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Old 2007-03-28, 16:41   Link #61
WanderingKnight
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Then what's the deal? The price the PC vendors pay for Vista to be on their machines? Or the DRM conspiracy?
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Old 2007-03-28, 19:40   Link #62
Jinto
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Originally Posted by killmoms View Post
Now that I'm older and have money, I care a lot less about DRM than I used to. I can afford to buy an HD DVD player and an HDTV, so what do I care about HDCP? I have all the compliant stand-alone devices I need to watch my content. Who needs a computer for movies when you've got a nice big 1080p TV and surround sound? Certainly not I.
I like the idea of a media server, where you do not have to need several pieces of hardware switched together/combined to play different media. Basically a highly configurable box for all types of media, providing an easy interface (not 5 remote controls... or the like), with good upgradability (e.g. new audio, video formats...).
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Old 2007-03-28, 23:17   Link #63
Vexx
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He also is apparently fine with the end-game that entertainment controllers want --- "pay per experience" (payperview, payperlisten, the consumer "owns" nothing).
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Old 2007-03-29, 01:00   Link #64
killmoms
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
He also is apparently fine with the end-game that entertainment controllers want --- "pay per experience" (payperview, payperlisten, the consumer "owns" nothing).
No, I just choose not to support those ventures with my money. I still own my HD DVDs, Blu Ray and CDs, thanks. I just have neither the time nor youthful naiveté to object to DRM on some imaginary "moral" level. I would like to see the content companies deliver on their promises about allowing format/space shifting protected by DRM for the new HD formats.

In the end though, if there's a fair use right I want to exercise that's prevented by DRM, there's probably a group of hackers out there who've figured out how to do it.
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Old 2007-03-29, 02:57   Link #65
Vexx
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Frankly, I haven't seen them promising *anything* substantial in the area of time/space shifting. Heck, they still won't decide whether you've purchased a license to your CD or the media itself. (When you want to copy it, they whine you're violating copyright; when you ask for a replacement because the CD was stolen/busted, they whine that you should just buy a new copy).

Considering the law groups, technical and security professionals, and hardware consortiums who object to the DRM extremes desired by the content controllers .... I'd hardly describe those objections as "youthful naivete" .... or fair use and the creative commons as some "imaginary moral level". But good luck to you and your iTunes licenses
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Old 2007-03-29, 05:52   Link #66
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Quote:
I just have neither the time nor youthful naiveté
Yay, someone who more than doubles your age is more youthfully naive than you! Congratulations!
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Old 2007-03-29, 07:16   Link #67
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Then what's the deal? The price the PC vendors pay for Vista to be on their machines? Or the DRM conspiracy?
I'm not sure I know which "deal" you're asking about? Are you asking

1) Why Vista will be installed on most every computer to be shipped in the coming year?
I think the answer to that is obvious. Why was Windows XP installed on nearly every computer shipped last year? Or,

2) Why is Vista so cheap to OEMs?
For consumer machines, OEMs like Dell also get paid by AOL, Symantec, etc., to ship computers with their software pre-installed. These businesses depend on subscription revenues. Getting people to sign up for AOL or extend their trial Norton subscription is the name of the game. Having an AOL icon on the desktop, or Norton Anti-Virus running in the taskbar and nagging you to renew all the time, is worth enough to these companies to pay Dell to include them.

As for the cost of Vista itself, I've seen plausible estimates that it runs about $30 per copy to large OEMs like Dell or HP. The revenues generated from the pre-installed software might actually exceed the cost of Vista.

What's more important to Microsoft than that $30 is the maintenance of the Windows culture. Windows extends from homes and schools up to the boardrooms and government offices in countries around the globe. Nearly everybody uses Windows, and it's nearly synonymous with computing in terms of global "mind-share." For most people there isn't anything else. Macs cost more; they aren't like the machines people use in the office; nor are they like the computers most people's friends and relatives have. This dominance of the culture of computing is nearly priceless to Microsoft and certainly worth far more than Vista licenses will ever bring in. My guess is Microsoft could easily afford to give Vista away, but charging for it makes it seem more valuable to many people. As someone who has tried to introduce Linux into business settings, I can tell you that the "if it's free, how can it be good?" perspective is pretty widespread among humans.

If you're interested in these issues, this thread at Slashdot has some useful material in amongst the usual anti-Microsoft bashing. If you've never read Slashdot, WK, you should drop by there sometime; you'll probably find a lot of friends

Or,

3) Is there a DRM "conspiracy?"
This question is rather unrelated to the others. Yes, Intel and Microsoft agreed to implement hardware and software that enables control over the copying and playback of encumbered works. I don't think they were bludgeoned into doing so either. If the next big trend in computing is the expansion of media content, then the continued dominance of both these companies in their respective industries requires that such content be playable on Intel/Microsoft devices. And, once you introduce the ability to lock content down to specific types of devices, you create immediate "barriers-to-entry" for competitors who won't be able to read the content at all. A "Plays for Sure" world just extends the Microsoft culture that much more.

Or, perhaps,

4) What can be done about this?
Well, first, we're talking about top-tier corporate politics at its finest where the largest players on the field all get together and figure out how to make themselves all better off. Do I expect behavior like this to end in my lifetime? Certainly not, nor in yours either, WanderingKnight.

As Vexx has written elsewhere, most people don't see or understand what's happening or don't care. I think killmoms has a good point, though. Most people don't want to sit in front of a computer to watch a movie. They'd rather relax on the couch with a nice-sized, good-looking display. In general, I would, too. And, frankly, I don't really care whether I can make a high-definition rip of a Blu-Ray DVD. I'm sympathetic to the content producers here. Not protecting their content puts the tools for widespread high-resolution piracy into everyone's hands. As for Jinto's desire to have a server, isn't that precisely the point of the Vista media editions? I expect we'll see more powerful media appliances that incorporate Windows Vista cropping up soon. All of this just again reinforces Microsoft's dominant position in computing and begins to extend it to media.

My concerns about DRM actually have little to do with Hollywood, and everything to do with the question of who is controlling my computer. I don't want to have a computer where there are secret parts that cannot be revealed to me. I like running an operating system, Linux, and dozens of open-sourced applications, where every line of code is visible to everyone in the world. DRM is intrinisically antithetical to these beliefs since it puts control of my computer into the hands of those who hold the keys to the DRM hardware and software.
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Old 2007-03-29, 15:27   Link #68
Vexx
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I agree with Seiji ... this has more to do with control over my computing tools which I don't want being crippled by people who still haven't gotten over the ruling on VHS/Beta and fair use. If they want to cripple their so-called entertainment products so that people have to buy a Sony player to watch a Sony movie or you have to pay a usage fee each time you watch a DVD you purchased on it .... well, thats a different issue

But no DRM in my computer, thank you, too many legitimate concerns by people who know so much about computing and security or legal theory that they make even my head spin. This is driving some people to open sourced Linux ... but if the mobo and drive manufacturers cave in to this crap --- it could get difficult to find uncrippled parts to build open source computers.

I am tinkering with a den PC media server that I use to watch/listen on my large and silly video/audio systems -- biggest issue I have is the usual "silence vs performance" problem rather than win2k vs Linux.

It'd be nice to have a legitimate way to rip purchased DVD/CDs/cube-of-light onto an appliance that I could manipulate from a computer or other device (that would isolate all the DRM nonsense onto that appliance and keep it out of my computer).
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Old 2007-03-29, 16:50   Link #69
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
My concerns about DRM actually have little to do with Hollywood, and everything to do with the question of who is controlling my computer.
Well, those were actually my initial concerns when I spoke about a "DRM conspiracy".

But I understood what you said, and I quite agree with you.
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Old 2007-03-29, 17:44   Link #70
killmoms
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Yay, someone who more than doubles your age is more youthfully naive than you! Congratulations!
Even old people can sometimes be youthfully naive.

However, I understand the perspectives on both sides of the debate. I'm probably somewhat biased too, working in the content creation industry myself (I work at a post production house in L.A. that does a lot of TV/film work).

I think people who have aligned themselves with the "everything everywhere without artificial limits" hope have a pretty great vision. I just don't see it working out in the current regulatory climate. Maybe someday it will be possible. Until then though, I mostly just can't be arsed to care. For things like music, it's already quite possible—rip your own CDs that you buy. For video it's a little trickier, but it's also much more space consuming to try to rip all of it and store it.

Personally, music streaming appeals to me much more than video streaming. Maybe someday when I have even more money and can start building the sort of systems it'd take to support it... And that's the other thing: most video streaming solutions have interfaces that, frankly, suck ass. The Apple TV is a step in the right direction, but even hacked its hardware is a bit on the tepid side. Maybe a hacked rev. 2 Apple TV will get me a little more excited about the prospect of streaming video. Until then, frankly, it's just easier to buy stuff on [insert optical media of choice here].
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Old 2007-03-29, 23:50   Link #71
Vexx
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No disagreement with any of that ... basically the same experience.
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Old 2007-03-30, 02:22   Link #72
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by killmoms View Post
(I work at a post production house in L.A. that does a lot of TV/film work).
You're closer to me than I thought!
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Old 2007-03-30, 11:38   Link #73
killmoms
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You're closer to me than I thought!
Well, I mean, Burbank is like RIGHT THERE. Technically the place I work is in Burbank too, but it's just easier to say L.A. to people not in the area. :P

Installed Vista last night on my Windows partition, am still setting it up. Explorer's nice, Aero is a nice idea whose execution still annoys me, Flip3D is still retarded. Will post more impressions as I work with it more (probably tonight or tomorrow).
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Old 2007-03-30, 19:50   Link #74
felix
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One of the few good things about Vista is that all the `productivity++` stuff actually works.
Simple things like using a plain black image for a desktop, hidding (or auto-hidding) any excess content, stripping all applications of any visual clutter (e.g. say the app has some sort of toolbar.. DESTROY it.. lol) etc etc.
I tried them with Xp, something just never felt right.
With vista they seem to work, must be the Authentic Energetic Reflective Open thingy (yup that's where the word AERO comes from.. still isn't as corny as DNA) There are also little things like group by that can really get to you ~ for a while.
All in all I seem to feel (at least) more productive in my work.. mm.. still don't like it tho'

Should be good for games. As in they, seem, to look better then in Xp.
@ Syaoran
> " Vista's security is a joke O.o "
If you buy a windows for security your a damn fool lol
Windows security in general is a joke. e.g. Behold the latest apocalipse device.. Animated Cursors of Doooom! [SlashDot.org]
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Old 2007-03-31, 05:29   Link #75
Syaoran
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@ Syaoran
> " Vista's security is a joke O.o "
f you buy a windows for security your a damn fool lol
Windows security in general is a joke.
Well... that's what you see on the screenshot... I didn't buy Windows Vista and it became an activated Ultimate version that passes the genuine validation on the microsoft site for updates & extra ultimate content.
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