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Old 2007-03-27, 02:02   Link #61
Rurouni Zeke
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
i wanted to say this but im little tired ^^

Both of this have two sides, past of the man and motive .. and his past and motive are on his side..

But then if all r selfish then that dont respond leadership..
Well, if everyone were selfish to a fault, then you're right in your assertion that no one would respond to leadership. But again, some people are more selfish than others. Case in point: Kakashi tells Sasuke not to leave the village; Sasuke doesn't want to stay because he believes he's being held back. His selfish motives are to gain power from Oro and to eventually kill Itachi using said power. Sasuke doesn't respond to Kakashi's leadership and leaves anyway. On the other hand: Tsunade tells Shikamaru to lead a squad to chase after Sasuke; Shikamaru doesn't want to go because it's troublesome and could end up being a suicide mission anyway. His selfish motives are to sit on his ass and to preserve his own life. But Shikamaru does respond to Tsunade's leadership anyway, and he takes the squad to chase after Sasuke. His selfishness wasn't to a degree that it wouldn't allow him to listen to Tsunade.

If I still misinterpreted what you said, then I'm sorry. I'm tired too (stupid homework
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Old 2007-03-27, 03:26   Link #62
amOKchen
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Id rather see Orochimaru action then Sasuke action ;<
cry @ me..
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Old 2007-03-27, 04:51   Link #63
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
u only read that part from whole post and others ?
No, but it sums up several other parts...as well as being a part I had something to post about.
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Old 2007-03-27, 08:10   Link #64
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sasuke did put the world in danger when he went to orochimaru. even akatsuki is afraid of orochimaru gaining the sharingran. sasuke kind of redeemed himself being defeating orochimaru, if and after he kills itachi he will probably feel empty inside and his will weaken. meaning that orochimaru might take over. if orochimaru is to take possesion of the sharingran there is no telling what he will do.

so naruto only worried about retrieving sasuke is not that bad.

sasuke is still a good leader i think, a good leader can be selfish. as long as he leads well. of course he won't be like i won't let my friends get hurt and and jump in front of kunai
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Old 2007-03-27, 08:39   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
As SpirO said, if he was truly a loner he wouldn't be forming a team.
We donít know yet what is his purpose of recruiting this people, I will take a wild guest and say it isnt for having company.

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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
Wait ! Now it is not good when u wanna save someones life ? Till now u talked that leader must have that, care for others ..

And Sasuke will fight Itachi alone without anyones help ..
I didnít say that, read my pos carefully, Iím talking about specifically of the will of the followers, to some point its understandable that a shinoby willing to give his life for the sake of the leader, always when they feel inspired and shares the leader vision.

However My point was specific to Sasuke and Sasuke Sacrificing the life of his teammates, regardless of the will of his followers, and in his case, I doubt that his team is going to share the vision of Sasukeís goal.

Maybe Sasuke is going to fight Itachi alone, but that doesnít mean in the path to get there he is not going to use any help, as he already have used Help from Oro, Kakashi and Naruto.
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Old 2007-03-27, 09:25   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke View Post
Well, if everyone were selfish to a fault, then you're right in your assertion that no one would respond to leadership. But again, some people are more selfish than others. Case in point: Kakashi tells Sasuke not to leave the village; Sasuke doesn't want to stay because he believes he's being held back. His selfish motives are to gain power from Oro and to eventually kill Itachi using said power. Sasuke doesn't respond to Kakashi's leadership and leaves anyway. On the other hand: Tsunade tells Shikamaru to lead a squad to chase after Sasuke; Shikamaru doesn't want to go because it's troublesome and could end up being a suicide mission anyway. His selfish motives are to sit on his ass and to preserve his own life. But Shikamaru does respond to Tsunade's leadership anyway, and he takes the squad to chase after Sasuke. His selfishness wasn't to a degree that it wouldn't allow him to listen to Tsunade.

If I still misinterpreted what you said, then I'm sorry. I'm tired too (stupid homework
Thats why i said u must take to concideration why that man acting selfish..

In Sasukes cose, becouse of his past and motive ... and in Shikamaru cose, i think i will die ..

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
However My point was specific to Sasuke and Sasuke Sacrificing the life of his teammates, regardless of the will of his followers, and in his case, I doubt that his team is going to share the vision of Sasuke’s goal.
And who know that Sasuke will wilingly sacrfice lifes for his cose ? If he is that kind of persone he would kill Naruto for MS.

they will follow him becouse they own him life .. when they do that task they will be free too go ..
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Old 2007-03-27, 09:45   Link #67
Rurouni Zeke
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
Thats why i said u must take to concideration why that man acting selfish..

In Sasukes cose, becouse of his past and motive ... and in Shikamaru cose, i think i will die ..
Well I understand that his past and motive drive his selfishness, but that still doesn't stop his being selfish to a fault. He left because he thought he wasn't getting stronger fast enough. That's what caused him to compromise Konoha's safety (by potentially giving Oro his body) in favor of his goal. There's no indication that just because he got owned after having trained in Konoha at age 12, he would NEVER become strong enough in Konoha to achieve his goal. He just couldn't stand to be helping with other things along with working towards his goal. One of the differences between his case and Shikamaru's case: Shikamaru's case directly conflicted with his goal to stay alive, but Sasuke's staying in Konoha and completing missions doesn't stop him from getting stronger. I can't really expand any more on this because I have to go to class.
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Old 2007-03-27, 10:30   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Please, one thing is getting the scroll from someone, the other is not calculating your selfish actions (which was basically what he did), and even so, you are just bluntly saying that Sasuke decision of giving the scroll to Oro was wrong.
its not selfish since its the freaking point to take scrolls from others. SO what because they(kabuto & team 7) talked they should be friends suddenly and not get the job(stealing scrolls) done. its about results sasuke at least knew they needed to make a move soon to get a scroll.

oro is a completely different thing. Sasuke is able to know the enemies strength(good ability) and he sensed this guy was way above their head. he wasnt in chuunin lvl you know doing all those things. which is why if they wanted to stay alive he made that choice. buttonline he knows when to fight and when not to which some don't. Not knowing when to stop can get your team group killed

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
for the rest of your post, I think you are misunderstanding me, Im not saying that a Good Leader is one that is going to prefer to save the life of his followers, than to achieve the goal, because I said Oro is a good leader.
your initial post indicated that a good leader IS someone who must saves his team by sacrificing himself because you say that sasuke is nots omeone willing to do that

you only metioned that oro had good leader capabilities

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
What I talked about wasThe will of your teammates, You can say that you are are going to make a good leader, when your followers put their life on the line if necessary willingly for the sake of the Goal (in the case of th Ninja World).
Thats what i believe too and how i think should work. But i dont think its should be THE recruiment of people dying.

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Sasuke's Goal is just vengeances and it lacks purpose. And been a Ninja thats the point, if his followers are not willing to give their life for Sasuke to Reach his goal or even Give a crap about it, then Sasuke sacrificing the life of his Teammates for his personal ambitions is just been a manipulator and could be called bad leadership.
actually a ninja isnt supposed to have a purpose at all kishi makes his own judgements on what he views as good but in our world ninja's werent supposed to have a purpose at all they merely tools so saying that he lacks purpose means he fits the category of how i view ninja's. we dont know yet to what extend they are going out. sasuke wants to personaly finish of itachi so probabaly his team wont even have to do much but himself. i dont think he wants suigetsu to have the sole credit of killing itachi and avenging the uchiha but himself. there probabaly going to do a kekkai like with oro.

about sasuke goal not having a purpose is for me not the case. why in my world of reasoning the crime of itachi has been left unpunished. This is my case is bad as the victems will have a felling of unsecurity in this case sasuke didnt have reassuring or justice which is why i can understand he takes it in his own hands its actually the fault of konoha not going after criminals like itachi more serious that we now have yet another drama like with naruto's kyuubi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Regarding this team, I doubt this team is going to Work for Sasuke's goal, rather they will follow him because he is recruiting them, I don't see them been driven by Sasuke's goal, but barely following Sasuke lead, and by no means thats an example of good leadership.
for me recruiting and leadership are 2 different things

we dont know what they will do when they go with him so i think its too early to make statements about his recruiting skills.

there was another example i would put forth to show why a good leader doenst need to die is

2 guys wat to go for team leader

one has good leader qualities but is unwillingly to die for the team
the other has bad leader qualities and is willing to die for the team

who would you pick as a team leader. my pick is the 1st since i know if i ask something to be done it will be done. while with the other i might get casualties and get a failed mission because he doenst have good leader quality's

@ asianknight the thing i take account for as a good leader is their capabilities as a leader in doing the job. our world history is filled with conquest and slavery and all other misfortune for others who lost. Now the fact that they were able to achieve those things makes that they have good leader capabilities if they didnt have those we would live in a world of peace but thats not the case. the romans where brutal conquerers but thos eleaders were damn good leaders. same for the mongols. reason why i said mongols because they had the biggest empire that we know of in our world. which tells me something about their capabilities.

@ rurouni i dont get your point man. Teams what i think you mean allways get an order from someone else like in konoha. In the case of sasuke and co its different its his personal or rather justice for his clan and those that died to finally bring justice (how selfish is that huh leaving a criminal out on the lose anyway/whatever). So at the end of the story it comes down to how willing is his group willing to do that. That has nothing to do with his leadership goals since they have different objective's maybe we dont even know what drives them. The fact that sasuke wants to kill itachi is for me a respectable thing cuz he does what konoha is unable to do cuz they is lame. Im trying to explain to you how i see it you see it as selfish that sasuke wants to bring justice to itachi i see it as honourable in the eyes to his clan the Uchiha. its like those

anime wher eyou see that a master of a dojo gets killed and the pupil take his revenge cuz the guy who kille dhim is left unpunished(aka bruce lee, jetli) i seriouslyd ont understand what drives most people for hating sasuke and saying all stuff like arrogant and selfish and stuff:s?

about the selfishness is it self for naruto to become hokage cuz he wants that if thats selfish then i think ima go nuts. sasuke wants to kill itachi is not selfish selfish and that dictionary actually doenst say it in which i would want it to be said. Selfishness is when you care & only see yourself with disregard of others,

Sasuke woul dbe selfish if for example he fought itachi and he had a chance of saving sakura who is being attacked by someone and he doenst take it but only concerns withhimself. Thats selfish. He isnt selfish for pursuing his goal. What i vaguely know is that when sasuke heard itachi was in the village who was after naruto. He went searching for naruto at once. If he was selfish he would go after itachi. Instead the author showed how he went from shop to shop to seek naruto how selfish is his goal huh. So he went after naruto he had in mind that naruto might be killed of so in that sense i felt he indeed took naruto into consideration before his goal.

this hate for sasuke really needs to stop cuz its just pointless

Last edited by Syndicate; 2007-03-27 at 11:04.
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Old 2007-03-27, 12:09   Link #69
Rurouni Zeke
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Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post

@ rurouni i dont get your point man. Teams what i think you mean allways get an order from someone else like in konoha. In the case of sasuke and co its different its his personal or rather justice for his clan and those that died to finally bring justice (how selfish is that huh leaving a criminal out on the lose anyway/whatever). So at the end of the story it comes down to how willing is his group willing to do that. That has nothing to do with his leadership goals since they have different objective's maybe we dont even know what drives them. The fact that sasuke wants to kill itachi is for me a respectable thing cuz he does what konoha is unable to do cuz they is lame. Im trying to explain to you how i see it you see it as selfish that sasuke wants to bring justice to itachi i see it as honourable in the eyes to his clan the Uchiha. its like those

anime wher eyou see that a master of a dojo gets killed and the pupil take his revenge cuz the guy who kille dhim is left unpunished(aka bruce lee, jetli) i seriouslyd ont understand what drives most people for hating sasuke and saying all stuff like arrogant and selfish and stuff:s?

about the selfishness is it self for naruto to become hokage cuz he wants that if thats selfish then i think ima go nuts. sasuke wants to kill itachi is not selfish selfish and that dictionary actually doenst say it in which i would want it to be said. Selfishness is when you care & only see yourself with disregard of others,

Sasuke woul dbe selfish if for example he fought itachi and he had a chance of saving sakura who is being attacked by someone and he doenst take it but only concerns withhimself. Thats selfish. He isnt selfish for pursuing his goal. What i vaguely know is that when sasuke heard itachi was in the village who was after naruto. He went searching for naruto at once. If he was selfish he would go after itachi. Instead the author showed how he went from shop to shop to seek naruto how selfish is his goal huh. So he went after naruto he had in mind that naruto might be killed of so in that sense i felt he indeed took naruto into consideration before his goal.

this hate for sasuke really needs to stop cuz its just pointless
I REALLY had trouble understanding that post, but I'll try to respond to it. Now. With regards to the first part, I think I already had a post about why I think that the type of team doesn't necessarily absolve Sasuke from potentially being a bad leader. Additionally, I never questioned the honor or whatever in his goal to kill Itachi. I've been pretty much talking about are his methods. Which are selfish to a fault in my opinion.

You seem to have a problem with my belief that everyone is at least a bit selfish, and that's ok, but that's also a completely different discussion that I don't want to get into right now. I think you're expressing some of the same things that SpiRo did, and I've already given my opinion on such things. If we disagree, then that's ok.

And finally, I'll re-quote a couple things from there in isolation:
Quote:
i seriouslyd ont understand what drives most people for hating sasuke and saying all stuff like arrogant and selfish and stuff:s?
Quote:
this hate for sasuke really needs to stop cuz its just pointless
This is where I stop being reasonable because I'm getting annoyed. IT'S NOT ABOUT HATE GODDAMMIT. IT'S NOT. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU OR THINKS THAT SASUKE HAS SOME NEGATIVE CHARACTERISTICS DOESN'T MEAN THEY HATE HIM. People say he's selfish because he IS. People say he's arrogant because he IS. For the last freaking time, IT'S PART OF HIS CHARACTER. He's not without flaws. Now if anyone else comes at me with that bullshit about hate, I won't be responding to them at all.
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Old 2007-03-27, 12:33   Link #70
Rurik
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
And who know that Sasuke will wilingly sacrfice lifes for his cose ? If he is that kind of persone he would kill Naruto for MS.
He didn’t kill Naruto because he didn’t wanted to do what Itachi wanted him to do, he choose his own path, and yes, the current Sasuke has shown he will do anything to anybody if its for the sake of his cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syndicate View Post
its not selfish since its the freaking point to take scrolls from others. SO what because they(kabuto & team 7) talked they should be friends suddenly and not get the job(stealing scrolls) done. its about results sasuke at least knew they needed to make a move soon to get a scroll.

oro is a completely different thing. Sasuke is able to know the enemies strength(good ability) and he sensed this guy was way above their head. he wasnt in chuunin lvl you know doing all those things. which is why if they wanted to stay alive he made that choice. buttonline he knows when to fight and when not to which some don't. Not knowing when to stop can get your team group killed.
Just like He did tell Kabuto real strength? Which it is, at Kakashi level? Please, Sasuke rationality of taking the Scroll from Kabuto was based on that he needed a Scroll quick or else they were going to fail, he didn’t think anything else beyond that, at the end, the decision was made wihout taking anything else in consideration, a poor decision.


Quote:
your initial post indicated that a good leader IS someone who must saves his team by sacrificing himself because you say that sasuke is nots omeone willing to do that

you only metioned that oro had good leader capabilities.
I didn’t say That it must save his team by sacrificing himself, let me re-post what I did say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I ask those "Sasuke is a good leader" supporters this: If Sasuke is faced with the choice of saving his team while sacrificing a Chance to kill his Brother, would he do that?

If the answer is No, then Sasuke isn’t a good leader. A good leader will put the team first, if those interfere with his personal ambitions.
So, basically I haven’t say that A good leader is one that is going to sacrifice himself for his teammates, that’s more like the will of fire. If you want more details about what I meant when I said “put the team first before personal ambitions”, I suggest to read my most recent pots.

And then, I made a mistake As I should have said “that why I said that Oro have good Leadership qualities, Basically I don’t consider a Oro to be a Good leader, given that for me what he does is using his good leadership qualities, in order to have his followers do what he wants, and in this case just managing them like sacrifices pieces, which he considers them to not worth more than that and I have a hard time Thinking this as been a good leader.

Quote:
Thats what i believe too and how i think should work. But i dont think its should be THE recruiment of people dying.
I didn’t really get your last part..

Quote:
actually a ninja isnt supposed to have a purpose at all kishi makes his own judgements on what he views as good but in our world ninja's werent supposed to have a purpose at all they merely tools so saying that he lacks purpose means he fits the category of how i view ninja's. we dont know yet to what extend they are going out. sasuke wants to personaly finish of itachi so probabaly his team wont even have to do much but himself. i dont think he wants suigetsu to have the sole credit of killing itachi and avenging the uchiha but himself. there probabaly going to do a kekkai like with oro.
The problem is this are Ninjas from Kishimotos world, not the real world. And Obviously Sasuke is looking for this people because there is some sort of plan to be accomplish that he alone can’t, and I doubt any of those is to help him directly defeat Itachi, rather maybe a side help, like for example, Taking care of the other Akatsuki.

Or Maybe He free them because he really see them as friend, but I just don’t see that happening.

Quote:
about sasuke goal not having a purpose is for me not the case. why in my world of reasoning the crime of itachi has been left unpunished. This is my case is bad as the victems will have a felling of unsecurity in this case sasuke didnt have reassuring or justice which is why i can understand he takes it in his own hands its actually the fault of konoha not going after criminals like itachi more serious that we now have yet another drama like with naruto's kyuubi.
for me recruiting and leadership are 2 different things
It has purpose only for Sasuke, Sasuke’s goal is revenge over Itachi killing his clan, nothing as moral as to do it for Justice or world peace, and don’t say Konoha hasn’t gone after criminals like Itachi, and either way as shown, Konoha doesn’t have a shinoby to take care of Itachi.

Quote:
We don’t know what they will do when they go with him so I think its too early to make statements about his recruiting skills.
That’s true, but as I said, I doubt is just for having companions, Sasuke seems to have a plan in mind that will require the help of others.

Quote:
there was another example i would put forth to show why a good leader doenst need to die is

2 guys wat to go for team leader

one has good leader qualities but is unwillingly to die for the team
the other has bad leader qualities and is willing to die for the team
I think that this response depends on the person; would you follow someone that is not willing to give it all for the team and the goal?

I can’t say, even if this person have better leadership qualities or is a good leader, that I would follow him, giving his commitment to the team. A leader who has such a weak commitment to the team, can end up hiding his face when the moment needs for him to stood up.

He will be someone that is a good leader, but he would not be applying his leadership qualities to the team he is in charge of. And at the end the mission could have the same success as the one lead by someone who is a bad leader, but has inspired other to trust him.
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Old 2007-03-27, 13:35   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke View Post
This is where I stop being reasonable because I'm getting annoyed. IT'S NOT ABOUT HATE GODDAMMIT. IT'S NOT. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU OR THINKS THAT SASUKE HAS SOME NEGATIVE CHARACTERISTICS DOESN'T MEAN THEY HATE HIM. People say he's selfish because he IS. People say he's arrogant because he IS. For the last freaking time, IT'S PART OF HIS CHARACTER. He's not without flaws. Now if anyone else comes at me with that bullshit about hate, I won't be responding to them at all.
It`s not hate? jealosy ? Then what .. Look u again, ppl say he is selfish and arrogant ..

As far as i know that arrogance and selfishnes r not bad characteristics ! Also that dont respond on leadership...
(if someone who was better then u in something was arrogant i dont care, he is arrogant becouse he is better, and he can do what ever he wants)

Syndicate didnt point hate becouse someone think different from us .. he wanted to say that all who start rediculous threads and posts, about every Sasukes characteristic, or what he done, or how he look, or his bloodline, everything on what they r jealous .. ar Sasuke haters .. Thats why Sasuke fans always r in deffensive stance. u dont see that Sasuke fans start funny threads about Narutos characteristics becouse we (Sasuke fans) know that Naruto is retard and we dont have anything to talk about retards.. that assume that we dont hate him he is pathetic in my eyes .. (its like when u see invalid u dont look at him and u dont laugh at him)( Naruto = Invalid) And u dont hate that invalid .. but when u see Bill Gates ppl start talking he is idiot etc etc .. or when u see Beckam jealous ppl start talking he is idiot, ugly, bad football player etc etc . !

So do u see there some similar things ?
Beckham = Bad footbal player ( why is he bad player? becouse he is rich, pretty, handsome, have nice wife good merriedge 3 kids ?)
Sasuke = Bad ninja (why is Sasuke bad ninja, bad leader, bad at all ? becouse he is strongest, prettier then naruto and gangs, coolest, have good bloodline ?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
He didn’t kill Naruto because he didn’t wanted to do what Itachi wanted him to do, he choose his own path, and yes, the current Sasuke has shown he will do anything to anybody if its for the sake of his cause..
If u rly think this is true then .. /cry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I think that this response depends on the person; would you follow someone that is not willing to give it all for the team and the goal?

I can’t say, even if this person have better leadership qualities or is a good leader, that I would follow him, giving his commitment to the team. A leader who has such a weak commitment to the team, can end up hiding his face when the moment needs for him to stood up.
He is not willing to give all for his goal ? wtf ?

And once again .. Suigetsu na rest of team r in his dept becouse he saved their lives .. They will be in his depth till they dont do what he want from them, die doing that, or DIE FOR HIM!!
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Old 2007-03-27, 13:41   Link #72
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There are many types of leaderships. I don't think that Sasuke would make a good squad leader, but he had shown he would make an excellent 'general' type of leader (the closest equivalent being a hokage) as he think of long term overall goals (ie/ seeing the big picture). Being trained under Orochimaru shows this further.

And before someone said something, Tsunade is a horrible Hokage as far as leadership goes once you get to practicality although as far as the series go, she is simply following the 'will of fire'.

It is a myth that a good leader cares about his team. A good leader cares about the effectiveness of the team he leads, and this effectiveness can come about in a variety of ways.
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Old 2007-03-27, 14:11   Link #73
Rurik
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
If u rly think this is true then .. /cry
I donít think this is true, I know, as it was stated twice in the Manga, and backed up by the fact that Sasuke was about to Kill Naruto and Sakura from a whim if it wasnít for Orochimarus intervention.

Quote:
He is not willing to give all for his goal ? wtf ?
If he is not willing to die for the team (in this world its give it all), he is not willing to give it all for the goal,

The goal is based on the team, the team is driven by the Leader because of the Visions and Goals, if the team goal becomes Killing Itachi and Sasuke isnít willing to give it all for his team, and hence his goal, then he would give little or no motivation/inspiration to the team and thus compromising the completion of the goal and lost of focus.

Quote:
And once again .. Suigetsu na rest of team r in his dept becouse he saved their lives .. They will be in his depth till they dont do what he want from them, die doing that, or DIE FOR HIM!!
Hey Hey, Sasuke havent save lives here, Sasuke only freed Seigutus, and we donít know the current state of other (for example the Girl happen to be free), and you saw how little did Seigutsu really care about Sasuke as he acted, Donít expect them be willing to give his life for Sasuke just because Sasuke only has set him free
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Old 2007-03-27, 14:17   Link #74
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Originally Posted by FireDetei View Post
Would that even be possible now that they're souls have been sealed and eaten? Oo
Only the 1st and 2nd got 'eaten.' The 3rd and the probably most powerful, the 4th are still, uhmm how to say, available.
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Old 2007-03-27, 14:25   Link #75
SpiRo
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I don’t think this is true, I know, as it was stated twice in the Manga, and backed up by the fact that Sasuke was about to Kill Naruto and Sakura from a whim if it wasn’t for Orochimarus intervention.
rofl .. but he didnt then and didnt now .. if he realy wanted to kill Naruto he would cut him asap he was in front of him .. that was just filled to show that Sasuke have new jutsu

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If he is not willing to die for the team (in this world its give it all), he is not willing to give it all for the goal,

The goal is based on the team, the team is driven by the Leader because of the Visions and Goals, if the team goal becomes Killing Itachi and Sasuke isn’t willing to give it all for his team, and hence his goal, then he would give little or no motivation/inspiration to the team and thus compromising the completion of the goal and lost of focus.

Hey Hey, Sasuke havent save lives here, Sasuke only freed Seigutus, and we don’t know the current state of other (for example the Girl happen to be free), and you saw how little did Seigutsu really care about Sasuke as he acted, Don’t expect them be willing to give his life for Sasuke just because Sasuke only has set him free
How old r u ? .. read again my post and then read again manga chapter 347 where Sugetsu say 'WELL U DID SAVE ME" ! I will explain u now .. becouse u didnt understand chapter .. Sasuke saved him from Orochimaru by killing him .. suigetsu didnt mean on freeing him from prison.. That mean that by killing Orochimaru he save all of them, and now they r in his depth, and that mean they must follow him till they dont repay depth ..
And Suigetsu wanted to see how tough Sasuke is .. and he was amased, that Sasukes heart didnt skip a bit ..

And Sasuke is willing to give all just to kill Itachi .. and his team will be prepared for that !
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Old 2007-03-27, 14:34   Link #76
Rurik
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
rofl .. but he didnt .. if he wanted to kill Naruto he would cut him asap he was in front of him .. that was just filled to show that Sasuke have new jutsu
He didn’t because he was stopped by Orochimaru, he didn’t cut him before because he was “stopped” by Sakura, Yamato and Sai, remember how he took his Katana and when he was about to do it, Everyone steeped in to help Naruto?


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How old r u ? .. read again my post and then read again manga chapter 347 where Sugetsu say 'WELL U DID SAVE ME" ! I will explain u now .. becouse u didnt understand chapter .. Sasuke saved him from Orochimaru by killing him .. suigetsu didnt mean on freeing him from prison.. That mean taht all of them r in his depth, and that mean they must follow him till they dont repay depth ..
Please, When he meant save him, he was referring to Freed him from Prison, not because his Oro was going to kill him next. As He was there as an Experiment, The He got saved because Sasuke killed Oro is a figment of your imagination.

And My age doesn’t have anything to do with this, but for your info, way older than you.

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And Sasuke is willing to give all just to kill Itachi .. and his team will be prepared for that !
You are not getting it, why a team will follow someone lead to reach for such a Selfish Goal as vengeance? Nobody, and more less someone that doesn’t want help for doing that. and thats the point, he havent hsow that he will give the inspiration to others to help him gain his goal, because no one will share a personal Goal that lacks purpose.
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Old 2007-03-27, 14:43   Link #77
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke View Post
I
This is where I stop being reasonable because I'm getting annoyed. IT'S NOT ABOUT HATE GODDAMMIT. IT'S NOT. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU OR THINKS THAT SASUKE HAS SOME NEGATIVE CHARACTERISTICS DOESN'T MEAN THEY HATE HIM. People say he's selfish because he IS. People say he's arrogant because he IS. For the last freaking time, IT'S PART OF HIS CHARACTER. He's not without flaws. Now if anyone else comes at me with that bullshit about hate, I won't be responding to them at all.
Sasuke's selfish for sure. You could provide dozens of examples of his selfish nature, but in the end, all that proves is that he's selfish. It proves nothing about his leadership abilities. Not to say that Sasuke's personal ambitions might not hinder his ability to lead a team, but selfless intentions can hinder leadership just as much as selfish intentions. A couple of people have mentioned Hatake Sakumo the "White Fang". He is a good example of that fact. I don't remember if he was explicitly stated as the leader of his team, but he had to make a decision expected from a leader. From a moral standpoint, he was upstanding, but he failed in his duties as a leader and it brought him disgrace even from the teammates he saved.

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Originally Posted by Syndicate
Sasuke woul dbe selfish if for example he fought itachi and he had a chance of saving sakura who is being attacked by someone and he doenst take it but only concerns withhimself. Thats selfish. He isnt selfish for pursuing his goal.
Let's not try to sugarcoat who Sasuke is and justify his obsession with revenge as not being selfish. Sasuke's ambition to kill Itachi is very selfish. When Sasuke chose to be Leaf ninja by becoming a genin, he was putting himself in service to Konoha first and foremost, that's what it means be a shinobi in the Naruto world. This fact doesn't change even though Sasuke only was using his status as a ninja as a means to gain strength. To abandon that responsibility merely to gain power is selfish. That is not to say Sasuke is incapable of caring for others or compassion, but his ambitions themselves are self-centered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
And then, I made a mistake As I should have said “that why I said that Oro have good Leadership qualities, Basically I don’t consider a Oro to be a Good leader, given that for me what he does is using his good leadership qualities, in order to have his followers do what he wants, and in this case just managing them like sacrifices pieces, which he considers them to not worth more than that and I have a hard time Thinking this as been a good leader.
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Someone can have several traits of a good leader, yet if they are willing to use their subordinates as sacrificial pieces then they cannot be considered an effective leader no matter what accomplishments they may achieve? Didn't you say that one of the key trait of a leader is to be able to use charisma to bring people to your cause? Oro has demonstrated that ability. Didn't you agree that a good leader doesn't necessarily have to be moralistic? You continue to narrow the definition of a good leader.

Also, I've seen a couple posts mention Shikamaru as an example of exemplary leadership. The fact is, the only reason Shikamaru can be said to be a good leader is because we've seen him in action. Before the Sasuke Rescue arc, I could've said that Shikamaru would be a lousy leader because he was lazy, apathetic and unmotivated, all characteristics he demonstrated. But it turned out he's one of, if not the most capable leader seen so far. When all is said and done, it will depend on what kind of leader Kishi wants Sasuke to be. His character flaws aren't any kind of basis to form a conclusion that he won't be a good leader.
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Old 2007-03-27, 14:46   Link #78
SpiRo
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
He didn’t because he was stopped by Orochimaru, he didn’t cut him before because he was “stopped” by Sakura, Yamato and Sai, remember how he took his Katana and when he was about to do it, Everyone steeped in to help Naruto?
I didnt mean when he was blocked while chating with Naruto by Sai. When Sasuke step in front of him no1 almost didnt saw him in that moment he could cut Narutos head.

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Please, When he meant save him, he was referring to Freed him from Prison, not because his Oro was going to kill him next. As He was there as an Experiment, The He got saved because Sasuke killed Oro is a figment of your imagination.

And My age doesn’t have anything to do with this, but for your info, way older than you.
If Sasuke didnt kill Oro .. Suigets would whole life be his prisoner, experimental pig, and posibly container .. dont u think it is saving life ?!?

If rly you r rly older then me then your brain is rly young..

Quote:
You are not getting it, why a team will follow someone lead to reach for such a Selfish Goal as vengeance? Nobody, and more less someone that doesn’t want help for doing that. and thats the point, he havent hsow that he will give the inspiration to others to help him gain his goal, because no one will share a personal Goal that lacks purpose.
No my friend u dont get it .. if someone save my life i will give my life for him .. it doeasnt metter what his goals r thats my goals now !!!!!

Like Haku/Zabuza .. Kimimaro/orochimaro .. And the guy with child on his back ..

Do u get it now ?
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Old 2007-03-27, 15:10   Link #79
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Not sure what you're trying to say here. Someone can have several traits of a good leader, yet if they are willing to use their subordinates as sacrificial pieces then they cannot be considered an effective leader no matter what accomplishments they may achieve? Didn't you say that one of the key trait of a leader is to be able to use charisma to bring people to your cause? Oro has demonstrated that ability. Didn't you agree that a good leader doesn't necessarily have to be moralistic? You continue to narrow the definition of a good leader.
I think you misunderstanding me, I canít (as In myself) consider a Good leader someone that uses his Teammates as Sacrificial pieces without given them the value they have (I said something similar in the post you quoted) , which it would be different from a leader than make the Sacrifices necessarily, even himself (something Orocimaru is not going to do), without forgetting about the importance of each individual in the team, Oro have not show to do this as the reason I just consider Oro not to be a good leader, but someone that have good leadership traits and use them to gain what he wants.

Quote:
Also, I've seen a couple posts mention Shikamaru as an example of exemplary leadership. The fact is, the only reason Shikamaru can be said to be a good leader is because we've seen him in action. Before the Sasuke Rescue arc, I could've said that Shikamaru would be a lousy leader because he was lazy, apathetic and unmotivated, all characteristics he demonstrated. But it turned out he's one of, if not the most capable leader seen so far. When all is said and done, it will depend on what kind of leader Kishi wants Sasuke to be. His character flaws aren't any kind of basis to form a conclusion that he won't be a good leader.
And the difference here is precisely that, we have seen Shiakamru Leading, and he has shown he is good leader, we cant say the same for Sasuke, and his flaw is a big flaw when it comes to leading, because his goal is the one that Happens to be the something that can interfere with a rational decision for the team.

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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
I didnt mean when he was blocked while chating with Naruto by Sai. When Sasuke step in front of him no1 almost didnt saw him in that moment he could cut Narutos head.
Asking Why Sasuke didnít kill him here, is like asking Why Oro didnít cut Sandaime throat instead of Preparing a whole ceremony for fighting him. Those are just plot created to help the story get developed, but the fact it is still there, Sasuke did tried to Kill Naruto on that moment, donít try to deny this fact.

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If Sasuke didnt kill Oro .. Suigets would whole life be his prisoner, experimental pig, and posibly container .. dont u think it is saving life ?!?
If Suigetsu didnít feel his life was saved, then I donít think it is, Suigetsu was talking that he either he or the others would had taken care of Oro eventually, so yeah, you donít know If Suigetsu life was really saved here or that Seigetsu feel like this either, we only now he was freed from his cell.

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If rly you r rly older then me then your brain is rly young..
Iím also more mature and hence, I really donít mind about those bashing to my persona, try that with another poster, because it aint going to work with me, I donít have 3 days posting in forums.

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No my friend u dont get it .. if someone save my life i will give my life for him .. it doeasnt metter what his goals r thats my goals now !!!!!
In other words if someone took you out from Prison you will be willing to Kill your own mother for the sake of that person goal then? Think about the weight of your words.


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Like Haku/Zabuza .. Kimimaro/orochimaro .. And the guy with child on his back ..

Do u get it now ?
Baring the stupid anime filler, Haku/Zabuza and Kimmaru/Orochiamru was plain simple, Both of them took The child under their wing and as they grew they became attached to then, Seigusu is no Kid, he is already a developed person that can depend on himself.
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Old 2007-03-27, 15:20   Link #80
SpiRo
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
If Suigetsu didn’t feel his life was saved, then I don’t think it is, Suigetsu was talking that he either he or the others would had taken care of Oro eventually, so yeah, you don’t know If Suigetsu life was really saved here or that Seigetsu feel like this either, we only now he was freed from his cell.
I cant believe .. i told u already and i guess u didnt read manga once more .. Suigetsu said it !! " well u did save me " So that mean that Suigets know that Sasuke saved him and he acknowledged it !

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I’m also more mature and hence, I really don’t mind about those bashing to my persona, try that with another poster, because it aint going to work with me, I don’t have 3 days posting in forums.
Excuse me sir .. i didnt know that only ppl who r more then 1 month can write on this forum .. i wont write anymore till 1 year pass then i will come back to argue ok ? Is that enough for arguing with u ?

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In other words if someone took you out from Prison you will be willing to Kill your own mother for the sake of that person goal then? Think about the weight of your words.
This is absurd .. why would he save me if he wanna kill my mom .. and who wanna be saved from man that wanna kill his mom

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Baring the stupid anime filler, Haku/Zabuza and Kimmaru/Orochiamru was plain simple, Both of them took The child under their wing and as they grew they became attached to then, Seigusu is no Kid, he is already a developed person that can depend on himself.
They didnt "Took" child .. they saved them, cared about them and trained them, thats why they all wanted and sacrfised their lives for their saviours, even if they know that his cose is not good ..
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