is the best story ever told? Nobody so far has been saying anything like that.
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Old 2007-03-25, 12:46   Link #90
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Originally Posted by kauldron26 View Post
People who think Kanon is the best story ever told and all other anime is a mere shadow of its greatness conveniently overlook the fact it’s based on a game where the goal is for the player to do the mattress mambo with high school girls.
I'd just like to remind everyone not to feed the trolls
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Old 2007-03-25, 13:14   Link #91
Meophist
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I'd just like to remind everyone not to feed the trolls
Not even with bait?
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Old 2007-03-25, 14:12   Link #92
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Trolls simply blow their credibility out of the water. Now no matter where he posts, he won't be taken seriously because he doesn't do his research.

(of course, I don't think Kanon is the "greatest story ever told" and his sig indicates he's easily swayed by the crowd (the SHnY remark) but then that's just more hyperbole to add to his credibility damage ).

--brought over from another thread post about my .sig just to stay on course--
one of the high points of Kanon for me was some of the dialog: the various snappy back'n'forth sequences of wit. The Shiori sequence on spicy things, the "guess my secret" Nayuki ... the initial Ayu "complicated story" ... all just wonderful bits of well-paced humorous timing.

Last edited by Vexx; 2007-03-25 at 16:28.
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Old 2007-03-25, 15:59   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
Not even with bait?
Especially not with bait.


It's obvious that he's about as credible as an atheist giving a theology lecture, but I'd like to be sure we don't make this thread explode
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Old 2007-03-25, 16:58   Link #94
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Especially not with bait.


It's obvious that he's about as credible as an atheist giving a theology lecture, but I'd like to be sure we don't make this thread explode
Bah, you're boring…
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Old 2007-03-25, 18:03   Link #95
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Bah, you're boring…
No, I've just OD'ed on pointless bickering several times in these here Kanon threads.
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Old 2007-03-25, 18:06   Link #96
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Now go and post all of this over Animenfo
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Old 2007-03-25, 18:43   Link #97
Meophist
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No, I've just OD'ed on pointless bickering several times in these here Kanon threads.
Well, I'm suffering from withdrawal. In any case, let's see what else I could say about the series…
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Old 2007-03-25, 21:18   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
However, I do agree with you that the pacing eventually felt rushed. I still think 39 episodes would have been ideal to lay out everything and allow for a truly entrancing pace. Maybe another remake in ten years time?
Cheers.
Actually, just having the two more episodes that were rumored to be at one time probably would have been enough to fix the pacing issues. That would have given almost an hour and twenty minutes to cover what was given 24 minutes in the 24th episode. Much could have been made right with the additional time...

As for another remake in ten years time... well it only took four years in between versions this time. If the franchise remains this successful, I suspect you will see something more in an even shorter timeframe. Only question will be if it will be a live action drama (the relative lack of CG required makes that a reasonable possibility), or a sequel following some of our secondary characters through another winter...
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Old 2007-03-26, 01:54   Link #99
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Actually, just having the two more episodes that were rumored to be at one time probably would have been enough to fix the pacing issues. That would have given almost an hour and twenty minutes to cover what was given 24 minutes in the 24th episode. Much could have been made right with the additional time...

As for another remake in ten years time... well it only took four years in between versions this time. If the franchise remains this successful, I suspect you will see something more in an even shorter timeframe. Only question will be if it will be a live action drama (the relative lack of CG required makes that a reasonable possibility), or a sequel following some of our secondary characters through another winter...
Two more episodes might have solved the issue of the pacing in the last few episodes, but what I meant by 39 episodes was the possibility of including EVERYTHING that is a major theme from all five paths. This is especially true for Nayuki.

For example, Shiori. They did not mention about her love of drama, and how she wanted to live out the rest of her life as though she was in some sort of tragic drama (think Winter Sonata).

She initially wanted to commit suicide, but thanks to her chance meeting with Yuuichi, she had a change of heart, and when she met Yuuichi again, she decided to act out a fantasy with him in order to ease the pain of her sister's ignorance of her.

Much like how they winked at game-players with that flash of Sayuri's wrist, they winked at game-players about this particular trait of Shiori's by referencing to various famous tales like Cinderella.

Shiori loves acting. Hence all the initial lies to Yuuichi. I couldn't argue adequately about her lies because the anime was not forthcoming about Shiori's acting. Long ago I dropped a hint, when is lying not lying? The answer being, "When it is acting."

Hence the smiling-act as well. She was pretending to be some sort of tragic heroine character in a tragic drama, and she was using Yuuichi to act out her "fantasy". Things got complicated of course, when she started to really like Yuuichi. One of Yuuichi's role in Shiori's path was to bring her out of her fantasy world and show her that real life can be just as good, if not better.

The reconciliation was very touching because Kaori finally accepted the reality of the situation and re-embraced her little sister's existence; while Shiori finally got to experience a reality that was so much better than her "fantastical life/lie".

Which would also have been brilliant for setting up the irony in Yuuichi's own situation, in that he too was living a delusion and not accepting reality.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-03-26, 09:35   Link #100
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a question:
does it means that the scenes with Ayu were like flashback kinda scenes, whereas the scenes about the Fox and that Sickly girl really did happen? and the scene where they were digging around for Ayu's lost item? those all happened right?

though i really enjoyed this series, its left me kinda confused as to what really happend and what didnt...

agree that if the series was longer, i probably would understand better cos they would have explained more?
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