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Old 2007-04-04, 21:05   Link #101
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden View Post
It would have to be someone besides Nanoha representing the good guys though. Maybe Fate, Vita, or Signum. Nanoha and Hayate just seem too nice to actually kill someone. Well, normally.
The Fate now wouldn't even kill a fly... Unless it's a mindless fly that is planning to destroy the world one way or other... But in that case, all of them are capable of pulling the trigger.

Signum, I have no problem believeing she could do it.
Zafira, if he's ever strong enough
Vita, hard to tell, maybe if it's to save someone...
Chrono, He doesn't seem to be the type that will hesitate if it needs to.

EDIT:
@raidou
Hence I said 'perharps'.

@Meophist
There's probably enough angst going around with Subaru's mother's death, Teana's brother's death and Eilo being in a 'research' facility.
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:08   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker View Post
Subaru?

I agree with Hayate (unless someone kills one of her friends), but I could see Nanoha tuning violent if she got fed up enough with a villain. She showed shades of it towards the end of As.
Or those events in the manga could have changed her in some ways.It has been 10 years though , lots of them could be much different when it comes to battle since they are all more experienced now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
I just said that it'll be interesting; never said that it'll be the case.

I don't really care who kills the cute little innocent evil girl, I want to see the good guys suffer through it.
Ahh ok sorry i slightly misunderstand ><

Edit:
@Chaos2Frozen
yeah sorry my wording suck, I was actually asking whether he is dead or alive if anyone know
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:20   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden View Post
Edit: I have a strange way of categorizing actions.
A good deed for a good reason is good.
A good deed for an evil reason is flawed.
A bad deed for a good reason is tragic.
A bad deed for an evil reason is evil.

A tragic character is still understandable, and as such is still someone that could somewhat easily be sympathized with. A truly "evil" character lacks that quality.
What about a bad deed for amoral reasons?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@Meophist
There's probably enough angst going around with Subaru's mother's death, Teana's brother's death and Eilo being in a 'research' facility.
Well, I don't really care too much about the characters suffering part, but I want my innocent evil!
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:47   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
What about a bad deed for amoral reasons?
Doesn't that fall under 'good' reason?


Quote:
Well, I don't really care too much about the characters suffering part, but I want my innocent evil!

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Old 2007-04-04, 21:49   Link #105
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Regarding 'Evil' villains and character deaths...

I think its not so much 'evilness' that is is required, so much as a villain who does not turn out to be a sweet litte girl who, in the end, just wants to be friends.
Instead, someone who has opposing goals and sticks to them, to the dire end.
Maybe they are killed, imprisoned, maybe the flee and go into hiding, defeated.
Just not another new friend.

And character deaths - it's not that they are needed to progress the plot, or whatever, its just that with all this high powered magical combat, it is incredible NO ONE HAS DIED YET.

People keep getting saved by the 'reduced to 1 hit point' rule.
In actual armed combat, if you are truly fighting for your life, it can be quite hard to not kill your opponent.

Having everyone survive combat time after time is a little contrived, and takes the drama out of it. After all, what is the price of failure? You end up on the floor very tired, and need to spend a few days in bed. Boo-hoo.
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:52   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Regarding 'Evil' villains and character deaths...

I think its not so much 'evilness' that is is required, so much as a villain who does not turn out to be a sweet litte girl who, in the end, just wants to be friends.
Instead, someone who has opposing goals and sticks to them, to the dire end.
Maybe they are killed, imprisoned, maybe the flee and go into hiding, defeated.
Just not another new friend.

And character deaths - it's not that they are needed to progress the plot, or whatever, its just that with all this high powered magical combat, it is incredible NO ONE HAS DIED YET.

People keep getting saved by the 'reduced to 1 hit point' rule.
In actual armed combat, if you are truly fighting for your life, it can be quite hard to not kill your opponent.

Having everyone survive combat time after time is a little contrived, and takes the drama out of it. After all, what is the price of failure? You end up on the floor very tired, and need to spend a few days in bed. Boo-hoo.

animes are immortal (it depend though)
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:56   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Regarding 'Evil' villains and character deaths...

I think its not so much 'evilness' that is is required, so much as a villain who does not turn out to be a sweet litte girl who, in the end, just wants to be friends.
Instead, someone who has opposing goals and sticks to them, to the dire end.
Maybe they are killed, imprisoned, maybe the flee and go into hiding, defeated.
Just not another new friend.
Yes! Finally! Someone who used the right words!

Quote:
And character deaths - it's not that they are needed to progress the plot, or whatever, its just that with all this high powered magical combat, it is incredible NO ONE HAS DIED YET.

People keep getting saved by the 'reduced to 1 hit point' rule.
In actual armed combat, if you are truly fighting for your life, it can be quite hard to not kill your opponent.
Well now that they're fighting machines, there shouldn't be a reason to hold back... And neither should the machines.


Quote:
Having everyone survive combat time after time is a little contrived, and takes the drama out of it. After all, what is the price of failure? You end up on the floor very tired, and need to spend a few days in bed. Boo-hoo.
Or better yet, you screwed up - and hundreds of people dies. Doesn't always have to be death of the said character.
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:57   Link #108
Meophist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Doesn't that fall under 'good' reason?
Not really. Amoral is the lack of morals, not inheritly good nor evil.
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Old 2007-04-04, 21:59   Link #109
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Do we really need to stereotype the "evil" villians to those of the lamest proportions? History has shown that bad guys don't have to be "morally ambigious" and be "iredeemably evil" with some sort of lame uber sad past that drives their motivations to be great villians. Besides, evil doesn't neccesarily mean lame reasons to doing so. We don't need bullshit like taking over the world and stuff to make villians evil.

Dio Brando didn't need some sad uber past and a morally ambigious reason to become what is literally JoJo franchise's poster boy. All he needed was charisma, and an ego-complex since to him, humans are like loafs of bread for breakfast. Hadlar didn't need to be remotely good. He just had tons of pride and a sense of a knight's honour in how he do his evil things.

The recent Neuro chapter highlighted my point perfectly. One of the villains said this " You know how villians in stories and movies nowadays aren't really all that evil...They all seem to have some sort of sad reason blah blah blah stuff."

Good writing can easily make evil villians shine.
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:01   Link #110
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
Not really. Amoral is the lack of morals, not inheritly good nor evil.
Ah sorry, I rarely come across that word, so I never memorised it ...

To have no morals... that means the deed was done on... Instinct? Self gain?
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:03   Link #111
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Wait guys... from what I have read in this thread... do some of you really want another King Hamdo?
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:06   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Ah sorry, I rarely come across that word, so I never memorised it ...

To have no morals... that means the deed was done on... Instinct? Self gain?
It is like missing code of ethics right? so i guess w/e deed done is more of an instinct

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
Wait guys... from what I have read in this thread... do some of you really want another King Hamdo?
that's a little extreme example of villain.He is more like nuts.Batattack explained it really well

Edit:
like what nightengale said , although i only recognize 4 of those
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Last edited by raidou; 2007-04-04 at 22:20.
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:11   Link #113
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Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
Wait guys... from what I have read in this thread... do some of you really want another King Hamdo?
No, we want Dio Brandos, Sa Sakujuns, Bomers, Kuroro Lucifers, Akira Sawakis, Cerberuses, Demon Lord Hadlars...
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:22   Link #114
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raidou
It is like missing code of ethics right? so i guess w/e deed done is more of an instinct
If thats the case, whoever it is can't really be called a character, let alone a villian...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
No, we want Dio Brandos, Sa Sakujuns, Bomers, Kuroro Lucifers, Akira Sawakis, Cerberuses, Demon Lord Hadlars...
... You lost me there

But for me, the only recent 'good/likable' evil villians I've seen is The Earl from DGM and of course, Light.

Both are evil, but they're not boring, and definitely not stupid.
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:24   Link #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Ah sorry, I rarely come across that word, so I never memorised it ...

To have no morals... that means the deed was done on... Instinct? Self gain?
Could be that the said person simply doesn't know any better/worse. Could be that the person simply doesn't understand morals, or haven't learned any. I'm just kinda hoping that the character in the opening is an amoral character that happens to do evil deeds. I think it could be very interesting, as I doubt even Nanoha will know how to handle it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raidou View Post
It is like missing code of ethics right? so i guess w/e deed done is more of an instinct
Well, yes, no code of ethics. Doesn't mean that the deed is done on instinct however.
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:27   Link #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
If thats the case, whoever it is can't really be called a character, let alone a villian...



... You lost me there
Dio Brandos=Jojo bizzare
Kuroro Lucifers=hunterxhunter
Demon Lord Hadlars=dragon quest
Sakujuns=monogatari
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:29   Link #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Regarding 'Evil' villains and character deaths...

I think its not so much 'evilness' that is is required, so much as a villain who does not turn out to be a sweet litte girl who, in the end, just wants to be friends.
Instead, someone who has opposing goals and sticks to them, to the dire end.
Maybe they are killed, imprisoned, maybe the flee and go into hiding, defeated.
Just not another new friend.

And character deaths - it's not that they are needed to progress the plot, or whatever, its just that with all this high powered magical combat, it is incredible NO ONE HAS DIED YET.

People keep getting saved by the 'reduced to 1 hit point' rule.
In actual armed combat, if you are truly fighting for your life, it can be quite hard to not kill your opponent.

Having everyone survive combat time after time is a little contrived, and takes the drama out of it. After all, what is the price of failure? You end up on the floor very tired, and need to spend a few days in bed. Boo-hoo.
There we go. That's part of what I was trying to say. (the other part being that I just want to see those weapons used fataly... on people, not just animals or machines)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Or better yet, you screwed up - and hundreds of people dies. Doesn't always have to be death of the said character.
The death of a bunch of random people that you never get to know isn't really all that impactful...
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:31   Link #118
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
Could be that the said person simply doesn't know any better/worse. Could be that the person simply doesn't understand morals, or haven't learned any.
So it's a person that doesn't know whether it's right or wrong, but feels like it's okay to do?

aka, kids...

(Or maybe she was told it's the right thing to do...)

Quote:
I'm just kinda hoping that the character in the opening is an amoral character that happens to do evil deeds. I think it could be very interesting, as I doubt even Nanoha will know how to handle it.
Nanoha? Beat them down then set them straight... Works all the time.

But jokes aside, that would be interesting...

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
The death of a bunch of random people that you never get to know isn't really all that impactful...
Not unless you see/smell the bodies. I heard those things are pretty traumatizing ...

EDIT: IF you watched code geass, refer to episode 22.
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Old 2007-04-04, 22:45   Link #119
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So, what you're all really looking for is a Char Aznable or a Magneto (X-Men comics version) - someone who doesn't see THEMSELVES as a villain, but rather as the only person who sees what is necessary and is willing to do it, even if it means taking the responsibility for making the "hard decisions" that the more idealistic, soft hearted "heroes" can't?
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Old 2007-04-04, 23:03   Link #120
BatAttack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
So it's a person that doesn't know whether it's right or wrong, but feels like it's okay to do?

aka, kids...
Yah, young children are a good example of humans who are immoral [ edit type: amoral ] - they do gain a sense of morals as they get older, as they are taught them and as they naturally learn them by watching other people.

Also, morals primarily come from a sense of empathy - to be able to feel what another feels. If watching someone suffer causes you distress or discomfort, you cannot be truly amoral.

Another prime category for amoral people is - everyone's favourite - psychopaths and sociopaths. Keep in mind, these people do not have to be murderers, most live out fairly normal lives. It just means things like compassion and other people's feelings to not factor into their decision making - not because they are cruel or sadistic, but because they don't really understand what those feelings are.
Instead, they ape the behaviour of people around them - and are often very good at 'faking' morals or emotions. Psychopaths thrive in competitive office politics environments - there have been some great articles and documentaries about it.

Of course, hollywood movie psychopaths are always sadistic murderers, but that's not a realistic (or fair) portrayal.
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Last edited by BatAttack; 2007-04-05 at 00:02.
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