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Old 2007-04-07, 19:52   Link #581
Red Herring
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Join Date: Mar 2007
I kind of have an easy major so I can concentrate more on the Japanese. I mean, that isn't why I picked my major, but it is a plus. I'm hoping teach overseas for a few years when I get out.
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Old 2007-04-07, 19:54   Link #582
Islaya
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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I gave up on learning it in school. I got the "books on tape" I can learn it at my own pace and don't have to worry about grades.
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Old 2007-04-07, 20:32   Link #583
FatPianoBoy
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My best advice would be to diversify your learning mediums. I've used a language learning CD-ROM, which got me through basic grammar and basic vocabulary, Hiragana and Katakana. I'd say this is the best tool for starting from scratch.
Kanji is being acquired through a mixture of systematic study and osmosis/dictionary digging.
Naturalness would be covered in anime, manga, and other books that are not written with the aim of teaching Japanese to foreigners, unless you're reading something that was originally written for a Japanese audience and later compiled with vocabulary and grammar assistance. These are usually for intermediate to upper intermediate students, though.

The number one thing that will help you learn the language is exposure. The more you hear and see it used, the more familiar it will become, and the easier it will be to absorb new information.
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Old 2007-04-07, 20:35   Link #584
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Haha, I've been watching anime heavily for over 10 years now and I still dont know much Japanese.
I picked it up in about a year of watching anime Of course, not to its full extent, but with another year of regular learning on my shoulders I now have enough tools to read and understand manga (with the passing help of a dictionary) with no problems at all. But of course, I've always had a knack for picking up languages on my own. For example, the English I'm using right now I learned it for myself, with no one teaching me anything asides some basics from school (and English education at school is one of the worse things you see around here ^^).

Of course, more complex and narrative versions of Japanese prove more difficult to understand. That's why now I'm in my second year of studying Japanese.

Quote:
Kanji is being acquired through a mixture of systematic study and osmosis/dictionary digging.
I've had many problems learning kanji from systematic studying. But that's just me, since I suck when it comes to memory studying. That's why I mainly learn kanji through reading + dictionary. After a couple of times of reading the same kanji a few times in different phrases, it somehow manages to stick in my mind.
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Old 2007-04-07, 20:52   Link #585
FatPianoBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I've had many problems learning kanji from systematic studying. But that's just me, since I suck when it comes to memory studying. That's why I mainly learn kanji through reading + dictionary. After a couple of times of reading the same kanji a few times in different phrases, it somehow manages to stick in my mind.
Ditto, but I still do some formal study if only to say that I am indeed studying and to help boost familiarity.

Some people prefer to study, but I was always that guy who only opened his textbook in class and breezed through every test without ever studying, so I don't really even know how to learn things by rote memorization.
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Old 2007-04-09, 07:48   Link #586
Syaoran
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Does someone know where I can find a list of verbs with their irregular honorific and humble counterparts?
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Old 2007-04-10, 14:59   Link #587
Nervous Venus
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Location: Between a rock and a hard place.
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I'm learning through osmosis, lol. My dad speaks enough daily Japanese, enough to complain about the weather, or that his head hurts, or for us to run down to the store to buy him some car parts. My brother and I speak and read fluently. The only hurdle in my path is kanji. Seems to be a problem with lots of people here. I guess, we all have different ways of taking it in (taking it apart?)

My brother counts strokes and reads Kanji de manga, and he practices writing everyday. I can't. My brain's a sieve. I read a lot of manga, but ones that are furiganaless are starting to nudge me on the shoulders, like " Hey, get it through your thick head!" If I don't learn, I can't read Tenjho Tenge or Honey and Clover the way I want to.

But I've learned to recognize a lot kanji. I may not be able to read it properly, but I at least know what they stand for.

Quote:
Does someone know where I can find a list of verbs with their irregular honorific and humble counterparts?
Verbs don't have a formal, or informal, or honorifics. At least I've never heard of anything like that. Do you mean conjugations?
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Old 2007-04-10, 15:25   Link #588
Syaoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nervous Venus View Post
Verbs don't have a formal, or informal, or honorifics. At least I've never heard of anything like that. Do you mean conjugations?
I meant those irregular verbs that cannot be formed with お+Verbbase+になる or お+Verbbase+する
The ones like:
食べる  めしあがる   いただく
行く   いらっしゃる  まいる
来る   いらっしゃる  まいる
言う   おっしゃる   お言いする
会う   おあいになる  おめにかかる
する   なさる     いたす
・・・
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Old 2007-04-11, 19:18   Link #589
Honey_and_Cleaver
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Right now im only in Advance level 1. I can understand japanese but i not completed it fully. Although i watch a lot of animes, i suck the most in my class. My sensei tells me my japanese is totally rude.
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Old 2007-04-11, 21:48   Link #590
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
I meant those irregular verbs that cannot be formed with お+Verbbase+になる or お+Verbbase+する
The ones like:
食べる  めしあがる   いただく
行く   いらっしゃる  まいる
来る   いらっしゃる  まいる
言う   おっしゃる   お言いする
会う   おあいになる  おめにかかる
する   なさる     いたす
・・・
Ah. There's no such online list that I know of, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
Right now im only in Advance level 1. I can understand japanese but i not completed it fully. Although i watch a lot of animes, i suck the most in my class. My sensei tells me my japanese is totally rude.
Stop watching anime for a little while.

It might help you get out of the habit of speaking like a 16-year old rude boy.
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Old 2007-04-11, 22:07   Link #591
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Stop watching anime for a little while.

It might help you get out of the habit of speaking like a 16-year old rude boy.
I second that. Or, at least, get off the impression that all Japanese people speak like anime characters
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Old 2007-04-11, 22:17   Link #592
FatPianoBoy
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Dropping anime entirely seems a bit extreme to me. I suggest trying to refrain from imitating the speech patterns in anime and instead usuing it for vocabulary reinforcement.

A real problem with politeness arises when teaching foreigners Japanese. Children in Japan speak in a manner that would be considered rude coming from a person who's of age to know better, but a foreigner learning Japanese essentially is a child in that language. This may be why the somewhat impractical 'masu' form of speech is the first taught. Honestly, the only occasions I ever use that form of speech is when meeting someone for the first time (though usually only for the first minute of the conversation) and when offering my opinion/suggestion to someone older than myself. Whether this is technically correct, I don't know, but no one's ever corrected me on it.
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Old 2007-04-11, 22:24   Link #593
WanderingKnight
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Actually, the ~masu form is probably best used in a situation where you're totally stranger to the person and his or her position, that is, a standard way of speaking to someone in the street. Or, at least, that's how I see it.

PS: Our avvies are so similar that it's making me dizzy.
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Old 2007-04-11, 23:16   Link #594
FatPianoBoy
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Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
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Of course, it's useful when needed, but unless you're constantly meeting new people (actually living and working in Japan), you'll rarely use it. In fact, one thing to watch out for is that it can be considered somewhat rude to continue using polite speech with friends, as you may come across as distant. Unless you're a . Then it sounds fine, but male and female speech is a whole new can of worms which I'm not wanting to get into for someone who's still in their first year of Japanese.

Bottom line: Don't shrug off politeness, but don't make yourself crazy over it, either. I've found that being a gaijin will let you get away with just about anything once.

PS: I had mine first :P
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Old 2007-04-12, 01:00   Link #595
tritoch
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Wow, people actually take classes for this? I started learning last Sunday and now I pretty much can read hiragana/katakana and uh a few kanji without fail.

Having someone to talk/write in japanese greatly helps in absorbing vast amounts of information.

On the rudeness, putting ~desu 「です」 or ~masu 「ます」 even once in a phrase makes it not so... rude.
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Old 2007-04-12, 02:44   Link #596
Syaoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage View Post
Ah. There's no such online list that I know of, sorry.
Crap ^^'
Guess I'll have to pick them up when I hear people using keigo then.
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Old 2007-04-12, 06:22   Link #597
Honey_and_Cleaver
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My japanese teacher doesnt get made at me for being totally rude at my japanese. She says it good to absorb japanese culture from animes, it shows tham im well familiar with japanese sounds. When it comes to pronouncing, i have good ear in my class, but not good memory.

Yeah adding masu and desu makes it less rude. Instead of "nei yo", you say "dewa arimasen desuyo"

Actually i find polite japanese sucks, too long and i like how rude japanese tend to sound.

Sometimes i spill out "Attarimai ja nei ka yo!" or "en da?". My teacher just laughs. I think later, i would get screwed for this.
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:23   Link #598
deathreape98
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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Age: 21
moshi-moshi means hi too btw^_^


and, i was wondering. should i learn hira or kanji first?
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Old 2007-04-12, 21:51   Link #599
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
and, i was wondering. should i learn hira or kanji first?
Could you even try learning kanji without knowing hiragana? I'd rather think that's impossible . Where are you getting your sources from?
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Old 2007-04-12, 22:03   Link #600
garra
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that was the best lesson i ever had
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