Ever17 -The Out of Infinity-

[rg4619]

Originally Posted by FireBend

By the way, does anyone have any news on 12 riven?

The lead writer finally announced last week that development has resumed. I guess it took some time for Cyberfront to regroup the core staff (the ones still available for work anyway) and work out all necessary contracts.

I don't think anyone is ready to comment on when the game might be released, so we'll just have to be patient.

[Yawlarutan]

Hi there, I finished the game today and I must admit it's THE greatest visual novel I ever played. Definitely a masterpiece.

Spoiler:

Still, one thing keeps bugging me. If anyone "posessed" by BW would lose memory, why doesn't Takeshi lose his memory? After all, you do experience a lot of stuff from his point of view... And still only kid is amnesiac.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure if the question emerged here (I have read a whole lot of stuff concerning ever17 in last few hours, so excuse me for not being sure ), but still adressing the problem won't hurt. Someone was kind of worried that Coco called BW "brother" and wondered whether gender applied for 4D beings. Still, it should be noted that BW "entered" only male characters and that he was interested in women (considering Kid's thoughts about sleepeng between You and Sara etc.), so I would take a guess that it was a male character (well, it was me, right? ). Besides, it would be quite ridiculous if Coco adressed Hokuto "sister", don't you think?

Hmm. Sorry about any mistakes I made, English isn't my native language and i had some beers a while ago .

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Yawlarutan

Hi there, I finished the game today and I must admit it's THE greatest visual novel I ever played. Definitely a masterpiece.

Spoiler:

Still, one thing keeps bugging me. If anyone "posessed" by BW would lose memory, why doesn't Takeshi lose his memory? After all, you do experience a lot of stuff from his point of view... And still only kid is amnesiac.

Spoiler:

while takeshi was possessed by BW, he was a mere observer without any memory, so printing only takeshi's perspective

on the other hand, Hokuto's memory and BW's memory (based on Takeshi's perspective) were conflicting. (actually, Hokuto appears to know that they are in 2034, while BW thinks they are in 2017)

as for why "the kid" in 2017 would lose his memory, kgptzac let a nice explanation on his website : since BW is a 4D entity, it would be logic that the flow of time doesn't affect his perspective.
thus, if he consider that "the kid" should be amnesiac (Hokuto's amnesia due the memories conflict), so be it on the other time/dimension, thus Kaburaki became amnesiac.

the only problem with this matter is : why kaburaki couldn't salvage his memory except his name?
we don't know absolutely nothing of his background, except his name (not even his age, unlike hokuto)

Spoiler:

I'm not sure if the question emerged here (I have read a whole lot of stuff concerning ever17 in last few hours, so excuse me for not being sure ), but still adressing the problem won't hurt. Someone was kind of worried that Coco called BW "brother" and wondered whether gender applied for 4D beings. Still, it should be noted that BW "entered" only male characters and that he was interested in women (considering Kid's thoughts about sleepeng between You and Sara etc.), so I would take a guess that it was a male character (well, it was me, right? ). Besides, it would be quite ridiculous if Coco adressed Hokuto "sister", don't you think?

Hmm. Sorry about any mistakes I made, English isn't my native language and i had some beers a while ago .

Spoiler:

the problem here lies that Coco knows that BW and Hokuto are different, and still call BW "brother", even before the truth is revealed in coco's path.

also, if we consider BW as the 4d entity, it should be able to bypass the "gender" problem... actually, if BW is truely the player, BW was able to "possess" the girls too in the true ending, while he just read/feel their thoughts

*cough* guess it is also a good timing to submit my opinion too XD
finished Ever17 today, and i was greatly pleased how far the story could go, with so much concept.
the amazing thing was especially how the story was written and told, giving subtle hints (mainly You's route, with some smooth inconsistancies which could lead some crazy theories without coco's route)

it reminds me a lot of higurashi and its multiple arcs system, which converge to "the truth". (despite the structure and the goal are clearly different)
basically, the "flat truth" is kinda... well, flat, but the way the game is done deserves praises.

the other great point was the logic behind lots of concept, especially that the writers didn't forget the redundant "grandfather paradox" in such story, though they didn't really fix the "predestination paradox" (did they actually explained how

Spoiler for True End Spoiler, newbs, don't read or your are doomed:

Spoiler for last warning:

You'haru could planned BW summon before BW warned you'haru in 2017? if BW could warn You'haru 2017, he should be aware of the time travel, so he should be ALREADY summoned... thus, he should be summoned in 2034 without being able to warn you'haru in 2017 to begin with... so, i might missed the information here, but how You'haru could organize the 2034 events without BW warning?

)

Every17 has a solid story and gameplay. and i might add the "mood" here : the music, seiyuu and emphasis (description of Takeshi/Kid perspective, summary of the days, etc) work wonder.
of course, Ever17 isn't perfect : my complaints are

• Bad Ends logics : basically, except sara's bad ends, the other 2 aren't triggered by a "bad choice" but by a mere "you are not loved enough by either tsugumi or sora". things get uglier when you consider that sora had nothing to do with the "good ending trigger" (it was You, so hem...)

• with some extent with the prior point, without any guide, if a player end into a bad end, that person would have to try again from the start, since there isn't any clue in which part that player screwed up. (not enough "affection" ? wrong choices? etc)

• Sara's script and ends : except her "past" with You, her personality and background were not really covered pretty well... she was kinda the comic relief/side character, except critical events with "you-know-who". Also, her route was really unbalanced, considering how many "You's route" options were cluttering kid's perspective. (in fact, near the end, you can get back with You, and even fix the apssword thing in the very end -___- )

• some translation adaptations : i'm not talking about the errors, but mainly some problems with the adaptation. I was however pleased with "urashima taro" <=> "Rip van Winkle" (this change made sense and didn't inflict inconsistancy, though it was quite weird to hear urashima taro). and frankly, there wasn't any option for You, since the pun was rampant (especially with the Opening, with the blatant japanese quote + "i am YOU" which wasn't the subtitle)

anyway, these above points are negletable here : this VN is a top nocht product. (being one of the rare officialy translated VN available, it would be a shame to miss it.)

as for my favourite parts...

Spoiler for coco's route:

-Every critical events with Tsumugi (the mother and her 2 children... the reunion with the sleeping knight)
-the rock & roll BW/Hokuto's breakdown when he/they see their face
-Chick scene (omg, Takashi's sarcastic comments were memorable)

yup, nothing original, coco's route is of course the best ^^

[Yawlarutan]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

the other great point was the logic behind lots of concept, especially that the writers didn't forget the redundant "grandfather paradox" in such story, though they didn't really fix the "predestination paradox" (did they actually explained how

Spoiler for True End Spoiler, newbs, don't read or your are doomed:

Spoiler for last warning:

You'haru could planned BW summon before BW warned you'haru in 2017? if BW could warn You'haru 2017, he should be aware of the time travel, so he should be ALREADY summoned... thus, he should be summoned in 2034 without being able to warn you'haru in 2017 to begin with... so, i might missed the information here, but how You'haru could organize the 2034 events without BW warning?

)

Spoiler:

Well, in an explanation of the causal loop (predestination paradox) it is assumed that "one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveller attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history as we know it, not changing it." (took it from wikipedia). Actually, using the term "already" is dangerous because BW is a 4d being (thus timeline doesn't affect him at all) - "considering he awakened in 2034, he should already be awake in 2017?" . To give an example - If in 2010 you're going to travel back to 1534, then all the changes you've made to the timeline are already in effect (now, in 2007). So, You'haru' DID meet BW in 2017. Even though he's been summoned 17 years later .

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Yawlarutan

)

Spoiler:

Well, in an explanation of the causal loop (predestination paradox) it is assumed that "one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveller attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history as we know it, not changing it." (took it from wikipedia). Actually, using the term "already" is dangerous because BW is a 4d being (thus timeline doesn't affect him at all) - "considering he awakened in 2034, he should already be awake in 2017?" . To give an example - If in 2010 you're going to travel back to 1534, then all the changes you've made to the timeline are already in effect (now, in 2007). So, You'haru' DID meet BW in 2017. Even though he's been summoned 17 years later .

Spoiler:

that is the only possible answer.
however, the logic is completely smashed by the paradox itself :

if we consider that BW was truely tricked by himself, how would he be summoned for the very first time in 2034?
my only guess would be : You'haru plannified this and decided to lie and say "it was BW's idea", with the line : "we were just following your directions".

the problem is : when BW change the outcome and explains to 2017 you'haru about the plan, you'haru wouldn't be the one who suggest the idead, but BW himself.

so it ends into an endless loop : in order to time travel, BW requires to trick himself, so ask You'haru to do so. but if he wants to warn her, he must be summoned from the start, which he cannot since he is summoned 17 years later.
the cause of the timetraveling become a consequence. and vice versa...

and considering that "history" was already done like this, as i suggested earlier is kinda cranky...
if timeline doesn't affect BW, the setup for the trick shouldn't be required : after witnessing the outcome of the first 2034, BW could be able to travel back to 2017 and fix everything, without bothering creating the same 2034.

thus, the time still affect BW under certain circumstances

aknowledging this, i can't see how explaining the fact BW could be summoned in 2034 if he was the one who created the cause of his time travel.

keh... this is mindhacking...i should give up or read more the wiki article of that paradox ~~


EDIT : right, i do understand that some change which doesn't modify the present is plausible, since it will not contradict the present.
i'm still however completely disturbed by the fact that the origin of the time traveling was completely inexistant to begin with.
in fact, the core problem is then the origin of You'haru explanation to BW which isn't fully awakened yet. this is muc more a Ontological Paradox

[Matt Soulblade]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Spoiler:

that is the only possible answer.
however, the logic is completely smashed by the paradox itself :

if we consider that BW was truely tricked by himself, how would he be summoned for the very first time in 2034?
my only guess would be : You'haru plannified this and decided to lie and say "it was BW's idea", with the line : "we were just following your directions".

the problem is : when BW change the outcome and explains to 2017 you'haru about the plan, you'haru wouldn't be the one who suggest the idead, but BW himself.

so it ends into an endless loop : in order to time travel, BW requires to trick himself, so ask You'haru to do so. but if he wants to warn her, he must be summoned from the start, which he cannot since he is summoned 17 years later.
the cause of the timetraveling become a consequence. and vice versa...

and considering that "history" was already done like this, as i suggested earlier is kinda cranky...
if timeline doesn't affect BW, the setup for the trick shouldn't be required : after witnessing the outcome of the first 2034, BW could be able to travel back to 2017 and fix everything, without bothering creating the same 2034.

thus, the time still affect BW under certain circumstances

aknowledging this, i can't see how explaining the fact BW could be summoned in 2034 if he was the one who created the cause of his time travel.

keh... this is mindhacking...i should give up or read more the wiki article of that paradox ~~


EDIT : right, i do understand that some change which doesn't modify the present is plausible, since it will not contradict the present.
i'm still however completely disturbed by the fact that the origin of the time traveling was completely inexistant to begin with.
in fact, the core problem is then the origin of You'haru explanation to BW which isn't fully awakened yet. this is muc more a Ontological Paradox

Spoiler:

I was thinking of other explanations, and I though a good one. What if BW did meet You'Haru' in 2017 but without going back in time? Right after Takeshi's death I mean, he tells her the plan for tricking himself, so that in 2034 he can save Coco and Takeshi with the help of Hokuto. Then in 2034 he goes back with Hokuto and tells You'Haru his plan AGAIN (why? because there should not be two BW's, so it something like the past BW and the 2034 BW overlap in 2017, but due to the fact that the 2017 and 2034 are connected he can save Coco and Takeshi) OR remember that after the first time a paradox ocurrs and he has to come back again? Then the one that talks for the second time should be 2034's BW AND 2017 BW did know what was supposed to happen, and awakaned in a paradox in 2034(when the success of Kid's path did not happen, or it was exactly like the scene of the paradox in the game) and then he went back, 2034's version. If my theory's correct, then BW did not "possess" Takeshi or Kid, at least not their respectives paths, and thats why some things change in Coco's path.
Mind blower :S Im sure I forgot of a lot of things but honestly I dont want to write anymore :P

[Yawlarutan]

Spoiler:

that is the only possible answer.
however, the logic is completely smashed by the paradox itself :

if we consider that BW was truely tricked by himself, how would he be summoned for the very first time in 2034?
my only guess would be : You'haru plannified this and decided to lie and say "it was BW's idea", with the line : "we were just following your directions".

the problem is : when BW change the outcome and explains to 2017 you'haru about the plan, you'haru wouldn't be the one who suggest the idead, but BW himself.

so it ends into an endless loop : in order to time travel, BW requires to trick himself, so ask You'haru to do so. but if he wants to warn her, he must be summoned from the start, which he cannot since he is summoned 17 years later.
the cause of the timetraveling become a consequence. and vice versa...

and considering that "history" was already done like this, as i suggested earlier is kinda cranky...
if timeline doesn't affect BW, the setup for the trick shouldn't be required : after witnessing the outcome of the first 2034, BW could be able to travel back to 2017 and fix everything, without bothering creating the same 2034.

thus, the time still affect BW under certain circumstances

aknowledging this, i can't see how explaining the fact BW could be summoned in 2034 if he was the one who created the cause of his time travel.

keh... this is mindhacking...i should give up or read more the wiki article of that paradox ~~


EDIT : right, i do understand that some change which doesn't modify the present is plausible, since it will not contradict the present.
i'm still however completely disturbed by the fact that the origin of the time traveling was completely inexistant to begin with.
in fact, the core problem is then the origin of You'haru explanation to BW which isn't fully awakened yet. this is muc more a Ontological Paradox

Spoiler:

Let's imagine this: If you're looking at a piece of paper (A 2d environment), there's no problem in touching it in two places at once, right? So, we can take e.g. a bent needle and connect two points with it. Then, we can move our fingers both ways on the needle, each end of it being the beginning of the movement, right? The same goes for BW, I think - existing in 4d, he's able to look at 3d space and "touch two places at once" (Again, it seems risky to use the term "at once" at "metaonce", maybe? xD ). He can "move his finger" from one place to another, and both 2017 and 2034 are equally good for the beginning of the "movement".

[kgptzac]

ok it's been some time i last throw myself into discussion about the phenomon in Ever 17; this time more things can be explained with Cure Syndrome, the underlying theme of the entire Infinity series including Never 7, Ever 17, and Remember 11.

Spoiler for memory loss:

Cure Syndrome intepretation

"What you observe becomes reality", the very fundamental idea of the subjective Cure Syndrome. In 2017, Ryogo lost his memory, therefore it's natural for BW to think "well, the kid who my perspective is on also should have amnesia". What you (yes, you, the player, BW) consider to be the truth is reflected in the game world. But here's the catch, the logic of causality is lost here: what caused what? Is Ryogo's amnesia caused by BW's (rather wrongful) observation in 2034 (if you started your first game with the Kid's perspective, or is Hokuto's amnesia caused by BW's observation of the memoriless Ryogo in 2017 (if you started the game as Takeshi).

this is the infinity loop, causality doesn't truely apply because BW can know all things at all times if it is awaken.

of course, a more "scientific" explanation would be BW's idea of "this year is 2017" conflicted with Hokuto's original memory. But this is all about personal intepretations; so I guess i'll say BW "caused" Hokuto to lose his memory and the observation "the Kid has no memory" passed onto the young Ryogo.

But, considering Takeshi does not lose his memory, it shows the difference of "seeing thru a person" or "possesing a person". So it's more like Takeshi->gathering information, Hokuto->goes into action, like in R11's Cocoro and Satoru.

Spoiler for Coco and onii-san:

imo it's pure moe element where someone in the production team thought Ever 17 mainly appeals to males only.

Spoiler for for klashikari's spoiler:

You'haru could planned BW summon before BW warned you'haru in 2017? if BW could warn You'haru 2017, he should be aware of the time travel, so he should be ALREADY summoned... thus, he should be summoned in 2034 without being able to warn you'haru in 2017 to begin with... so, i might missed the information here, but how You'haru could organize the 2034 events without BW warning?

I'm sorry but apparently you've fallen into the logic trap intended by the script writers. Causality is no more when an Infinity Loop is made; this circle has no beginning nor end. :P it's impossible to find the "original" history.

my opinion on this is: future of a timespace is already decided and we as humans who cannot jump freely on the t-axis consider the unkown as "not decided", such as tomorrow weather. Maybe in our world, tomorrow's weather is decided, and when tomorrow comes, infinite amount of parallel worlds are made where the day could be sunny or rainy.

therefore, BW is summoned successfully even if it happens in only one timespace. BW's observation branches off parallel timespaces, You'haru is just doing her role as somebody who recieved the word from a prophet. She can choose not to do what she "destined" to do, which branches off more parallel universes.

to say this simply, you got to think outside of the loop. The logic in the True Ending is meant to show you how perfectly divine the medium of Visual Novel can inspire in a grand mental level of the players. Using pure scientific theories to explain E17's plot will not work entirely--instead, the only theory that is needed is Cure Syndrome, all the BW, 4-dimension, quantum teleportation, EPR paradox are mere tools to express the idea of extreme subjectivity.

Spoiler for something to do with R11:

I think it's an advance of mentality after getting a hold of the twisted story of R11... here the final embodiment of Cure Syndrome is explained by Quantum Mechanic.

"Only YOU are in the infinity loop."
I moe that sentence.

to be updated.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by FireBend

thx guys... got any more?

Phantom of Inferno. Dirt cheap, easy to get, and a total classic which IMHO eclipses Ever17 by a wide margin.

[Yawlarutan]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Phantom of Inferno. Dirt cheap, easy to get, and a total classic which IMHO eclipses Ever17 by a wide margin.

Really? I must check it out then. It will be a hard fight against ever17 though, I believe.

Is any trailer/demo of Phantom of Inferno available?

@kgptzac

Spoiler:

about the third spoiler: That's just what I meant to say . One naturally tends to explain things from a 3d being perspective, while BW is 4d, so many restrictions cannot apply to him. To say so was the goal of my previous post, actually.

[lithium9mm]

I know this is going to sound totally crazy, but what exactly is a bishoujo game? O_o I saw the trailer for this and it looks really neat ^_^

[lithium9mm]

Originally Posted by kayos

bishoujo games are dating sim, eroge and visual novel games

ohhhhhhhhh ok.. I was wondering why I couldn't do anything in the demo there.

[rg4619]

Bishoujo = "pretty girl", so a presentation that emphasizes cute female characters could be described as such (romance may or may not be a part of the story).

It's a genre classification of sorts in Japanese manga and games. I think I should stress that bishoujo games don't necessarily have to be visual novels (they could be RPGs, fighting game hybrids, etc.), nor are all visual novels bishoujo games.

The market has only turned out this way because
a) visual novels are way cheaper to make and are therefore more profitable/less risky
b) there is little mainstream demand for visual novels
c) otaku don't tend to be hardcore gamers, so there's no need to present an elaborate, highly interactive experience
d) there are far more male otaku than female ones, so bishoujo titles dominate the market

Ever17 still falls back on basic genre conventions (the non-protagonist characters are mostly cute females, and some romantic elements exist). However, the bishoujo/romantic aspects have been de-emphasized in favor of presenting a complex sci-fi thriller that anyone should be able to enjoy.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Yawlarutan

Really? I must check it out then. It will be a hard fight against ever17 though, I believe.

Is any trailer/demo of Phantom of Inferno available?

Yes.

I've written a full (non-spoiler) review on the game here.

It also contains two links to two different trailers, which you can download and watch. They should give you an idea what you can expect.

The game comes with my utmost praise. If you liked the storytelling and drama of Ever17, there's a very good chance that you'll love PoI too.

[kamen9]

I have recently played and beat the game. It was incredibly awesome, however, there was a small problem that I experienced. Every time the closing credits end my game crashes and I am unable to see the epilogue for Coco. Has anyone else had this problem? And if so how did you fix it?

[p997tt]

Originally Posted by Mentar

The game comes with my utmost praise. If you liked the storytelling and drama of Ever17, there's a very good chance that you'll love PoI too.

I agree. I got Cal's ending last night and only Mio's left now. I've to say, PoI is awesome. I love Ever17, and I wouldn't say PoI is better but I wouldn't say it's worse either. They're both good in their own way.

Originally Posted by kamen9

I have recently played and beat the game. It was incredibly awesome, however, there was a small problem that I experienced. Every time the closing credits end my game crashes and I am unable to see the epilogue for Coco. Has anyone else had this problem? And if so how did you fix it?

Yeah I had the same problem. But the solution is quite easy - the problem seems to come from the mov_end.e17 file so you just need to make a copy of another .e17 file and rename it to mov_end.17. Remember to make a backup of the original mov_end.e17 before you do so. Later you can watch the original mov_end.e17 with VLC media player (the player is free).

[FireBend]

Is PoI a full name? Or is it short for the real name? If so can u tell me the full name?

[rg4619]

Phantom of Inferno

[Kusaja]

As for Ever 17, I think I'm another satisfied customer.

The story becomes far more straightforward once it all gets laid out, but you could well say that the journey is better than the sum of its parts.

Spoiler for Final endgame comments:

I knew beforehand that a paradox, or actually more than one, was supposed to be involved.

But I really had no idea about the finer details, such as the entire deal with BW, nor about Coco's actual role within the story.

Needless to say, the entire "the Kid you play is not the Kid you saw when playing as Takeshi" sequence of events was also amusing.

Plenty of well executed surprises in there.

Granted, it was a bit too sappy sometimes. To credibly and successfully revive Coco and the real Takeshi after being trapped down there for more than enough time was a bit of a stretch, but I suppose that most plot holes are negated by BW's special existence/abilities as a 4th dimensional being as long as he isn't actively aware of them.

So the less we think about it the better, I'd say.

The characters did deserve a happy ending though, especially considering that all of Takeshi's endings were unrestrictedly tragic...

[JoGi86]

It's 06:08 AM here...
I instaled it at about ~8 PM yesterday.


I just realized that i've been playing 10 hours straight when my alarm clock rang...


Seriously... one of the best games i played recently...

(Still... i feel kinda sad when i think how many games like this are translated, compared to ammount of great games that come out in Japan every year... )