AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-04-09, 16:34   Link #41
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
If the US steps out of line again, I think that the UN should do something about it... o-o
That's like wishing pigs flew or something like that. Come on, people, let's be serious: when was it that the UN made a critical, decisive move in terms of international politics? Quoting a very close example, the UN has been demanding the UK to reopen the diplomatic dialog with my country concerning the sovereign of the Falkland Islands for over 20 years. And have we seen something useful out of these demands? Nothing, the UK just denied and denied.

The UN is the most superfluous organization I've seen in my entire life, and the fact that it claims international influence makes it more ridiculous.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-09, 18:40   Link #42
Gaiarth
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The South of England
Age: 46
Heck, the UN couldn't even get the US to pay their dues for years, how are they going to pressure them when it comes to something important?
Gaiarth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-09, 21:37   Link #43
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
1) The Brits were not at war with Iran
2) There is some real discrepancies in the maps of territories in that area. The coastlines have changed substantially and the various map bureaus have not necessarily kept up -- also factor in that countries are loathe to give up ocean just because their beaches have eroded away.
3) Since there is no war with Iran, there was no reason for the Brits to start shooting --- by military rules, they were right to let the diplomats figure it out. All the sailors were required to do is survive and keep their hosts in good humor. The complexity is that "Iran" has more than one faction to deal with - the elected government and the religious theocracy.

There are a lot of people who suspect the amount of Brit and US assets in the area amounted to a "Bay of Tonkin" set up (create an incident as an excuse to escalate) but fortunately, at least for the Brits, that does not appear to have been the case.

I *really* suggest anyone review the last hundred or so years of US, Brit, French, and local power behavior in that area as well as become familiar with modern warfare doctrine before they start shooting their mouth off about movie solutions.

edit: it isn't the function of the UN to "keep a leash" on *anyone* ... its an arena where countries can try to solve their problems or use peer pressure on wayward countries without resorting to war. Needless to say, it may be centuries before it really takes hold but it is certainly better than immediately resorting to seeing who has the least brains and most balls. The biggest problem with most world issues is that you've got the moral equivalent of a yard full of 3 year olds who only want the UN when it suits them (and some of those 3 yr olds were the schoolyard bullies for a century or two).
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-09, 22:01   Link #44
Jinto
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
... The biggest problem with most world issues is that you've got the moral equivalent of a yard full of 3 year olds who only want the UN when it suits them (and some of those 3 yr olds were the schoolyard bullies for a century or two).
That comparison holds much truth (if it wasn't a serious problem, one could not help but laugh about it...).
Jinto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-09, 23:17   Link #45
Joojoobees
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Needless to say, it may be centuries before it really takes hold but it is certainly better than immediately resorting to seeing who has the least brains and most balls.
I suppose I should say that I support bringing concerns to the UN. It is a great thing that people have a forum for discussing their grievances instead of rushing to military "options". I just don't have any hope that the UN can influence the behavior of the USA. Maybe the time you foresee will arrive. In the meantime, the UN will be utterly ineffectual at influencing US international behavior.

Maybe I should temper my cynicism with the acknowledgment that any US administration, that wanted to, *could* listen to what the UN tells it, and the result could have a positive impact on America's perception in the community of nations. A sizable group of Americans, however, will continue to elect presidents who dismiss or denigrate the United Nations. There are large groups of Americans who actually believe that the UN is the vehicle that Satan will use to take over the world. One of the political parties has an institutional incentive to keep those people ignorant and fearful, as that is a major factor in their performance at the polls.

I'm glad you are hopeful about the future of humanity. I would like to believe that in a few hundred years we will be able to work together more often than not. My personal belief, however, is that we don't have it in us. In all honesty, I think America will only restrain itself because it will start ripping itself apart. I don't think the international community will come up with a way to work together to address any of the big issues we are facing, and it will be a minor miracle if humanity even survives another two hundred years.
Joojoobees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-10, 00:50   Link #46
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
No, I have to live with the people you describe.... :P (actually I see you do too if your location of USA is accurate ).
They're not too different from the nasty people anywhere in the world who hate anything "different". The best I hope for is to keep them as ineffectual as possible (whatever country they reside in). Jefferson's greatest fear was that his great experiment could only survive with a well-educated population not infected with religious intolerance.... ... other than that I'll just say people should read what those guys actually wrote before they jump all over me with their bogus revisionism

I manage to be both amazingly cynical and hopeful at the same time that if we cannot "grow up" as a species, perhaps we'll be able to at least isolate that 20% or so into their own little areas where they can hate each other to death
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-10, 01:44   Link #47
Joojoobees
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
No, I have to live with the people you describe.... :P (actually I see you do too if your location of USA is accurate ).
Painfully accurate, yes.
Quote:
Jefferson's greatest fear was that his great experiment could only survive with a well-educated population not infected with religious intolerance....
Jefferson was a smart guy. Unfortunately his worst fears seem to have occurred.
Quote:
I manage to be both amazingly cynical and hopeful at the same time that if we cannot "grow up" as a species, perhaps we'll be able to at least isolate that 20% or so into their own little areas where they can hate each other to death
Well the real problem is that the "20%" is going to hate a lot of other people to death along with them.
Joojoobees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-10, 02:18   Link #48
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Pardon me while I take a moment beat my head against any book by R. Dawkins to avoid saying some things that I'd just rather not get into on a forum.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-10, 06:03   Link #49
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
Jefferson was a smart guy. Unfortunately his worst fears seem to have occurred.
Where is an RPG when I need it? WHERE!?

Someone should demolish that goddamn university.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-12, 13:30   Link #50
Zeytoo0
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wakefield, UK
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to Zeytoo0
Hmm, some people really are ignorant when it comes to this. Those who said they should have died or fought back against the Iranians are just dumb - want to know why?

1: The fight was 6 heavily armed fast attack boats vs two British dinghys loaded with marines, they were in no shape for a fight on that scale.

2: The helicopter that was assigned to protect them was on bingo fuel and had to return to the HMS Cornwall.

3. Were not at war with Iran.

If they had fought and, somehow, won, then what would have happened? The Iranians have a fully fledged air force of over a hundred planes ready to go at a moments notice - we had no way of fighting that kind of force, not to mention we didn't want a war in the first place.

Handing themselves over was the best choice for everybody, it spared needless bloodshed and stopped the situation escalating into something more.
__________________
Favs - #1: Code Geass #2: Koi Kaze #3: Death Note #4: The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya #5: Cowboy Bebop #6: Nodame Cantibile #7: Monster #8: Rumbling Hearts #9: Elfen Lied
Zeytoo0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-12, 16:46   Link #51
Sety
Lost in your Eyes~~~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
My issue is more on that the whole predicament was far too overdramatized. Seriously when it happened it was as if there was nothing else to report. Secondly, why should they be allowed to sell their 'stories' for 6 figure sums when you have god knows how many families with dead relatives who have to end up living off compensation.

Some may have felt they were acting hostile towards the UK but can you blame them? If you saw some of the shit they printed in the media over here during that time I would feel like taking advantage of it. Along with the general tensions over there due to UK and US's recent few years exerting of their power.

The fact they're all alive and healthy is already far more than enough compensation. Basically in all I felt the handling of the actual situation was appropiately handled but some of the reactions were no different from a bunch of 4 year olds on a playground. It was literally 'admit your wrong' retorted by 'lol no ur face.' The decisions afterwards and the need to treat them like heroes is nothing short of faggotry as well.
__________________
I'M IN DESPAIR~~!
Sety is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-13, 12:25   Link #52
Xellos-_^
Married
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeytoo0 View Post
2: The helicopter that was assigned to protect them was on bingo fuel and had to return to the HMS Cornwall.
I got this form foxnews so iam taking it with a grain of salt but it was report by fox that the Captain of the HMS Cornwall didn't have permission to rescue the sailors when the Iranian were closing in and he had to call into London to get permission and permission was denied.

Anyone want to clear this up?



Quote:
If they had fought and, somehow, won, then what would have happened? The Iranians have a fully fledged air force of over a hundred planes ready to go at a moments notice - we had no way of fighting that kind of force,
The US and British Airforce would have wipeout the Iranian airforce in 3 hrs. The irianians were flying planes form sold to them by US in the 70s. The Iranian Airforce is not a threat.

The Iranians were probably want war less then west do, they knew Bush was just aching to take them on. They could ahve hurt the US army more then the iraqi army did but they would have still have loss in a straight up fight.

Quote:
not to mention we didn't want a war in the first place.
WW2 could have been avoid or delay if the British and French show tougher oppsition to hitler.


Quote:
Handing themselves over was the best choice for everybody, it spared needless bloodshed and stopped the situation escalating into something more.

Maybe or handing themselves over without a fight shows the rest of the terrorist that the west doesn't have the stomach for a real fight.
__________________
Xellos-_^ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-13, 12:59   Link #53
monir
cho~ kakkoii
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joojoobees View Post
I've got my first laugh of the day, for which I thank you very much. Death to fifth ammendment.
__________________
Eat and sleep! And Solace. Sig by RRW.
Space Brothers Executive member of the ASS. Ready to flee at the first sign of trouble.
monir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-04-13, 14:41   Link #54
Kamui4356
Aria Company
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
I got this form foxnews so iam taking it with a grain of salt but it was report by fox that the Captain of the HMS Cornwall didn't have permission to rescue the sailors when the Iranian were closing in and he had to call into London to get permission and permission was denied.

Anyone want to clear this up?
Don't know the doctrine they were operating under, but it sounds reasonable. I doubt it was a direct call though.

Quote:
The US and British Airforce would have wipeout the Iranian airforce in 3 hrs. The irianians were flying planes form sold to them by US in the 70s. The Iranian Airforce is not a threat.
Don't be so quick to dismiss the Iranian airforce. Those planes in question are F-14s. The only reason the US navy retired the F-14 is theirs were at the end of their service life. As a result maintanince costs were spiraling out of control and there were safety issues.

The Iranian F-14s on the other hand were mostly rendered inoperable when the US left Iran, and only recently put back in service. It's estimated they have 44 of them in service currently. They may be old, but they have little airtime. The question is their avionics. Most of the fleet was scavenged for parts to keep a few operational. Now those scavenged air frames are being restored and put back into service. Even those few that were operation the entire time were used sparingly, so have little time on their airframes.

If the Iranians have managed to restore them to full capability, they're a very formidable aircraft, able to simultaneously engage 6-8 targets. In that case, we could be looking at the worst air losses since vietnam. However, if they only got them to the point where they can fly and shoot off a missile for show, they arent' much of a threat.

Quote:
The Iranians were probably want war less then west do, they knew Bush was just aching to take them on. They could ahve hurt the US army more then the iraqi army did but they would have still have loss in a straight up fight.
Based on the actions Iran has been taking lately, it seems at least some factions of their government does want a war. Remember, Iran is controlled by a fundamentilist regime. If they believe god is on their side, they'll believe they can win no matter what the situation looks like.

Also, once air superiority is achieved, the Iranian army won't put up any more of a fight than the Iraqi army did.

Quote:
WW2 could have been avoid or delay if the British and French show tougher oppsition to hitler.
Germany didn't invade other countries just because they wanted to conquer the world. They had to invade to sieze the treasuries to pay for their military and economic expansion. All those tanks and planes weren't free, they had to pay for them some how. Pre-WWII Germany was an example of deficit spending the likes of which even Reagen and Bush combined couldn't match.

No matter how much pressure England and France put on Germany, they still would have invaded. Maybe it wouldn't have become a world war if they had gotten involved before poland, but it still would have been a costly one.


Quote:
Maybe or handing themselves over without a fight shows the rest of the terrorist that the west doesn't have the stomach for a real fight.
Or maybe it'll show them there are some people in the chain of command who aren't eager to blow everything straight to hell. As for the west not having the stomach for a real fight, terrorists already believe that. No matter what we do they'll continue to believe that.

Really I don't see how that line of thinking is any different than a little kid who keeps getting into fights so the other kids don't think he's a wuss.
__________________
Kamui4356 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.