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Old 2007-04-03, 20:27   Link #61
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by ZombieSheep View Post
I don't know much about the real thing, but wouldn't drop damage have more to do with flexibility of the KM structure rather than how strong the armor is?
A KM can be damaged by a punch in the "head" by another KM. In general a KM's design philosophy is closer to an aircraft's than a tank's; paper-thin armour to maintain ability to avoid attacks.
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Old 2007-04-03, 20:41   Link #62
Dis Astranagant
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
A KM can be damaged by a punch in the "head" by another KM. In general a KM's design philosophy is closer to an aircraft's than a tank's; paper-thin armour to maintain ability to avoid attacks.
I do not believe that to be true because:

1) Of that fact that KMFs originated from tanks. (See article below)

2) The four components crucial in an aircraft can be negated with KMFs.

3) Cockpit layout and design are far from the HoTaS format on fighter jets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
The history of Knightmare Frames is roughly divided in four Ages, which mark the birth of a new kind of weapon platform and its evolution into a full-fledged combat system.[1]


[edit] First Age: Infancy
The First Age saw the creation of 'emergency survival cockpits' for conventional vehicles like Main Battle Tanks and Armored Personnel Carriers. Equipped with rocket engines to fly the crew away from the wreck, the contraptions were soon equipped with artificial legs to allow greater mobility. Limited room inside the said tanks and other vehicles however restricted the number of legs to two. Although unarmed and with limited power sources, the 'walking cockpits' nevertheless sparked much interest and laid out the bases for gressorial machines.


[edit] Second Age: Turning Point
Several years later, the Britannian Empire entered the Second Age by authorizing research and development (R&D) on an innovative weapon, implementing several systems that had just been created, just as:

Multipurpose manipulators
Landspinner propulsion systems
Factsphere sensors
R&D, however, only enjoyed a short lifetime and the entire project remained at trial level, as the Landspinners suffered critical jams and brutal accelerations, causing the Knightmare Frames to tumble during test trials. The manipulators were unable to handle high-precision tasks and it wasn't until the Third and Fourth Age that acceptable results were finally achieved. R&D, however, went two separate ways, namely the application of military-based robotics projects and the use of social-oriented programs. The former was assigned to a Britannian Army Special Division, the 'Special Dispatch Guidance System Division', while the latter went in the hands of a private group, the Ashford Foundation. The said company proactively implemented technologies related to training and education, enabling the entire Knightmare Frame program to make progress fluidly.

The bipedal weapon was in the meantime nicknamed 'Knightmare' by the Army but it non-offensive equipment was referred to as 'Frame' by civilians. The union of those two terms eventually gave birth to the system's current name, 'Knightmare Frame'.


[edit] Third Age: Archetype
The Third Age quickly reaped the favorable results from the Second Age and focused on making Knightmare Frames truly combat effective platforms. As such, technology fields were prioritized, with greater focus given on mobility and ordnance.

As some time, the use of supraconductor elements became paramount in Knightmare Frame R&D. One material specifically gained interest: Sakuradite. The Sakuradite-rich Coalminus was observed to bring out high output yields, effectively boosting the Knightmare Frames' performances. Before long, the mineral's value had multiplied, and it had become the core of many political issues and positions, most notably Britannia's foreign and diplomatic policies.

It was also at that time that the famous Ganymede prototype, manufactured and designed by the Ashford Foundation, made its appearance. Its test pilot gained renown and was granted knighthood, before eventually getting married to the Britannian Emperor. However, the company suffered great damage when she was assassinated and started to decline. The Ashford Foundation eventually retired from its business and its employees were disbanded. The truth on the Empress' death was never truly elucidated but rumors suggest that her downfall was caused by a political feud meant to keep the rising Ashford Foundation in check.


[edit] Fourth Age: Implementation
The Fourth Age was heavily influenced by the venerable Ganymede prototype. The once experimental vehicles definitively became weapon platforms and, from earlier test results, the RPI-11 Glasgow was rolled out, first model to be truly considered combat capable. It proved its tactical and technological superiority during the invasion of Japan in 2010 A.T.B. by crushing the local army with relative ease. Its success confirmed, the Glasgow underwent many modifications and upgrades, becoming the baseline unit for the Britannian Army. Even after it became obsolete, its frame was still used as template for later generation models such as the Sutherland, the aquatic Boatman or the Gloucester. Some units are, even to this day, still used by the Knightpolice for law enforcement. Other countries and factions such as the Japanese Liberation Front even created its own variants, namely the Burai, Burai Kai and Raikou, before creating its own designs, although with highly different designs.

Knightmare Frame R&D has now reached its seventh generation, although there are few prototypes of this kind to this day. Nevertheless, upgrades and discoveries are still made every day, as now particle and wave technology are being intensively implemented in experimental weaponry.


[edit] Fifth Age: Evolution
Following the fourth generation was the fifth generation Sutherland, which kept the Glasgow's development path with a focus on improving mobility and close combat performance. The Glasgow was developed with conventional weapons such as tanks in mind, but apparently gave no consideration to fighting other Knightmare Frames. Though the Glasgow's basic technology was far from inferior, most of its success came thanks to Britannia's overwhelming power. As the success of the Glasgow lead to a worldwide boom in robotic weapon development, it became obvious that a more up-to-date approach was required.

The Sutherland's improvements to cockpit comfort and function, as well as its close combat abilities, show that the concept of robot combat was highly considered during its development. In addition to improved mobility, the refined landspinners provided the ability to pivot-turn (rotating the landspinners in opposite directions, allowing for rapid turning in place). The feedback from this technology was later returned to the Glasgow. The Second Princess Cornelia and her bodyguards make use of the Glouchester, custom machines made from the Sutherland. The remodel shows that it was not intended for anti-robot combat, but rather anti-Knightmare combat, reflecting the Chinese Federation and the EU's development of their own Knightmare Frames.


[edit] Sixth Age: Missing and Continuation
Because the Fifth Generation Sutherland and Gloucester featured similar refinements to the Knightmare Frame's technology, there was little overall innovation. As a result, the once-rapid pace of KMF development quickly slowed to a near-halt. Seeking a breakthrough, various technical trial-type machines were developed, but none produced any form of concrete results. For some time, it seemed like research into bipedal walking weapons was nothing more than wildly grasping for results. Thus, the Sixth Generation is often referred to as the "Missing Generation".

The machine that broke this stagnant period was the Seventh Generation Lancelot. Its development was handled by a key member of the Knightmare development group's applied engineering department. The OS, frame materials, and research from the First through Fifth (Sixth) Generations were all brought into line for its conception. Firstly, the frame features a differing amount of Sakuradite. Though typically used for the Yggdrasil Drive which powers KMFs, the Sakuradite is used for more than just the Coalminas core. This provides the unit with overwhelming power. Thanks to its high output, technologies such as the MVS (Maser Vibration Sword) and electromagnetic shielding could be employed. In addition to the Sakuradite dispersed throughout the frame, it is also used in the VARIS (Variable Ammunition Repulsion Impact Spitfire), with the intent of giving it the strength to survive a direct hit. This kind of rapid development completely defies the notion of general purpose and mass production units, resulting in the Lancelot being a unique machine.

At this point, there are two possible futures for KMF development. One is to take the technology introduced in the Seventh Generation and find a cheap way of introducing it into mass production machines. The other is to develop other technologies from the missing Sixth Generation to produce Seventh Generation machines other than the Lancelot. The thinking behind the technology in the Guren Nishiki and related machines could be considered "Another Seventh Generation".
Also, as Ktran noted, a hypothetical hp of a KMF is around 1100. An M1 has 1500 hp. I'd say that's about right for a KMF.
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Old 2007-04-03, 20:51   Link #63
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I know KMs originated from tanks. But that doesn't make them tanks.

We have seen how standard KM weapons are effective against other KMs, but Lulu specifically ordered his troops to use armour-piercing rounds when firing against tanks early on in the show. The limbs of a KM has also been shown to be very vulnerable.

Other than using Lancelot's beam shield, most KMs win by hitting the enemy before they get hit.
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Old 2007-04-03, 20:56   Link #64
SoldierOfDarkness
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Lets not forget that we've seen Knightmares get taken down by infantry using RPGs so their armor is not that invincible. It's their speed.
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Old 2007-04-03, 22:11   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
A KM can be damaged by a punch in the "head" by another KM. In general a KM's design philosophy is closer to an aircraft's than a tank's; paper-thin armour to maintain ability to avoid attacks.
I'd say that they're probably most analogous to helicopter gunships. However, I have no idea how they're supposed to survive especially given that they don't tend to work with infantry in close support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dis Astranagant View Post
I do not believe that to be true because:

1) Of that fact that KMFs originated from tanks. (See article below)
The creators can claim many things, but if they aren't reflected by the show itself, we can safely ignore them. In this case, Vallen Chaos Valiant's statement is completely based on how the Knightmare Frames are portrayed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dis Astranagant View Post
3) Cockpit layout and design are far from the HoTaS format on fighter jets.
The design of a cockpit isn't all that important to its design philosophy compared to how it's employed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dis Astranagant View Post
Also, as Ktran noted, a hypothetical hp of a KMF is around 1100. An M1 has 1500 hp. I'd say that's about right for a KMF.
The credit belongs to HunterRequiem. The main reason why main battle tanks are so heavy is because they mount a lot of armor (usually at least half of the total mass), Knightmare Frames don't, so it's natural that they fit into a different niche.
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Old 2007-04-06, 03:33   Link #66
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ez, why do I do this, but never my Physics homework...
You should, your formula is incorrect - it assumes a constant acceleration, which is never the case.
Normally, it should be calculated via the new kinetic energy:
T= mv^2/2,
and the power is T/t = mv^2/2t = 8000 kg(metric ton)*27m/s*27m/s/(2*3s) = 972kWatt. ~=1400 hps.
Actually, you would need two or three times that to compensate for its horrible aerodynamics.

Quote:
I'd say that they're probably most analogous to helicopter gunships. However, I have no idea how they're supposed to survive especially given that they don't tend to work with infantry in close support.
Knightmare frames ARE mobile infantry armed with high powered short-range weaponry, so they don't need any other infantry support. They are not suited to the open battlefield, as was shown in the Chinese invasion story - Cornelia couldn't do a thing at the sea.

They survive the same way those helicopters do - by hiding for cover most of the time, and leaving it for a short while to make an attack.
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Old 2007-04-06, 10:54   Link #67
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You're correct. Sadly, I'm only in first year physics. And yes, I was aware that areodynamics and such were going to affect it. I was trying to put somthing close that would be close enough to give us an idea, or at least cause those of whom really know physics to correct me until we have a good answer.

Also, I completely agree with the analogy with helicopter gunships, except for the fact that most KF's don't fly. In addition, note that most knightmares have an antiarmor weapon mounted above their machine gun on their assault rifle, called a "UN Round" by Lulouch. It appears to be either a heavy solid (tungsten most likely) or formed penetrator type round used for armored targets. It seems that Britanian engeneers at least accept that the KF isn't really a tank.
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Old 2007-04-06, 11:22   Link #68
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Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
Knightmare frames ARE mobile infantry armed with high powered short-range weaponry, so they don't need any other infantry support. They are not suited to the open battlefield, as was shown in the Chinese invasion story - Cornelia couldn't do a thing at the sea.
Why should Knightmare Frames be considered an infantry replacement? As far as I can tell, a 5m tall, 8 ton vehicle is nothing like a 2m tall 100kg infantryman - heck, they're not even employed in the same way. Also, in built-up combat environments, Knightmares will be eaten up by infantry armed with RPGs and ATGMs, unless they have their own infantry to counter those threats. Tanks have much more protection against such weapons but they still die without infantry support (as the Israel-Hezbollah conflict showed), and the Knightmares have way less armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI View Post
They survive the same way those helicopters do - by hiding for cover most of the time, and leaving it for a short while to make an attack.
That's pretty much the reason for my analogy. It's a pity that Knightmares aren't shown to take cover more often. Realistically speaking, speed alone isn't going to confer much protection from enemy fire.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:11   Link #69
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The main advantage of an infantry is its high manoeuvrability and very fast targeting, and KFs are even better at both of these tasks(well, they are bigger but can do moves humans can't).

That faster targeting is the main reason ordinary RPGs wouldn't work that well against them - KFs would spot that soldier and kill him before he can take aim.

Also, there might be a problem with artillery shots penetrating through its thin armor and exiting on the other side without exploding, doing only minimal damage.

Traps and mines, on the other hand, are an excellent way of attacking KFs.

Btw, what's the minimum height of a KF? Those 4-5 meters are for the "standing" mode, but we did see them fitting into an ordinary room, and that's 3m at most...
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:50   Link #70
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Originally Posted by SinsI
The main advantage of an infantry is its high manoeuvrability and very fast targeting, and KFs are even better at both of these tasks(well, they are bigger but can do moves humans can't).
That isn't quite true. The main advantages of infantry are small size, adaptability to terrain (cover, fieldcraft, etc.), relative inexpensiveness, and the ability to counter other infantry. Knightmare Frames aren't very good at any of these roles. Instead, they seem to be employed in as frontline assault units. The main reason they don't get slaughtered by enemy defenses can only be attributed to generous writers. Curiously, they seem to perform very badly in defensive roles - this is the very opposite of the way infantry units work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI
That faster targeting is the main reason ordinary RPGs wouldn't work that well against them - KFs would spot that soldier and kill him before he can take aim.
The speed of targeting isn't really a factor in why infantry are effective. Usually, RPGs are employed defensively, and only when the infantry are in hidden positions. That's why you have to use your own infantry to remove them from those positions. Armor-infantry combined arms operations are very effective, but they aren't nearly so successful if either is fielded by itself. Note that RPGs aren't very effective offensively (you have to get far too close to enemy vehicles to kill them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI
Also, there might be a problem with artillery shots penetrating through its thin armor and exiting on the other side without exploding, doing only minimal damage.
It's not really an issue. KE penetrators don't explode in the first place, and HEAT and HESH rounds explode right on contact - using thin armor is not a good form of protection against these weapons. Moreover, having really thin armor means that you're now vulnerable to anything from heavy machine guns and up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsI
Btw, what's the minimum height of a KF? Those 4-5 meters are for the "standing" mode, but we did see them fitting into an ordinary room, and that's 3m at most...
They probably wouldn't fit into regular buildings - even if they're physically small enough (which they aren't), the floors wouldn't be able to hold their weight.
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Old 2007-04-06, 14:01   Link #71
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The KFs seem to most closely resemble the helicopter gunship, except they lack the guided missiles that make the gunship a real threat. One must admit though, KFs are far more realistic then other mechas: they're smaller, more manuverable, less omnipowerful, and employ more realistic weapons.
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Old 2007-04-06, 14:18   Link #72
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Agreed. Knightmare Frams remind me of Dreampod 9's Heavy Gears - the main difference being that tanks absolutely wipe the floor against Gears. The only problem is that I get the feeling that the creators are trying to make them seem more like one-man armies. We've already seen some of this with the Lancelot and Gawain, and I get the suspicion that it's going to get worse in the second half.
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Old 2007-04-06, 15:16   Link #73
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I was wondering, does anyone know if the controls for the KFs are in any way plausible? Seems to me that two little control sticks are not going to cut it for controling a humanoid mech.
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Old 2007-04-06, 15:48   Link #74
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Quote:
I was wondering, does anyone know if the controls for the KFs are in any way plausible? Seems to me that two little control sticks are not going to cut it for controling a humanoid mech.
Well thsoe two sticks have a "mouse ball" in them which I assume is one of the main controllers.

Gawain also has two sets of controls.

Quote:
The KFs seem to most closely resemble the helicopter gunship, except they lack the guided missiles that make the gunship a real threat. One must admit though, KFs are far more realistic then other mechas: they're smaller, more manuverable, less omnipowerful, and employ more realistic weapons.
The thing with the KF is that their framework seems to be unrealistic. A lot of the weight seems to be in the torso and the hump would seem to be an issue to balance out.

Take the Guren for example, there's no way its skinny legs could support its torso (When the skates deploy, there are empty spaces within its legs)

I'm also curious as to how two rollerblades can make such a unit that agile.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:38   Link #75
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The thing with the KF is that their framework seems to be unrealistic. A lot of the weight seems to be in the torso and the hump would seem to be an issue to balance out.

Take the Guren for example, there's no way its skinny legs could support its torso (When the skates deploy, there are empty spaces within its legs)

I'm also curious as to how two rollerblades can make such a unit that agile.
As we pointed out in the past, your answers could be that KMs are extremely, perhaps ridiculously, light. Almost to the point that armour is non-existent, though not quite .

The closest equivalent I can think of is the NOD missile speed-bikes in the original Command & Conquer RTS. Units that can literally run rings around a tank and turn on a dime, armed with moderately damaging missiles, and able to charge though an enemy base almost unharmed. But if it stays still for even a second nearly anything can kill it. A tank can even run it over.
(The nature of the RTS means the bike is not very useful in the game, what with the level of micro needed to even keep the bike alive during an attack. But if each bike, like a KM, is controlled independently by a human pilot, they would be unstoppable.)
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Old 2007-04-06, 21:55   Link #76
4Tran
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Originally Posted by HunterRequiem View Post
I was wondering, does anyone know if the controls for the KFs are in any way plausible? Seems to me that two little control sticks are not going to cut it for controling a humanoid mech.
It doesn't seem to be very realistic, but the underlying assumption behind all humanoid mecha is that they are extremely highly automated. A simple input is thus supposed to translate to complicated actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As we pointed out in the past, your answers could be that KMs are extremely, perhaps ridiculously, light. Almost to the point that armour is non-existent, though not quite .
That's right. At less than 8 tons, a fragile looking drivetrain is supposed to be supporting the full range of motion of a Knightmare Frame. It's horribly vulnerable to damage, but that's the case for the rest of the machine as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The closest equivalent I can think of is the NOD missile speed-bikes in the original Command & Conquer RTS. Units that can literally run rings around a tank and turn on a dime, armed with moderately damaging missiles, and able to charge though an enemy base almost unharmed. But if it stays still for even a second nearly anything can kill it. A tank can even run it over.
(The nature of the RTS means the bike is not very useful in the game, what with the level of micro needed to even keep the bike alive during an attack. But if each bike, like a KM, is controlled independently by a human pilot, they would be unstoppable.)
The only reason such a vehicle can be useful in a game is because the weapon fire in it is ridiculously slow. In the real world, the only way a light-armored vehicle has a chance of surviving is to not get shot at. Even the smallest calibre cannon-fire will destroy most of those lighter vehicles. Speed is no protection because you can't outrun a bullet or a missile.

Tanks, in particular are devastating against lighter armor. The US Army constantly runs wargames to test their combat theories. In a recent simulation, a pair of M1 Abrams with some infantry support held up an entire Stryker Brigade, destroying 25 of them in the process. I believe that a similar result can be expected if the Strykers were replaced with Knightmare Frames.
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Old 2007-04-06, 23:49   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It doesn't seem to be very realistic, but the underlying assumption behind all humanoid mecha is that they are extremely highly automated. A simple input is thus supposed to translate to complicated actions.
I once tried to work out a standard cockpit layout for a humanoid vehicle. I think I managed to get somthing like 20 movement commands out of a complex pair of joysticks and pedals, but I still was unable to lock down enough arm movements, and had to asume most leg movements were automated. This was for just a simple, Mobile Suit style mech that couldn't jump or shift its weight. Think about the number of commands needed to pilot the Guren or the Lancelot.


Quote:
Tanks, in particular are devastating against lighter armor. The US Army constantly runs wargames to test their combat theories. In a recent simulation, a pair of M1 Abrams with some infantry support held up an entire Stryker Brigade, destroying 25 of them in the process. I believe that a similar result can be expected if the Strykers were replaced with Knightmare Frames.
That said, a unit of light combined arms can hold off an attacker for a long time if they have space to their back. I spoke to a retired US Army Lt. Colonel the other day who commanded "Soviet" forces in the Mojave desert where the army trained its upper officers. In the excercise, US forces always loose, the test is to see how long one can hold out. He recalled one such excersise when the US commander lasted for a whole day (most battles were over in a few hours) because he never committed, and caused the Soviet forces heavy casualties.

To pit a striker brigade against a few M1A2s is sort of pointless, considering light troops were never intended to rush a choke point held by heavy armor. By definition, thats the worst thing one could do with their light troops.
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Old 2007-04-07, 14:29   Link #78
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
They probably wouldn't fit into regular buildings - even if they're physically small enough (which they aren't), the floors wouldn't be able to hold their weight.
Actually, during the first few episodes of the series, Lelouch was issuing commands from a stolen Sutherland in a fallen building. So i suppose the floors were able to hold that much?
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Old 2007-04-08, 00:12   Link #79
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Originally Posted by HunterRequiem
To pit a striker brigade against a few M1A2s is sort of pointless, considering light troops were never intended to rush a choke point held by heavy armor. By definition, thats the worst thing one could do with their light troops.
True, but you never know when you might come across a couple of tanks. And it's not necessarily just the question of a choke point; you can't really advance if you can't secure your line of communication, and all attempts to outflank the tanks just ended up with dead Strykers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouji-kun
Actually, during the first few episodes of the series, Lelouch was issuing commands from a stolen Sutherland in a fallen building. So i suppose the floors were able to hold that much?
It means that that particular floor was strong enough, not much more.
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Old 2007-04-08, 00:27   Link #80
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That floor also happened to colapse when the Lancelot and Kallen's KF put their weight on it too. If a building can only support 3 KFs, its not really safe to put KFs in it.

and @ 4Tran: This is why one uses combined arms.
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